Promoting in Aberdeen:

[Flash@TMB]

1.If there's no money to be made in live music' date=' then Al and Rob have really fucked up giving me this opportunity.[/quote']

Jamesy you are a promoter, not an accountant. If the bank balance goes up then you are making money. And if the bank balance goes down... That's how we keep score.

We've had over 2000 people through the door into shows in the last week' date=' and I recognised hardly any of them[/quote'].

There's a lesson in there.

[Moshulu Rob]

Jamesy you are a promoter' date=' not an accountant. If the bank balance goes up then you are making money. And if the bank balance goes down... That's how we keep score.

.

There's a lesson in there.[/quote']

To be fair to Jamesy, I make him do a profit and loss sheet for each and every gig he puts on either here or in the tunnels, so he knows exactly how much money he makes or loses at each show he does.

[Jamesy]

Jamesy you are a promoter' date=' not an accountant. If the bank balance goes up then you are making money. And if the bank balance goes down... That's how we keep score. [/Quote']

If you were a promoter then you'd know all about cosings, budgets and settlements, ken? In black and white, I know exactly, what's offered, what's paid and what's made, it's part of the job description innit? It's not all about sticking up a couple of posters charlie...

.

There's a lesson in there.

No lesson mate, just a desire to spreading the wings and bringing in some kick ass up and coming touring acts that sell themselves.

[Cloud]

To be fair to Jamesy' date=' I make him do a profit and loss sheet for each and every gig he puts on either here or in the tunnels, so he knows exactly how much money he makes or loses at each show he does.[/quote']

Everyone should do such a thing, in my opinion.

Incidentally, I have no idea if this has been posted before, but it's a rather fascinating read.

http://www.scottishmusicdirectory.com/pdf/finalreport2702.pdf

Obviously it's a bit out of date, but it's still worth a browse.

[ben_1903]

Jamesy - you bring a hell of a lot of gigs to aberdeen, and i think the scene is better for it BUT - don't you think it's a bnit monopolising do resevre 'gigs in aberdeen' on myspace just for rfr promotions? After all - myspace isa free service, and for the good for the locao music scene, perhaps you should put up other gigs if people send you the details?

AS for profit and loss sheets - isn't that standard practice? Keep books and finance details etc...Anyone who doesn't is being unorganised and sloppy.

[Flash@TMB]

If you were a promoter then you'd know all about cosings' date=' budgets and settlements, ken? In black and white, I know exactly, what's offered, what's paid and what's made, it's part of the job description innit? It's not all about sticking up a couple of posters charlie...[/quote']

Thanks for the information on profit and loss accounts Jamesy, I'll print that out and take it to my next board meeting Let's not forget that you've been doing this for a whole 6 months. You the big cheese now eh?

***

In order to test your money making theory, I had a quick look on Companies House website. Ended up pulling the books for a couple of prolific Scottish music promotions companies (this cost £1 each BTW).

The first one included rolled up figures from 6 bars and clubs which are all part of the same group, so it didn't provide a clear indication of revenues from promotions activity. Their net profit margin was 8.7%, meaning they generate £1.17M in profits from a turnover of £13.44M. This was their best ever year, but take into account that they benefit from considerable economies of scale. My guess that most of their profits came from bar takings...

The other company was purely promotions (on a grand scale BTW). This did not include any bars or clubs. They had published abbreviated accounts, so turnover wasn't given. Their debt (yes that's debt) currently stands at £225K, compared with £345K last year, so it would appear they made £120K of profit... this year. And that's from putting on much bigger gigs that you LOL.

EDIT: I deliberately left out the company names. If anyone wants to check for themselves the address is: http://wck2.companieshouse.gov.uk

There you go Cloud - endless hours of fun and amusement for you.

[Moshulu Rob]

I treat live music as an added extra to the bar and nightclub. Ie, all my budgets, cashflows etc include no live music as it's difficult to project exactly how many and how busy gigs will be from month to month.

Therefore, whne we do do shows, the only overhead I include is Jamesy's salary, as all other overheads are covered in the bar and club P&L's. In this sense gigs are profitable overall, (obviously some lose and some gain money)

However, if gigs was all we did, we'd be shut tomorrow.

PS I'm assuming you looked up DF and CPL no?

[trippinoneastereggs]

There's a lesson in there.

what exactly is the lesson? Surelly if 2000 people come through the door pay money to see live gigs then Jamesy is going his job? Or should promotion in aberdeen just for locals who always attend their gigs?

If so well done for keeping those gigs and wasting money only admitting people you already know.

[stuartmaxwell]

what exactly is the lesson? Surelly if 2000 people come through the door pay money to see live gigs then Jamesy is going his job? Or should promotion in aberdeen just for locals who always attend their gigs?

If so well done for keeping those gigs and wasting money only admitting people you already know.

o_O

i think you might have picked that one up wrong?

earlier he was talking about just that

[stuartmaxwell]

Although I'm not really looking to get overly involved in this' date=' I'll add a few things.

1. Flash - We've had over 2000 people through the door into shows in the last week, and I recognised hardly any of them, whereas I reckon I know a high % of the Ab-Music regulars, gone are the days where you could predict who'd be at what show, it's bigscale.

[/quote']

bang on, its a great example of th epoitn i was trying to make earlier

2. Postering - it works, provided some dickhead doesn;t take down your posters 5 minutes after they've been put up. Also, dont be stupid enough to hand your posters over the counter to someone in a shop that says they'll put them up for you. It'll never happen, they'll end up in the bin, do it yourself.

very frustrating when it hapens

3. PR Companies - Recently, I've had to look to using PR companies due to the volume of shows going on. I've gave 50-100 posters per show, and 5000 of my booklets to get distributed. I can honestly say that the only ones that I've actually seen are ones that I sorted out myself. It's a lot better to get someone you trust to do it, and to sort out a list of sites yourself, or to sit down with a PR company and let them know that you'll be chasing up their work, and what you want done exactly to a tee.

exactly

anytime you have some posters to go up, give us a shout. we get around 50 or so up round town. two birds one stone etc. for a nominal fee of course. thats the same for any other fowk putting on gigs

5. Local press - Aberdeen Journals will list shows, do previews of what they want, and if you provide pictures of bands, they'll print them in the listings, they're pretty good with it.

yup, they have been excellent at giving our shows coverage in the EE

6. Myspace is one of the best things that's ever happened to live music.

yup, more people are starting to put gigs on, more bands are being found, more gig swaps being made, better relationships, people are being kept in the know and its perfect for 7 day reminders in the run up to a gig if they have missed it

i think the very fact that we are discussing these issues on multiple threads here show that aberdeen has come a helluva long way in recent years. its awesome amd long may it continue.

all over the uk this "indie" scene thing has kept goign from strength to strength (surprisingly) and more mainstream punters are getting into their music deeper and more seriously. i think we all started out listening to the olden day equivalents of coldplay, oasis etc

[trippinoneastereggs]

o_O

i think you might have picked that one up wrong?

earlier he was talking about just that

sorry, probably read it wrong, I've been drinking.

[stuartmaxwell]

drinking is good

[trippinoneastereggs]

drinking is good

indeed, although I should refrain from posting when I have been as I usually talk utter pish.

[Guest MKII]

indeed' date=' although I should refrain from posting when I have been as I usually talk utter pish.[/quote']

Hey, EVERYONE does at some point!

[Flash@TMB]

I treat live music as an added extra to the bar and nightclub. Ie' date=' all my budgets, cashflows etc include no live music as it's difficult to project exactly how many and how busy gigs will be from month to month.[/quote']

Yeah it's tricky to attribute exact costs in these instances. I go through the motions of the calculations, just to see where we stand, although we swallow the additional costs rather than passing them on to the promoters.

***

Although it's always fun to cross swords with Jamesy, that's not why I'm contributing to this thread

Yes the posters are a good idea, and they do have an impact. But IMO it's hypocritical to expect the council to permit fly posting, or even create a special area for fly posting, when there are still places that will not agree to cross posting! So come on everyone, let's eliminate that can of worms first...

...which brings us back to the real issue. Aberdeen is in fairly a unique situation in that all of it's venues (with the exception of Chicago Rock LMAO) are in the hands of local independent operators. The potential is there to really do something that would have an enormous impact. Furthermore nobody has to seek (and be denied) permission from a head office in order to participate.

I strongly believe that the ALL the promoters and venues should conciously work together, in a semi-organised fashion, to build a stronger music scene. This would entail promoting the music scene itself in addition to the gigs. We really need to show a united front. There are various ways to do this. As things stand the GCG comes closest to this ideal, but even that could be taken a step futher.

Here's a brief list of suggestions:

1) Friendly quaterly meetings between all participants.

2) Cross posting. Everywhere puts up everyone's posters. Fact is that people are going to find out about gigs and events anyway so this doesn't do any harm. What it does do is make things appear less insular.

3) Combined flyering, and shared flyers. In other words bigger flyers that advertise multiple events at various venues and organised by various promoters. That way there is a greater chance of something on the flyer appealing to the person receiving it. We also hit economies of scale in terms of printing and distribution costs usually only available to bigger operations. It's also a strong display of unity. It shows that we all care about the scene as a whole.

4) Direct shared funding of the GCG (if they want it). This is a subtle change but it sends the right message.

5) Combined events. This could work really well especially in the summer.

6) Co-ordination and integration of activities. In other words trying not to offer competing events at the same time, but instead working to ensure that if one X is being offered in one location then Y is being offered somewhere else. This maximises everyones revenues since we avoid splitting the market. It's the cartel principle.

7) Special offers - the feeder bar principle. Basically the bars encourage their customers to move on to certain clubs at closing time, and in return those clubs encourage their customers to frequent those bars. The ususal method is that the clubs provide the bars with vouchers to distribute (after an agreed time like 11pm) which offer reduced admission, or X% off your first drink etc... The cost of the vouchers, and even the offer itself can even be shared between the participants. Now lets face it, people are going to drink in bars before they continue on to clubs. But do we want them drinking is chain bars or would we like to support out fellow independents. Likewise people are going to continue on to clubs after the bars shit... and so forth.

8) Shared resources. There are certain things we all pay for that could probably be procured more cost effectively in bulk. In order to protect everyone the payment is accrued up front.

9) Music scene promotional activites and materials. Doing things to raise overall awareness of our music scene, and perhaps putting up some posters that extoll a particular virtue of it.

10) Include periphery businesses in this, for instance recording studios, clothes shops, music shops. Anyone independent that is part of the scene. This important thing would be that EVERYONE connected with the music scene is invited to join, and that nobody is excluded.

That's what I'd like to see happen, if anyone else supports this then please express your support here.

[WoodyRATM]

Yeah it's tricky to attribute exact costs in these instances. I go through the motions of the calculations' date=' just to see where we stand, although we swallow the additional costs rather than passing them on to the promoters.

***

Although it's always fun to cross swords with Jamesy, that's not why I'm contributing to this thread

Yes the posters are a good idea, and they do have an impact. But IMO it's hypocritical to expect the council to permit fly posting, or even create a special area for fly posting, when there are still places that will not agree to cross posting! So come on everyone, let's eliminate that can of worms first...

...which brings us back to the real issue. Aberdeen is in fairly a unique situation in that all of it's venues (with the exception of Chicago Rock LMAO) are in the hands of local independent operators. The potential is there to really do something that would have an enormous impact. Furthermore nobody has to seek (and be denied) permission from a head office in order to participate.

I strongly believe that the ALL the promoters and venues should conciously work together, in a semi-organised fashion, to build a stronger music scene. This would entail promoting the music scene itself in addition to the gigs. We really need to show a united front. There are various ways to do this. As things stand the GCG comes closest to this ideal, but even that could be taken a step futher.

Here's a brief list of suggestions:

1) Friendly quaterly meetings between all participants.

2) Cross posting. Everywhere puts up everyone's posters. Fact is that people are going to find out about gigs and events anyway so this doesn't do any harm. What it does do is make things appear less insular.

3) Combined flyering, and shared flyers. In other words bigger flyers that advertise multiple events at various venues and organised by various promoters. That way there is a greater chance of something on the flyer appealing to the person receiving it. We also hit economies of scale in terms of printing and distribution costs usually only available to bigger operations. It's also a strong display of unity. It shows that we all care about the scene as a whole.

4) Direct shared funding of the GCG (if they want it). This is a subtle change but it sends the right message.

5) Combined events. This could work really well especially in the summer.

6) Co-ordination and integration of activities. In other words trying not to offer competing events at the same time, but instead working to ensure that if one X is being offered in one location then Y is being offered somewhere else. This maximises everyones revenues since we avoid splitting the market. It's the cartel principle.

7) Special offers - the feeder bar principle. Basically the bars encourage their customers to move on to certain clubs at closing time, and in return those clubs encourage their customers to frequent those bars. The ususal method is that the clubs provide the bars with vouchers to distribute (after an agreed time like 11pm) which offer reduced admission, or X% off your first drink etc... The cost of the vouchers, and even the offer itself can even be shared between the participants. Now lets face it, people are going to drink in bars before they continue on to clubs. But do we want them drinking is chain bars or would we like to support out fellow independents. Likewise people are going to continue on to clubs after the bars shit... and so forth.

8) Shared resources. There are certain things we all pay for that could probably be procured more cost effectively in bulk. In order to protect everyone the payment is accrued up front.

9) Music scene promotional activites and materials. Doing things to raise overall awareness of our music scene, and perhaps putting up some posters that extoll a particular virtue of it.

10) Include periphery businesses in this, for instance recording studios, clothes shops, music shops. Anyone independent that is part of the scene. This important thing would be that EVERYONE connected with the music scene is invited to join, and that nobody is excluded.

That's what I'd like to see happen, if anyone else supports this then please express your support here.[/quote']

id actually agree with flash here. It does all make sense to do....

[soundian]

4) Direct shared funding of the GCG (if they want it). This is a subtle change but it sends the right message.

10) Include periphery businesses in this' date=' for instance recording studios, clothes shops, music shops. Anyone independent that is part of the scene. This important thing would be that EVERYONE connected with the music scene is invited to join, and that nobody is excluded.

That's what I'd like to see happen, if anyone else supports this then please express your support here.[/quote']

4) I'd be willing to sit down and discuss this with people, especially if it provides some financial stability to the Guide and helps lay the foundations for future expansion.

10) I'm trying to expand into these areas myself for advertising, so combining 4) and 10) seems a good idea.

I think everything else gets a as well

[stuartmaxwell]

number 6 is never goign to work properly. we have so many gigs now that it is nearly impossible to avoid clashes

alos,, (and im sure others will back me up here)i know that i wouldnt be keen to do a split show with someone else if i didnt feel 110% about the other collectives bands.

but other than that i think thats a pretty good post and a decen tidea of how to take things forward.

[Guest bluesxman]

A wee contribution from someone who knows nothing about promotion, etc but attends a reasonable, not particularly excessive, amount of gigs -

I live outwith Aberdeen and this site has led to a dramatic increase in my gig attendance since discovering it early last year, as not being out in Aberdeen all the time and rarely being in the city centre means you don't see posters, etc. I know i'm only one person but if others from the outlying communities are in the same situation then the numbers build up...... Gig listings on here along with links to My Space or whatever to check out a bands music has been invaluable. Sometimes just the band descriptions along with nice entry prices make it appealing to investigate without even hearing the music first.

The gig listings sites are generally fine if you know the bands mentioned previously but to know every single band that comes to Aberdeen you would have to have godlike powers of musical knowledge.

Personally I find the information posted by the IMP and Arkade folks is the most informative on here but yes I imagine it all takes time to ensure this information is communicated and if there are too many gigs to promote then it is probably unworkable unless some minion is available to type it all in

[cow tipper]

6. Myspace is one of the best things that's ever happened to live music.

Can you expand on this one? How do you use Myspace to increase the numbers through your door? Surely few people read 'bulletins' or 'event invites'? Don't see this as me having a go (I'm not) - working for a promotions company and promoting 3 gigs a month meself, I'm genuinely interested to hear people's experiences...

Big love from smokey London Villiage,

adie.

[malloty]

as i am leaving these shores for the gold lined streets of london town i thought i would give me 10p worth on this subject so here goes...

there are some great points there and in a perfect world everyone would help each other and the music scene would be better though i think every venue owner would admit that their profits were more important than the strength of the scene which is right and the only way to support a business. as a former nightclub/ bar manager who booked a lot of acts (though back in the day it was over price/ arsehole /pilled up djs and cheesy soap stars) i know that these were extras from a predetermined budget but at the end of the day what mattered was numbers through the door and the GP on drinks that I was focusing on. If the acts or bands werent making money or adding to the profits then they were the first to go regardless of any idealogical thinking regarding creating ' a scene'.

as i say there have been some good points but maybe a couple of things i have come across which i thought were worth mentioning.

1. (and this is my biggest gripe) too many bands play far too many gigs in a short period of time within aberdeen. i wont mention names but some bands seem to think they are hard working and when they play 3+ gigs in aberdeen n the space of a month. total waste of time for the bands and also to the venues. all venues should have it as a rule that bands cant arrange any other local gigs within a minumum of a month either side of their gig at a venue. this means that the band wil pull a bigger crowd, meaning the band wil have a better gig and the venue will get a better return.... not rocket science

2. bands should stop moaning about how the promoters dont help and how hard it is to put up posters and how it costs too much and how everyone is out to screw them and how other bands hace it easier because they are friends with so and so ...etc. the fact is if you put in the work you get a bigger following, you get bigger gigs, you start getting noticed and you start making money. due to the amount of venues and the regularity of gigs in aberdeen nowadays it is too easy for bands to get gigs and maybe there is a bit of complacency from some (generalising here so no offence meant). a lot of people didnt like the way i promoted my old band but the fact was that we worked hard to make sure we got noticed and to make sure we sold out our headline gigs. this meant we got to the stage where we got better deals from venues as well as decent gigs and thus made decent money. there is no substitute for hard work when it comes to promoting your band regardless of how good you are and it should be the bands responsibility to make sure their gigs are sold out not the venues . im sure any promoter or vene booker wil agree that they will pay a band more and offer more support to the bands that dont moan or make excuses but that actually make the effort and get the tickets sold

regards this site it is an excellent tool for finding out about things, i never really appreciated until a friend came over to stay with me. he is well into all the heavier stuff and found this site and the people who use it really helpful in finding out where to go, meeting people, discussing music, finding out about local bands and when they were playing. As i have no interest in the hardercore/metal scene this was the only place i could direct him so it certainly does serve a purpose.

i suppose the only negative about it is that regardless of what band s name is mentioned you can guarantee by the end of the thread at least one person will have something shitty to say about them.... but i guess thats aberdeen for you.

anyway thats my 10p worth though will say that in the 8 or so years i have been in aberdeen there are definitely a lot more bands with the potential to achieve something great

[soundian]

all venues should have it as a rule that bands cant arrange any other local gigs within a minumum of a month either side of their gig at a venue. this means that the band wil pull a bigger crowd' date=' meaning the band wil have a better gig and the venue will get a better return.... not rocket science

[/quote']

How can the constant stream of new bands get the gigging experience to leave these shores, like yourself, if they are limited to 6 gigs per year in their hometown?

Here's a quote from "The Fly", which sums up how not bad the Aberdeen music scene is:

"Local music scenes? Awash with colossal egos, miniscule talents, backslapping, sycophancy and pointless, petty jealousies, right? "

It seems there is other non-intelligent life out there.

[trippinoneastereggs]

1. (and this is my biggest gripe) too many bands play far too many gigs in a short period of time within aberdeen. i wont mention names but some bands seem to think they are hard working and when they play 3+ gigs in aberdeen n the space of a month. total waste of time for the bands and also to the venues. all venues should have it as a rule that bands cant arrange any other local gigs within a minumum of a month either side of their gig at a venue. this means that the band wil pull a bigger crowd' date=' meaning the band wil have a better gig and the venue will get a better return.... not rocket science

[/quote']

Um, have to say I dont agree with this in the slightest, its not a waste of time for bands or venues. Also when it comes to local supports for touring bands, which is almost essential for getting attendance for more obscure out of town bands, then it would make the whole game excruciatingly difficult if bands were locked up by the face that "bands cant arrange any other local gigs within a minimum of a month either side of their gig at a venue"

[The Milner]

1. (and this is my biggest gripe) too many bands play far too many gigs in a short period of time within aberdeen. i wont mention names but some bands seem to think they are hard working and when they play 3+ gigs in aberdeen n the space of a month. total waste of time for the bands and also to the venues. all venues should have it as a rule that bands cant arrange any other local gigs within a minumum of a month either side of their gig at a venue. this means that the band wil pull a bigger crowd' date=' meaning the band wil have a better gig and the venue will get a better return.... not rocket science

[/quote']

pishflaps.

We played 4 gigs in a month in the moorings and each night had a bigger attendance than the last, stayover have giged heavily over the last year and have not once had a poor attendance at any of our shows. In fact it has done us more good than i could of ever of hoped for, not only have we improved massivly as a band on stage but we have managed (somehow) to create a great fan base, neither of these things would of happened without all these gigs.

Not everyone will be able to make a certain gig on a specific night so if you only played 12 shows a year from the start then it would be very very difficult to generate a good fan base, yes maybe once your band is more "established" it may seem better to gig slightly less but really only one a month is still too little.

[Chris]

pishflaps.

We played 4 gigs in a month in the moorings and each night had a bigger attendance than the last' date=' stayover have giged heavily over the last year and have not once had a poor attendance at any of our shows. In fact it has done us more good than i could of ever of hoped for[/quote']

exception to the rule I think. Bands simply should not play more than 1 gig a month in the same place. It's just a bad idea that's been documented time and time again but some bands just don't listen.