Pet Hates!

[kirsten]

What about when women harass men, is that ok? Should I be allowed to taser the women who slapped my arse in the club last weekend?

 

No, that isn't okay, but I also didn't see that on my way home today so I didn't post about it, and obviously my last comment was pretty flippant. I can't help but feel you've missed the point of the rest of my post somewhat. The women who did that had no right to touch you without your permission and I hope you called them up on it, but I really doubt that that situation (and please correct me if I'm wrong) has since made you wary of women you don't know in day-to-day life or intimidated by being on your own. This is a real problem that 50% of the population face.

Is this going to become a "international women's day? What about international men's day?" type conversation, because if it is, I want to bail before it begins.

[Skacel]

No, that isn't okay, but I also didn't see that on my way home today so I didn't post about it, and obviously my last comment was pretty flippant. I can't help but feel you've missed the point of the rest of my post somewhat. The women who did that had no right to touch you without your permission and I hope you called them up on it, but I really doubt that that situation (and please correct me if I'm wrong) has since made you wary of women you don't know in day-to-day life or intimidated by being on your own. This is a real problem that 50% of the population face.

Is this going to become a "international women's day? What about international men's day?" type conversation, because if it is, I want to bail before it begins.

I just wanted to point out that it goes both ways, that is all.

[Skacel]

I just realised I'm missing this weeks Fargo so now I'm really pissed off.

[Alkaline]

No, that isn't okay, but I also didn't see that on my way home today so I didn't post about it, and obviously my last comment was pretty flippant. I can't help but feel you've missed the point of the rest of my post somewhat. The women who did that had no right to touch you without your permission and I hope you called them up on it, but I really doubt that that situation (and please correct me if I'm wrong) has since made you wary of women you don't know in day-to-day life or intimidated by being on your own. This is a real problem that 50% of the population face.

Is this going to become a "international women's day? What about international men's day?" type conversation, because if it is, I want to bail before it begins.

The sooner people start thinking outside the concept of gender in general the better in my opinion. Why does it matter that it was a woman? It shouldn't be happening to anyone.

[kirsten]

The sooner people start thinking outside the concept of gender in general the better in my opinion. Why does it matter that it was a woman? It shouldn't be happening to anyone.

 

I don't think anyone would argue against that (except those who are committing assault). You're right that it shouldn't happen to anyone, but in this instance, I genuinely believe it wouldn't have happened to a man.

These occurrences are depressingly common for women and I'm not trying to say they don't happen to men at all, but they are less prevalent and also there's genuinely no history of men's oppression under women. I don't want to discredit any stories men might have about being sexually assaulted and it is important that these are also heard, but it is undeniable that women face greater harrassment and abuse on a daily basis. We are currently living in a world where there are literally women being killed for having the audacity to refuse to sleep with men (while being labelled "sluts" if they do). That is terrifying. The recent shootings in America were met by people expressing sympathy for the gunman because his motive was that he had been rejected too many times. We are now living in a world where you're no longer thinking "How can I say that I don't want to sleep with this man without hurting his feelings?", but "How can I say that I don't want to sleep with this man without him shooting me in the face?" For the time being, as far as I can make out, it's not really a problem that men are going to be facing. Obviously it shouldn't be happening to anyone of any gender, but it is predominately happening to one of them and nobody can ignore that.

That is where we're at. That is fucked up.

[Alkaline]

[Old Gold]

That's my point though, we should be encouraging children and young adults to not see gender in that way and instead to respect people as people regardless of gender or race or whatever. That should be the focus, and by its nature would improve things for women.

 

I don't think anyone would disagree with that, but I daresay that you've implied yourself with that sentence that gender attitudes are currently biased against women.

[Alkaline]

I don't think anyone would disagree with that, but I daresay that you've implied yourself with that sentence that gender attitudes are currently biased against women.

Sorry, I was just using that to highlight a change but obviously it would benefit all parties.

[kirsten]

[colb]

Saying someone has a great ass is objectification, though, even if they don't hear you or you say it in the comfort of your own home when nobody else is around. Everyone is guilty of objectifying others, women included.

 

I don't think it is. I'd say that defining someone by how great their ass is, and nothing else - is objectification.

 

Everything else you've said I agree with 100% but I think that this situation is too complicated and there are too many schools of thought on objectification to make such a blanket statement.

Edited June 9, 2014 by colb

[ca_gere]

I don't think anyone would argue against that (except those who are committing assault). You're right that it shouldn't happen to anyone, but in this instance, I genuinely believe it wouldn't have happened to a man.

These occurrences are depressingly common for women and I'm not trying to say they don't happen to men at all, but they are less prevalent and also there's genuinely no history of men's oppression under women. I don't want to discredit any stories men might have about being sexually assaulted and it is important that these are also heard, but it is undeniable that women face greater harrassment and abuse on a daily basis. We are currently living in a world where there are literally women being killed for having the audacity to refuse to sleep with men (while being labelled "sluts" if they do). That is terrifying. The recent shootings in America were met by people expressing sympathy for the gunman because his motive was that he had been rejected too many times. We are now living in a world where you're no longer thinking "How can I say that I don't want to sleep with this man without hurting his feelings?", but "How can I say that I don't want to sleep with this man without him shooting me in the face?" For the time being, as far as I can make out, it's not really a problem that men are going to be facing. Obviously it shouldn't be happening to anyone of any gender, but it is predominately happening to one of them and nobody can ignore that.

That is where we're at. That is fucked up.

 

My current pet hate is this incident being used in serious discussions about the objectification of women. Some women were killed by an insane person whose illness was hugely exacerbated by his lack of success with women. It's a pity the severe mental illness part gets swept under the carpet because it suits the 'it's part of a broader problem' debate. His misogyny was a large factor and clearly fueled the killings but the fact is it wouldn't have happened if a) his mental illness had been correctly dealt with (see all the comments about people 'not being surprised' he did something like this, b) gun laws were tighter and c) there wasn't this horrible, almost sexualization of lone gunmen in the media.

 

Shooting sprees are (almost) always carried out by dudes but surprisingly very few are related to sex (or the lack thereof) specifically. 

Edited June 9, 2014 by ca_gere

[ca_gere]

edit: I'm not saying there doesn't exist a huge problem with misogyny in the world. There does.

[ca_gere]

I was going to write out a proper reply to this discussion but it just came across hugely misanthropic and kinda depressing. Here's the jist:

 

Sleazy pick up artists who objectify women = cunts

Militant feminists who do more to segregate sexes than bring equality = equally cunts

The fact that you seem to not be able to sit somewhere in between without feeling like you're in the wrong = sad

 

The squeakiest wheel gets the most oil and I feel this has led to there being a wrongly polarized narrative in the gender equality debate. I don't fit neatly into any LAD template and most women I know don't adhere to the #YESALLWOMEN ideal. I don't feel like a 'poof' because Im not cat-calling or pounding vaginas every night (sometimes I just prefer a cuddle) nor does my girlfriend feel any affinity to the huge swathes of numpties who band together to point out instances where men should 'check their privilege'. Any time you split the population down the middle it leads to the sensible, level-headed majority (or maybe it's not the majority, i dunno) being forgotten about. I'm ALL about equality but unfortunately the 'face' of these types of issues is always fucking annoying and something I don't identify with. Point is, I hate everyone equally. I think.

[The Milner]

I do really hate the point that the crazy guy who shot a heap of people somehow shows the inequality between men and women, it really doesnt, it was a person with mental health problems who went out shooting people, it really had very little to do with women specifically, even if he put that video up on youtube. 

[Old Gold]

I presume you hate the interpretation because it somehow detracts from the recognizing of his mental illness, as opposed to you apparently being pure greetin' that someone would mistake the murderer for a sexist.

[ca_gere]

Not sure how well my post came across but to clarify, I think there are lots of worthy causes promoting equality and it's important that everyone chips in and does their bit because there are real issues to be addressed. I just have no desire to be pigeon-holed one way or the another. To put it crudely, you can love fanny AND be sensitive to feminine issues.

[kirsten]

My current pet hate is this incident being used in serious discussions about the objectification of women. Some women were killed by an insane person whose illness was hugely exacerbated by his lack of success with women. It's a pity the severe mental illness part gets swept under the carpet because it suits the 'it's part of a broader problem' debate. His misogyny was a large factor and clearly fueled the killings but the fact is it wouldn't have happened if a) his mental illness had been correctly dealt with (see all the comments about people 'not being surprised' he did something like this, b) gun laws were tighter and c) there wasn't this horrible, almost sexualization of lone gunmen in the media.

 

Shooting sprees are (almost) always carried out by dudes but surprisingly very few are related to sex (or the lack thereof) specifically. 

 

I think mental health is always going to play its part when shootings like these occur, and it is vital that more information and help needs to be available to anyone who needs it to prevent things like this from happening. The thing I find troubling about this incident is the reaction there has been from a large number who are holding up this man as a martyr for "men's rights". The attitude of many commenters is what has led people to become vocal about this being a gender issue. The guy shot a bunch of people and then killed himself. No matter what the motives, you'd think that everyone would agree that this is a horrible thing to have happened, but as well as that, we've got this to contend with...

These people themselves might not necessarily own guns or have mental health concerns, but the fact that what they're saying is "these women should have just fucked this poor guy and this never would have happened" and by them saying that, it is breeding other people to think it's okay to say the same. Same with the fact that anyone can play the "lols I was only joking online when I said that!" thing, but it perpetuates this fucking ridiculous way of thinking.

[ca_gere]

I presume you hate the interpretation because it somehow detracts from the recognizing of his mental illness, as opposed to you apparently being pure greetin' that someone would mistake the murderer for a sexist.

 

There are loads of issues at play with a shooting of this type and I think it's dangerous to use any as a societal yardstick. The guy was sexist, but he was also fucking nuts. 

[ca_gere]

I think mental health is always going to play its part when shootings like these occur, and it is vital that more information and help needs to be available to anyone who needs it to prevent things like this from happening. The thing I find troubling about this incident is the reaction there has been from a large number who are holding up this man as a martyr for "men's rights". The attitude of many commenters is what has led people to become vocal about this being a gender issue. The guy shot a bunch of people and then killed himself. No matter what the motives, you'd think that everyone would agree that this is a horrible thing to have happened, but as well as that, we've got this to contend with...

These people themselves might not necessarily own guns or have mental health concerns, but the fact that what they're saying is "these women should have just fucked this poor guy and this never would have happened" and by them saying that, it is breeding other people to think it's okay to say the same. Same with the fact that anyone can play the "lols I was only joking online when I said that!" thing, but it perpetuates this fucking ridiculous way of thinking.

 

This is all very sad.

[Alkaline]

I fully understand that that's your point, that's why I've picked up on it and acknowledged it in my reply and even hinted at the same thing in my initial post ("Why is this allowed to happen? Why is nobody teaching people that this isn't okay?" - I even said "people" and not "men") so I don't understand why you've, perhaps inadvertently, turned this into a debate about something else in the process and why I, as a woman, am having to justify to a man that sexism still exists.

 

 

 

I think people have realised that it isn't okay to be openly sexist or misogynistic, on the whole, however I'm not sure if that's indicative of a vast improvement in society. What you've said here with your example is that there used to be sexual crimes that went unreported, now there are still sexual crimes but more people are reporting them so that's improvement. Obviously, the massive problem is still that these sexual crimes shouldn't be happening and if the reason things are marginally better lies with the victims rather than the perpetrator, is that really improvement?

 

 

 

I don't think I've painted all women as anything, to be honest. I mentioned historical oppression, which is undeniable, but I think that's the extent of it.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by women who "openly use their sexuality" and don't want to put words in your mouth or respond to something you don't mean, but am I correct in assuming you mean the way they dress or do you mean something else?

I know that not all men go around having to resist the urge to sexually harrass women, but again, I've never said that in any of my posts. None of the men I know are like this, but I'm not going to ignore the fact that a huge number are and a big part of this relates to your initial point, that they haven't been educated properly to know that they can't get always get what they want and that other people aren't their playthings. You don't have to be feeling women up without their permission to perpetuate the culture we currently live in. I'm sure several men would see touching a woman they don't know without being allowed to as going too far and would never dream of doing it, but would still catcall a woman in the street and not see how that could have any negative consequences. One thing that both men and women can be guilty of that needs to change is that, while they won't explicitly do anything to cause physical or emotional harm to anybody, they'll see that a woman dressing in a certain way or drinking or dancing or walking home on a dark night is "asking for it" if she's raped or attacked. It troubles me more when women say this than when men do. It's that age-old line of "why are we teaching girls how to dress and not teaching boys not to rape them?"

 

 

 

Again, I have not told you or anyone to apologise for finding someone attractive, all I've done is witness a situation that I found shitty and posted about it in the thread designated for doing so. It's bleak how that has led to this conversation as it makes me feel like I'm being reactionary and unreasonable for finding a disgusting, misogynistic act deplorable and expressing disdain for it on the internet.

Saying someone has a great ass is objectification, though, even if they don't hear you or you say it in the comfort of your own home when nobody else is around. Everyone is guilty of objectifying others, women included. Men aren't painted as perverts these days but they are treated like that's how they should be, for example, there was a recent comparison of magazine covers (I think it was GQ but can't find it...) from the last few months where all of the men were fully clothed and in poses that made them look powerful and admirable, whereas the women were all in revealing or little clothing in sexualised positions.  If you believe that the media is skewed in women's favour, then you need to open your eyes a bit more.

I've not asked you to justify the existence of sexism. I'm not sure why you think you have to?

With regard to sex crimes I actually believe there are less of them than there used to be. The fact that more are reported doesn't necessarily mean that there's more being committed.

Are you saying there are no women out there that use their sexuality (be it their looks, promiscuity or whatever) to illicit a response from men or other women? If you are you're very naive.

You're probably going to have to work through that feeling of being reactionary yourself because it certainly wasn't my intention to make you feel like that. I just thought your initial rant and the posts that followed were a little bit OTT in the way they came across.

I'm completely against the concept of feminism because it implies that there is more of a natural divide than there is and it's often more counterproductive and divisive and detracts from the issues at hand by encouraging an unwarranted militant response.

Your last point doesn't make much sense either as I'm not talking about magazine covers and the way women are represented in print media. It's very much an all men are potential rapists/ child abuser vibe from the media these days.

[Scootray]

This whole page...tl;dr.

More silly pet hates please.

[James Broonbreed]

Was about to post the exact same thing. Exactly.

[kirsten]

I've not asked you to justify the existence of sexism. I'm not sure why you think you have to?

 

Because I posted on here, the PET HATES thread about something I hate and rather than going "Oh, fair enough, that's a really shitty thing to have happened. Some people are dicks." or even just not saying anything, you said "Why does it matter that it was a woman? It shouldn't be happening to anyone." and I answered (and agreed!), but you replied and continued the direction of discourse with reference to "things being better than they were for women" which has in turn led me to feel like I'm justifying the existence of sexism. I don't think you're so naive as to believe that everything is sorted nowadays and that women are absolutely treated as equal to men, but you asked and I answered. Things aren't easy these days.

 

 

With regard to sex crimes I actually believe there are less of them than there used to be. The fact that more are reported doesn't necessarily mean that there's more being committed.

 

How can you be sure of that if so many went unreported in the past?

 

 

Are you saying there are no women out there that use their sexuality (be it their looks, promiscuity or whatever) to illicit a response from men or other women? If you are you're very naive.

 

I genuinely haven't said that anywhere. Go back and read what I said. You were vague and I asked you to clarify, which you still haven't really done. If men or women want to dress in a certain way in order to attract someone, fair enough. If men or women want to dress in a certain way to make themselves feel more confident or whatever, also fair enough. What crosses the line is when the way someone is dressed is interpreted as them being "fair game" (both sexes) and they are treated as an object for someone else to do what they like with.

 

 

You're probably going to have to work through that feeling of being reactionary yourself because it certainly wasn't my intention to make you feel like that. I just thought your initial rant and the posts that followed were a little bit OTT in the way they came across.

 

Within two sentences here you've said "I didn't intend you to make you feel like you were being reactionary" and also "your posts were over-the-top". So, which are you going to go with?

 

 

I'm completely against the concept of feminism because it implies that there is more of a natural divide than there is and it's often more counterproductive and divisive and detracts from the issues at hand by encouraging an unwarranted militant response.

 

You are completely against feminism. I can't believe I'm having to resort to dictionary definitions here, but feminism is "the advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes." That is what you're completely against. From what I can gather from previous posts you've made on here, you have a wife and I think a young daughter, yet you're "against" feminism?

I object to 'feminism' being thought of as a dirty word. Feminism does not mean 'hatred of men' or 'making a fuss out of nothing'. It exists for a reason.

Your sentence "it implies there is more of a natural divide than there is" goes back to your first point and is why I am having to justify the existence of sexism. You're implying that it is a smaller problem than it is.

[Alkaline]

Because I posted on here, the PET HATES thread about something I hate and rather than going "Oh, fair enough, that's a really shitty thing to have happened. Some people are dicks." or even just not saying anything, you said "Why does it matter that it was a woman? It shouldn't be happening to anyone." and I answered (and agreed!), but you replied and continued the direction of discourse with reference to "things being better than they were for women" which has in turn led me to feel like I'm justifying the existence of sexism. I don't think you're so naive as to believe that everything is sorted nowadays and that women are absolutely treated as equal to men, but you asked and I answered. Things aren't easy these days.

 

 

 

How can you be sure of that if so many went unreported in the past?

 

 

 

I genuinely haven't said that anywhere. Go back and read what I said. You were vague and I asked you to clarify, which you still haven't really done. If men or women want to dress in a certain way in order to attract someone, fair enough. If men or women want to dress in a certain way to make themselves feel more confident or whatever, also fair enough. What crosses the line is when the way someone is dressed is interpreted as them being "fair game" (both sexes) and they are treated as an object for someone else to do what they like with.

 

 

 

Within two sentences here you've said "I didn't intend you to make you feel like you were being reactionary" and also "your posts were over-the-top". So, which are you going to go with?

 

 

 

You are completely against feminism. I can't believe I'm having to resort to dictionary definitions here, but feminism is "the advocacy of women's rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes." That is what you're completely against. From what I can gather from previous posts you've made on here, you have a wife and I think a young daughter, yet you're "against" feminism?

I object to 'feminism' being thought of as a dirty word. Feminism does not mean 'hatred of men' or 'making a fuss out of nothing'. It exists for a reason.

Your sentence "it implies there is more of a natural divide than there is" goes back to your first point and is why I am having to justify the existence of sexism. You're implying that it is a smaller problem than it is.

Things are a lot easier now for women than they used to be.

Because a lot of behaviours that were exhibited by many men in the 70s and 80s are no longer present in the majority of men now. There's been no backwards step, although things aren't maybe moving on as quickly as they could be, granted, but a lot has to do with the way that both extreme sides of the argument deal with things that happen. Those of us that manage to get by without being chauvinistic or being the old Knight in White Armour cliche that many men (there are some examples of that on here for sure) fall into the trap of are lumped into the more negative of the two extremes by society.

Why do you keep making it about how people dress? I have clarified it. There are plenty of women that use their sexuality to their advantage: models, actresses, singers and musicians, what about that can't you see? I shouldn't have to give example on that as it's pretty obvious.

Sorry, I agree with you there. I maybe should've used the word current in front of concept of feminism. Feminism by its definition is fine but the way it's handled by the few (not the majority) that I'm against.

Also, my daughter will be brought up to not be narrow minded and see people as people not genders, stereotypes, races, religions etc.

[James Broonbreed]

Is this maybe worth a separate thread?