Promoting in Aberdeen:

[Cloud]

That's a nice idea but unfortunately the venue is still liable to the authorities if anything goes wrong, and though your plan looks good on paper it wouldn't wash in front of an angry licensing board.

It's unfortunate really - you would think that the law would be flexible enough to understand that despite the best plans put into practice, things can go wrong. But I guess, as well, kids being kids, they'll find a way to get past your best laid plans.

Interestingly, I recall that the school disco in Westhill was forced by the police (no doubt as a result of people like me back in the day) a couple of years ago to pre-register everyone that was going, along with requiring everyone to be escorted to/from the hall to avoid trouble. Unsurprisingly, everyone stayed away.

The best way to accomplish this is to hire a church hall or a scout hut. Let people bring their own booze. If it all goes tits up then you can abscond. Nobody is going to indite a man of the cloth.

It really is the most sensible option - but as I was saying, I suspect most 'promoters' that put on underage gigs wouldn't want to take the risk of actually taking responsibility for everything. Can you imagine having to deal with 200 kids who are on the rampage because they'd paid a fiver to see some bands, only to be told that 'sorry, the PA's broken and you can't have a refund as we need to pay the headliners'....could be a nightmare

[Guest Exposure @ Lemon Tree]

Change of subject, and back to the earlier discussion...

MySpace.com - Aberdeen Gig Listings - UK - www.myspace.com/aberdeengiglistings is now fully functional. It's not as pretty as it will be when complete, but it will serve the purpose for the immediate future.

Get yourself added as a friend etc. and stick it in your top friends so visitors to your site will find it easily. I will be adding friends etc to try and increase the exposure of the site. The aim is to have anyone looking to find out what's on in Aberdeen directed there, and they'll easily find out what's on gigwise any night of any week in Aberdeen!

Any venues/promoters/bands wishing their gigs to be listed on here and promoted (solely through myspace comments at the moment, possibility of setting up a mailing list in the future) should click here to send an email.

Email should include all basic info such as Venue / Date / Doors / Door Tax / Line Up / Headline act.

Also send any jpeg posters and I'll get them on the myspace site in the week approaching the gig.

Cheers,

Calum

[Flash@TMB]

It really is the most sensible option - but as I was saying, I suspect most 'promoters' that put on underage gigs wouldn't want to take the risk of actually taking responsibility for everything. Can you imagine having to deal with 200 kids who are on the rampage because they'd paid a fiver to see some bands, only to be told that 'sorry, the PA's broken and you can't have a refund as we need to pay the headliners'....could be a nightmare

Back in the day promoters would occasionally pay a bike team to act as *AHEM* security. Just like the Stones did at Altamont (despite how well that turned out).

I guess they just preferred watching a dozen bikers beat up on 200 rampaging kids, probably cos you place bets on the number of casualties and stuff. Those were the days.

[saf-one]

What venues charge a fee that bears any relation to the cost incurred by the venue to stage the gig? For instance, Drummonds used to be free to hire, and the Tunnels would charge 50 quid on a weeknight. That 50 quid wouldn't even pay for the staffing, let alone the ongoing costs with the PA and so on. Hence the bar becomes responsible for making the profit for the venue - and which is ultimately why underage gigs cannot be a great proposition at the weekends for venues looking to pack the place out until 12/1/3am with drinkers.

Something else comes to mind about weekends - okay, a venue may allow underagers in until 11. But the likelihood is that the vast majority of adults out for a drink and a good time that might consider some music won't be interested if they look in and see the place full of kids - they'll just go elsewhere. Then consider the fact that the police will 'have a word' if vast amounts of kids are hanging around outside, and they rapidly become a pest to a venue.

Flash has made plenty of posts in the past outlining exactly why they stopped doing 14+ gigs at The Moorings - and I dare say most venues will feel the same way at the weekends. The fact that these venues are happy to take on 14+ gigs midweek should be seen as a good thing, as it would be all too easy for them to move to a 18+ policy.

Certainly.

Any promoter with half a brain should realise that people, generally, will look to the weekend for their entertainment. Students are an exception - but seeing as adult gig goers comprise a wide section of society, then there's little point focusing on them above everyone else. Therefore, if you need underagers at the weekend to make your gigs viable, you're simply booking the wrong bands for the city - you should be booking the bands that bring in drinkers, which keeps the venues happy to keep putting on gigs. People seem to forget that these venues are businesses too - and if anything, it's more important that they make a profit (or at least, make an acceptable loss in the eyes of the owners) than the individual promoters.

Likewise, relying on underagers to fill a gig is a classic sign of someone not knowing what they're doing as they need the (easily satisfied) underage market in order to make their gigs successful. It's no great secret that you can make any gig successful just by sticking on a couple of support bands that draw vast amounts of kids - but it's hardly a success for a venue if their place is at capacity with kids, leaving no room for people who will actually stay and drink all night.

I think, at least personally, promoting to underagers is simply a lazy option - it's much, much harder to promote to adults, and as such, perhaps such 'promoters' that put on gigs aimed at the youth market should consider that rightfully or wrongly, the best place for such gigs are during the week.

Of course - to someone such as Inkster. Have you considered approaching the venues with a plan that you'll take responsibility for the actions of the kids at the weekend? An earlier start/finish, combined with an assurance that you'll take full responsibility in making sure that the venue is cleaned out of kids by a certain time might be taken seriously. If you had people deployed to catch such nonsense as drinking anywhere near the venue/in the venue, compulsory bag searches/taking any sort of bottles off them and proving that you will actually police the gig thoroughly, they may be more willing to take you on.

Moshulu, Music Hall, The Lemon Tree, Forum are ones which you need to cover most of the expenses. Your right Drummonds & Tunnels you dont and its good that they dont as it results in cheap, good, local gigs a pleanty.

I agree with you about it being of little interest to venues to put on 14+ at a weekend. As i mentioned before. I also agree with the adults not wanting heaps of youngsters about on a weekend.

To a promoter who is only relying on door money:

A 15year olds 5 is as good as a 30 year old 5.

"promoting to underagers is simply a lazy option" -

Not true and you must bear in mind that most 14+ gigs (for example the Dan Vs Pip and LOTP gigs I am prommoting) are requested/demanded by the bands themsleves...not the promoter.

-

[Flash@TMB]

Change of subject, and back to the earlier discussion...

MySpace.com - Aberdeen Gig Listings - UK - www.myspace.com/aberdeengiglistings is now fully functional. It's not as pretty as it will be when complete, but it will serve the purpose for the immediate future.

Get yourself added as a friend etc. and stick it in your top friends so visitors to your site will find it easily. I will be adding friends etc to try and increase the exposure of the site. The aim is to have anyone looking to find out what's on in Aberdeen directed there, and they'll easily find out what's on gigwise any night of any week in Aberdeen!

Any venues/promoters/bands wishing their gigs to be listed on here and promoted (solely through myspace comments at the moment, possibility of setting up a mailing list in the future) should click here to send an email.

Email should include all basic info such as Venue / Date / Doors / Door Tax / Line Up / Headline act.

Also send any jpeg posters and I'll get them on the myspace site in the week approaching the gig.

Cheers,

Calum

I'll point Fudge in the general direction of this (and keep reminding him until in sinks in).

[Inkster]

"promoting to underagers is simply a lazy option" -

Not true and you must bear in mind that most 14+ gigs (for example the Dan Vs Pip and LOTP gigs I am prommoting) are requested/demanded by the bands themsleves...not the promoter.

-

This is very true and something that's often requested by bands. It all comes down to the demographic of a bands audience. Indie bands are so much easier to promote to an older audience than hardcore bands. I'm more a fan of alternative music and so the demographic I'm aiming most of my gigs at are going to be younger people with the occasional older audience member (say 1 in 10).

In the case of LOTP, aren't they all about 17?

This point I'm trying to make is not about me or who I promote or who I promote it to but more a personal opinion of mine that I find it more and more unacceptable that kids are being driven out of going to gigs at weekends (unless it's a bigger band playing Moshulu/Lemon Tree or Music Hall) when they have the most free time on their hands. I think it's up to more people who have the knowledge to help create gigs and events that cater for a younger audience to take them off the streets and do something useful with their time rather than hang about corners harassing people.

[saf-one]

In the case of LOTP, aren't they all about 17?

.

20 and 21 ish if I remember correct.

[Guest Exposure @ Lemon Tree]

This is very true and something that's often requested by bands. It all comes down to the demographic of a bands audience. Indie bands are so much easier to promote to an older audience than hardcore bands. I'm more a fan of alternative music and so the demographic I'm aiming most of my gigs at are going to be younger people with the occasional older audience member (say 1 in 10).

In the case of LOTP, aren't they all about 17?

This point I'm trying to make is not about me or who I promote or who I promote it to but more a personal opinion of mine that I find it more and more unacceptable that kids are being driven out of going to gigs at weekends (unless it's a bigger band playing Moshulu/Lemon Tree or Music Hall) when they have the most free time on their hands. I think it's up to more people who have the knowledge to help create gigs and events that cater for a younger audience to take them off the streets and do something useful with their time rather than hang about corners harassing people.

I agree with you to the extent of getting kids off the street etc and someone coming up with alternatives and allowing kids to experience live music etc. But as has been pointed out, the people running venues are taking massive risks from all sorts of angles.

It takes someone (maybe you since you feel so strongly about it) to do something a little different that will allow the youth access to live music in an environment where there won't be the risk of kids dying from alcohol poisoning and all the crap that goes hand in hand with it.

[Inkster]

I agree with you to the extent of getting kids off the street etc and someone coming up with alternatives and allowing kids to experience live music etc. But as has been pointed out, the people running venues are taking massive risks from all sorts of angles.

It takes someone (maybe you since you feel so strongly about it) to do something a little different that will allow the youth access to live music in an environment where there won't be the risk of kids dying from alcohol poisoning and all the crap that goes hand in hand with it.

I'm currently trying to draw up some sort of plan that I can take to certain people but I thought a few more people would've been supportive of such an idea but it appears not

[Guest Exposure @ Lemon Tree]

I'm currently trying to draw up some sort of plan that I can take to certain people but I thought a few more people would've been supportive of such an idea but it appears not

To be fair, you haven't really detailed any of your plan on here for folk to support it.

All you've done is criticised venues for not putting on 14+ gigs at the weekend.

I'm not criticising you or anyone else - but if you want support for something you're trying to draw up, you should probably give everyone some more detail.

[Cloud]

I'm currently trying to draw up some sort of plan that I can take to certain people but I thought a few more people would've been supportive of such an idea but it appears not

The problem is quite complex though - most private companies/individuals won't be interested because of the potential problems, particularly given past high-profile incidents with alcohol. You also have to consider the amount of knife crime among young people - rightfully or wrongly, no-one wants to risk having a stabbing in their venue.

I would suggest that it would make the most sense to lobby APA to do more for young people - they have the venues, the public funding and the remit to do things for young people, so they should be the first point of contact. However, they may very well argue that they do more than enough for young people and so that they don't need to do more.

I don't think in these economic times, you'll get far by appealling to private individuals - they have to make money, and they aren't going to risk their livelihoods on some idiot drunken teenager choking on his own vomit in the toilet.

Perhaps contacting local youth workers could be sensible? They would be able to arrange hire of school halls/community centres/etc, and you could easily attract a decent crowd (200 out of a school of 1000 wouldn't be hard) to a gig held in such a place. Sure, you'd have the hassles of putting the gig together, but you could more than likely charge a higher price given the 'community' nature of it.

There's certainly no reason that you have to put on gigs in city centre venues - although it may be difficult to convince bands to play in such locations rather than in mainstream ones. Local bands would probably be no bother (particularly as they could play a gig in say Cults one week and then the city centre the next without worrying about affecting their turnout in the city) - but I'm really not sure how a band around the 300-400 quid guarantee mark would treat an offer of playing such a gig.

But just don't expect the venues to show any social responsibility - unless they're receiving public cash, of course

[Inkster]

The problem is quite complex though - most private companies/individuals won't be interested because of the potential problems, particularly given past high-profile incidents with alcohol. You also have to consider the amount of knife crime among young people - rightfully or wrongly, no-one wants to risk having a stabbing in their venue.

I would suggest that it would make the most sense to lobby APA to do more for young people - they have the venues, the public funding and the remit to do things for young people, so they should be the first point of contact. However, they may very well argue that they do more than enough for young people and so that they don't need to do more.

I don't think in these economic times, you'll get far by appealling to private individuals - they have to make money, and they aren't going to risk their livelihoods on some idiot drunken teenager choking on his own vomit in the toilet.

Perhaps contacting local youth workers could be sensible? They would be able to arrange hire of school halls/community centres/etc, and you could easily attract a decent crowd (200 out of a school of 1000 wouldn't be hard) to a gig held in such a place. Sure, you'd have the hassles of putting the gig together, but you could more than likely charge a higher price given the 'community' nature of it.

There's certainly no reason that you have to put on gigs in city centre venues - although it may be difficult to convince bands to play in such locations rather than in mainstream ones. Local bands would probably be no bother (particularly as they could play a gig in say Cults one week and then the city centre the next without worrying about affecting their turnout in the city) - but I'm really not sure how a band around the 300-400 quid guarantee mark would treat an offer of playing such a gig.

But just don't expect the venues to show any social responsibility - unless they're receiving public cash, of course

Cheers for the input man. Much appreciated. I'll look into what you've suggested

[The Ghost Of Fudge]

I'll point Fudge in the general direction of this (and keep reminding him until in sinks in).

get out

[Cloud]

Cheers for the input man. Much appreciated. I'll look into what you've suggested

I'm actually wondering if it might be worth your time getting in touch with the heads of music departments in schools - the more 'englightened' departments always organise band nights, and they may be very enthusiastic if you can bring a 'name' band to a gig with a good local support or two, along with a place for bands from the school in question. There's the issue of security/etc - but if it's a school event, it's pretty likely that they'll be on their best behaviour.

I'd give you Westhill as a good heads up to investigate - the Ashdale Hall is pretty cheap to rent, and the school traditionally has been quite supportive of alternative music. However, the music department is shit

A small suggestion - what about trying to put on a mini tour of school/community halls throughout the North East? You could get three bands as part of the 'tour', with a fourth band coming from the local area. I'm sure some established local bands that aren't up their own arse would kill for the opportunity to play some busy gigs and earn a decent amount of cash to do so - particularly as the kids at these gigs might very well end up turning up at their 'real' gigs in the city.

It might also be worth talking to those that have received public money in the past for gigs too - the council does have money available to give to these things, and I'm sure any proposal to 'get kids off the streets' will go down well with the decision makers.

Be bold, be brave

[Inkster]

I'm actually wondering if it might be worth your time getting in touch with the heads of music departments in schools - the more 'englightened' departments always organise band nights, and they may be very enthusiastic if you can bring a 'name' band to a gig with a good local support or two, along with a place for bands from the school in question. There's the issue of security/etc - but if it's a school event, it's pretty likely that they'll be on their best behaviour.

I'd give you Westhill as a good heads up to investigate - the Ashdale Hall is pretty cheap to rent, and the school traditionally has been quite supportive of alternative music. However, the music department is shit

A small suggestion - what about trying to put on a mini tour of school/community halls throughout the North East? You could get three bands as part of the 'tour', with a fourth band coming from the local area. I'm sure some established local bands that aren't up their own arse would kill for the opportunity to play some busy gigs and earn a decent amount of cash to do so - particularly as the kids at these gigs might very well end up turning up at their 'real' gigs in the city.

It might also be worth talking to those that have received public money in the past for gigs too - the council does have money available to give to these things, and I'm sure any proposal to 'get kids off the streets' will go down well with the decision makers.

Be bold, be brave

Thanks man. Only one problem...Living in Glasgow these days lol

[Cloud]

Thanks man. Only one problem...Living in Glasgow these days lol

Do the same thing there

Might even be easier there, considering the popularity of Glasgwegian music..

[soundian]

I was told that once a police officer (not a PC either, one of the higher-uppies) grabbed a member of bar staff by the neck and pinned them against a wall for daring to suggest that it was the police's problem if the kids were getting pissed on the streets since the venue has no control of them there.

If that's the attitude of the police then it's easy to see why there are relatively few 14+ gigs on.

[Andy Mulhern]

Any promoter with half a brain......

sounds about right

[vega]

I'd give you Westhill as a good heads up to investigate - the Ashdale Hall is pretty cheap to rent, and the school traditionally has been quite supportive of alternative music. However, the music department is shit

Westhill, Aberdeen's "best kept secret".

I think you could be right though. I don't know how much the Ashdale costs or owt, but it would be supported by the school and you'd probably get quite a few kids just "coz there's a gig on". Only problem would be the size of the place - quite hard to not make it appear empty, etc.

With regards the North East thing, myself, Mr. Calum and Mr. Huw went a wee jaunt to Arbroath last year. The local community centre had organised the gig and seemed relatively well behaved and there was a good turnout. It did at times have a "school disco" feel and there was strict curfew and something over "noise outwith the venue" - kids being lairy etc, but on the whole it was a pretty good setup. I'm not sure whether these gigs are regular or what, but from what it looked like, they aimed for Friday or Saturday nights and folk appeared whether they were genuinely interested in the acts or not.

I'm not saying this is the way forward or anything, just thought it was relevant and was evidence of something similar working.

[-matthEw-]

I think the idea of gigs around the NE is a sound one. We once played a gig out in Alford, part of an all Aberdeen line-up if I remember correctly (Alan Cynic and No Pasaran) and there was a mega crowd there purely because they don't often get the chance to see any gigs on their own turf, although it was an exceptionally well promoted event as well. Kids as young as 8 to 'old' Adults (and not just Alan!) all had a really good night.

[Alan Cynic]

That was a good night!

What was the comment that wee boy shouted at StewCat??

[Guest idol_wild]

That was a good night!

What was the comment that wee boy shouted at StewCat??

What's the difference between a brick and a ginger?

A brick eventually gets laid.

[Sam 45]

I think the idea of gigs around the NE is a sound one. We once played a gig out in Alford, part of an all Aberdeen line-up if I remember correctly (Alan Cynic and No Pasaran) and there was a mega crowd there purely because they don't often get the chance to see any gigs on their own turf, although it was an exceptionally well promoted event as well. Kids as young as 8 to 'old' Adults (and not just Alan!) all had a really good night.

This sounds pretty interesting. I'm gonna put on a show at the Peterculter village hall. Who wants a gig?

[Inkster]

Westhill, Aberdeen's "best kept secret".

I think you could be right though. I don't know how much the Ashdale costs or owt, but it would be supported by the school and you'd probably get quite a few kids just "coz there's a gig on". Only problem would be the size of the place - quite hard to not make it appear empty, etc.

With regards the North East thing, myself, Mr. Calum and Mr. Huw went a wee jaunt to Arbroath last year. The local community centre had organised the gig and seemed relatively well behaved and there was a good turnout. It did at times have a "school disco" feel and there was strict curfew and something over "noise outwith the venue" - kids being lairy etc, but on the whole it was a pretty good setup. I'm not sure whether these gigs are regular or what, but from what it looked like, they aimed for Friday or Saturday nights and folk appeared whether they were genuinely interested in the acts or not.

I'm not saying this is the way forward or anything, just thought it was relevant and was evidence of something similar working.

Beat Generator Promotions put on gigs most friday and/or saturday nights with many a good touring band playing there and one or two local bands supporting.

A similar thing is what I was thinking about doing but obviously down here in the central belt cos it would be hard to do it up the road.

14+ gigs with strict curfews, police aware of when and where the gig is and can gauge if it's allowing for more or less trouble to control and whether it's a good idea to keep up.

Google The Ark in Ayr and have a squint at their site

[TR!ΔNGL€ T€€TH]

What's the difference between a brick and a ginger?

A brick eventually gets laid.

Oh dear...