Promoting in Aberdeen:

[Flash@TMB]

It's difficult to judge how much an impact flyposting would have' date=' since all posters at the moment are mostly confined to the venues that put on the shows, i.e. the market which already exists.[/quote']

And there are still venues that prohibit posters from other venues, helping to keep the market further fragmented. Which is just plain silly.

[Stripey]

Is the lack of attention paid to the grass roots music scene by the council a sign

Why on earth should the council care about or back the local music scene? Why should the press/media?

There is something slightly nauseating about this notion that "if only the council did this..." or "if only the radio took an interest..." as a cause for lack of attendance at gigs.

I think flash is right about oversaturation. I think the fact that a large proportion of local bands are nothing particularly special or anything to get excited about obviously plays a part aswell.

[Graeme]

Why on earth should the council care about or back the local music scene?

Because part of their written agenda is to create a "Cultural Buzz"

[stuartmaxwell]

Most people outside of this website have never heard' date=' are oblivious to, and are not at interested in the majority of touring bands that play here. T.[/quote']

nonsense

[soundian]

From reading these threads' date=' and noting the impact on a first hand basis, we can hazzard a fairly accurate guess that 2 people posting does NOT equate to 300-400 lost punters LOL.

This website exists in the microcosm of the Aberdeen music scene. Different rules apply out in the macrocosm of Aberdeen itself. Most people outside of this website have never heard, are oblivious to, and are not at interested in the majority of touring bands that play here. To change that you need to cultural shift as opposed to a few promotional tweaks.

EDIT: OK obviously I didn't rest my case. DOH! LOL.[/quote']

But maybe 2 people posting does relate to 20 lost punters, which is not an insignificant amount in a 300 capacity venue. There are a lot of people who read these forums but rarely, if ever,post here.

As I've already said, it's the people who currently don't go to see live music often that people need to target for a long term gain in numbers, so advertising somewhere that people who don't go to gigs often will see it i.e. not in the venues, is needed.

Maybe getting more information out there to the right people* will facilitate a cultural shift.

I don't suppose we'll know until somebody tries.

*The people who might go to gigs

[Flash@TMB]

But maybe 2 people posting does relate to 20 lost punters' date=' which is not an insignificant amount in a 300 capacity venue. There are a lot of people who read these forums but rarely, if ever,post here.[/quote']

Sure there will be a number of people missing from each and every gig. And yes better promotion might enusre that some of them get there. But that's not the root of the problem.

As I've already said' date=' it's the people who currently don't go to see live music often that people need to target for a long term gain in numbers, so advertising somewhere that people who don't go to gigs often will see it i.e. not in the venues, is needed.

Maybe getting more information out there to the right people* will facilitate a cultural shift.[/quote']

In the same way that advertising sashimi in a McDonalds might encourage it's customers to start eating raw fish???

First rule of advertising: "Sell the sizzle not the sausage". Telling a bunch of people who aren't interested that a band they've never heard of is playing somewhere they don't go, not going to work.

The way to achieve this is to sell the 'scene' not the music.

[Guest Hon Jonda]

Lie through your teeth and use violence and intimidation if necessary

Dont rely on the internet

[Flash@TMB]

nonsense

Perhaps you should try asking them. Only this time try asking people that don't already go and see these bands. And when you ask them, be aware that some of them will lie just to be polite or appear hip. To weed these out you need to phrase the question thus:

"Name 1 tune by each of the following bands". Uh-oh!

Like me, you have fallen into the music scene microcosm, and your movements are mainly within it's orbit. It's easy to forget that other people may not share the same interest.

If you take the population of this town, then begin to filter it according to who would attend a particular gig, assuming 100% effective marketing, then the numbers will be quite shocking. They get even worse when you factor in availability.

[stuartmaxwell]

The way to achieve this is to sell the 'scene' not the music.

and that there is the tragedy

[Flash@TMB]

and that there is the tragedy

Any movement is going to start with true believers, then acquire some people that are kind of into it, then some people who 'dig' the fashion, then a bunch of guys that are only there cos of the hot chicks, and finally (perhaps) a flock of sheep that are just copying everyone else.

We're entering the sheep phase. Live with it. LOL!

[stuartmaxwell]

Perhaps you should try asking them. Only this time try asking people that don't already go and see these bands. And when you ask them' date=' be aware that some of them will lie just to be polite or appear hip. To weed these out you need to phrase the question thus:

"Name 1 tune by each of the following bands". Uh-oh!

Like me, you have fallen into the music scene microcosm, and your movements are mainly within it's orbit. It's easy to forget that other people may not share the same interest.

If you take the population of this town, then begin to filter it according to who would attend a particular gig, assuming 100% effective marketing, then the numbers will be quite shocking. They get even worse when you factor in availability.[/quote']

about 10 % of regular gig goers in aberdeen post on this site. christ we have 5 gigs happening most nights in aberdeen, 2 of them at least featuring touring bands. maybe 85 different peopel regularly post on this site.

many of these midweek gigs will have a 60% friend attendence. thats still 40% of gig 1,2,3,4,5 that are still regularly going to gigs.

how else do rfr etc keep hitting sell out shows week in week out, and only 3 people post about them on here. where are the other 297+ who dont post yet keep going to those of shows? this is why i said your post was nonsense

these are the shows that are putting aberdeen on the map in the "industry", booking markets and in the mainstream press, these are the shows outwith the micro and are in macro territory. i fully agree with you and i believe this site (amongst other things) has created a microcosm within a very small cluster of people (like in most music communities)

lookign at imp/arkade shows= 4/5 different people will post about them on our threads here, but we still have regulars of about 50/60 each. and these are hardly all local line ups and they generally are about watching music from other places. these may only be around 3/4 gigs a month each, but thats still 8 gigs a month with 50/60 ish at a time who dont post on here about it.

[stuartmaxwell]

Any movement is going to start with true believers' date=' then acquire some people that are kind of into it, then some people who 'dig' the fashion, then a bunch of guys that are only there cos of the hot chicks, and finally (perhaps) a flock of sheep that are just copying everyone else.

We're entering the sheep phase. Live with it. LOL![/quote']

it what happens and continually evolves, dissapears and returns

when i lived in glasgow it was the art fag phase

cunts

[vide infra]

What I'd like to know is why so many people who are into the promotional side of music have such a lack of experience in either management or marketing. Companies who want to promote a product don't hire randoms off the street who have a 'keen interest' in the subject matter, they hire trained PR people who know what their saying. Now I'm not throwing daggers into the wind with a blindfold on, I'm probably wrong. Sometimes experience and contacts are better than actual training, but it does suprise me why venues are willing to allow people who are only really bothered in treating it like a past-time when its as important a part of the business side of things as say an accountant.

Also i always thought a bunch of posters ,some sticky substance (not male reproductive fluid), a brush and a car were all you needed to do postering properly. It's not as if the chances of getting caught are that high and there's only so many posters the council can be bothered washing off before realising they'd be better providing a suitable location for this activity.

[french_disko]

when i lived in glasgow it was the art fag phase

I don't think there's such a specific "scene" here, if you see what I mean.

The good thing about the gigs here is the diverstity - ie, the music that IMP or Arkade promotes is different from RFR, etc.

If everyone liked the same stuff then gigs would sell out - but we have a wide range of genres being promoted in town that each have their own audience.

The diversity is great for music fans that are not "metal", "goth", "ned", "art fag" or whatever. However, people of these specific lifestyles / fashions may not be prepared to listen to other genres.

Does that make sense?

[soundian]

Sure there will be a number of people missing from each and every gig. And yes better promotion might enusre that some of them get there. But that's not the root of the problem.

In the same way that advertising sashimi in a McDonalds might encourage it's customers to start eating raw fish???

First rule of advertising: "Sell the sizzle not the sausage". Telling a bunch of people who aren't interested that a band they've never heard of is playing somewhere they don't go' date=' not going to work.

The way to achieve this is to sell the 'scene' not the music.[/quote']

Letting people know there is a scene might be a start, but how will they know if they never go to the venues to see the posters from which they can surmise that there is a scene. If they don't know it's there , they're hardly going to look for it.

I don't think it'll have a dramatic effect, just that it's one of many small things that could be done to nudge things along in the right direction and keep the momentum going. If it can be done at no cost to the taxpayer, I don't see why it shouldn't be.

[french_disko]

Also i always thought a bunch of posters ' date='some sticky substance (not male reproductive fluid), a brush and a car were all you needed to do postering properly. It's not as if the chances of getting caught are that high and there's only so many posters the council can be bothered washing off before realising they'd be better providing a suitable location for this activity.[/quote']

The problem with this is that it gets on the wrong side of the people you are asking about doing it legitimately - ie, the Council. It puts them in the position of having to choose - random postering will be regarded by most of the public as "vandalism" or "littering".

[Cloud]

Also i always thought a bunch of posters ,some sticky substance (not male reproductive fluid), a brush and a car were all you needed to do postering properly. It's not as if the chances of getting caught are that high and there's only so many posters the council can be bothered washing off before realising they'd be better providing a suitable location for this activity.

As I understand it, the licencing board will threaten to revoke a venue's licence that does such a thing. It might be easy and effective to do, but is it worth losing your licence for? As for the individual promoters - they're likely not so stupid as to flypost when they know of the consequences.

[Flash@TMB]

about 10 % of regular gig goers in aberdeen post on this site. christ we have 5 gigs happening most nights in aberdeen' date=' 2 of them at least featuring touring bands. maybe 85 different peopel regularly post on this site.

many of these midweek gigs will have a 60% friend attendence. thats still 40% of gig 1,2,3,4,5 that are still regularly going to gigs.[/quote']

There's no way of knowing any of that without a proper analyses. In my personal experience this site plays a bigger role than you think. I started posting here just prior to shutting for refurb at the end of 2003. After reopening we were surprised to be inundated with people we'd never seen before a generation younger than our previous customers. Not all of them post on here, most of them don't, but we sure as hell didn't advertise anywhere else. When it comes to getting the word out, few things do a better job than aberdeen-music.com.

how else do rfr etc keep hitting sell out shows week in week out' date=' and only 3 people post about them on here. where are the other 297+ who dont post yet keep going to those of shows? this is why i said your post was nonsense[/quote']

If RFR is suceeding in getting 300 people to every tunnels gig, and 600 people to every Moshulu gig, then problem solved, we can park this thread here cos it's pointless.

these are the shows that are putting aberdeen on the map in the "industry"' date=' booking markets and in the mainstream press, these are the shows outwith the micro and are in macro territory. [/quote']

If there every gig is a sell out then little wonder.

lookign at imp/arkade shows= 4/5 different people will post about them on our threads here' date=' but we still have regulars of about 50/60 each. and these are hardly all local line ups and they generally are about watching music from other places. these may only be around 3/4 gigs a month each, but thats still 8 gigs a month with 50/60 ish at a time who dont post on here about it.[/quote']

It's possible (although not advisable) to put this to the test. Stop listing and promoting your gigs here on aberdeen-music.com for a few weeks, then compare attendance figures. BTW I'm not seriously suggesting you try this.

[Flash@TMB]

As I understand it' date=' the licencing board will threaten to revoke a venue's licence that does such a thing. It might be easy and effective to do, but is it worth losing your licence for? As for the individual promoters - they're likely not so stupid as to flypost when they know of the consequences.[/quote']

That is correct Cloud, that is exactly what happens. Whichever venue has it's name on the poster carries the can. And recently a venue in Glasgow lost it's regular extension (being able to open after 11pm on weekdays and after midnight at weekends) for fly posting.

[Flash@TMB]

Letting people know there is a scene might be a start' date=' but how will they know if they never go to the venues to see the posters from which they can surmise that there is a scene. If they don't know it's there , they're hardly going to look for it.

I don't think it'll have a dramatic effect, just that it's one of many small things that could be done to nudge things along in the right direction and keep the momentum going. If it can be done at no cost to the taxpayer, I don't see why it shouldn't be.[/quote']

Ian, as usual we are at cross purposes. I am in favour of the plan, but I don't think it's going to have that much of an impact. Athough from what Maxi is posting, things can't actually be improved on, as every show is selling out night after night???

[Flash@TMB]

What I'd like to know is why so many people who are into the promotional side of music have such a lack of experience in either management or marketing. Companies who want to promote a product don't hire randoms off the street who have a 'keen interest' in the subject matter' date=' they hire trained PR people who know what their saying. Now I'm not throwing daggers into the wind with a blindfold on, I'm probably wrong. Sometimes experience and contacts are better than actual training, but it does suprise me why venues are willing to allow people who are only really bothered in treating it like a past-time when its as important a part of the business side of things as say an accountant.[/quote']

The problem is cost. There's little or no money to be made from live music (at this level). It's a labour of love.

Mainly there are people that have devoted their lives to the cause, but aren't interested in or don't understand the underlying mechanics of business, marketing, economics etc. Only they think they do... which is worse. There is the odd person that does understand these things, but perhaps isn't so clued up on music, so everyone ignores them It's like herding cats. So those involved muddle away, then blame the council when everything goes tits up.

[Dizzy Storm]

now now flash. no need to get pedantic. jamesy will hit a sell out show once a week if not more, out of 5/6 nights thats pretty good going i think

and that will only get better as the acts he is getting now are bigger and better marketed so on etc

[Dizzy Storm]

that was me that posted that

maxi

[Cloud]

That is correct Cloud' date=' that is exactly what happens. Whichever venue has it's name on the poster carries the can. And recently a venue in Glasgow lost it's regular extension (being able to open after 11pm on weekdays and after midnight at weekends) for fly posting.[/quote']

Ouch. At least they'll have learnt their lesson as a result.

I think, honestly speaking, part of the problem here is that very little thought is put into how the final product (the gig) is presented to people. It's often heard that people have much more choice these days, and as a result, are demanding much more - so to tell them that the gig is going to be amazing simply isn't going to cut it when there's so much else competing for their money.

[Jamesy]

Although I'm not really looking to get overly involved in this, I'll add a few things.

1. Flash - You're not a promoter, you're a dude that owns a pub that puts on gigs. If it's a labour of love, then you either have great patience, or a terrible taste in music. If there's no money to be made in live music, then Al and Rob have really fucked up giving me this opportunity. We've had over 2000 people through the door into shows in the last week, and I recognised hardly any of them, whereas I reckon I know a high % of the Ab-Music regulars, gone are the days where you could predict who'd be at what show, it's bigscale.

2. Postering - it works, provided some dickhead doesn;t take down your posters 5 minutes after they've been put up. Also, dont be stupid enough to hand your posters over the counter to someone in a shop that says they'll put them up for you. It'll never happen, they'll end up in the bin, do it yourself.

3. PR Companies - Recently, I've had to look to using PR companies due to the volume of shows going on. I've gave 50-100 posters per show, and 5000 of my booklets to get distributed. I can honestly say that the only ones that I've actually seen are ones that I sorted out myself. It's a lot better to get someone you trust to do it, and to sort out a list of sites yourself, or to sit down with a PR company and let them know that you'll be chasing up their work, and what you want done exactly to a tee.

4. The Council - Fucking useless. From parking dispensation to promotions. Meh. I have to say that some of the people their are good banter on the phone, and the police are always helpful.

5. Local press - Aberdeen Journals will list shows, do previews of what they want, and if you provide pictures of bands, they'll print them in the listings, they're pretty good with it, but they'll only run stuff like ticket giveaways with AECC shows, which is a bit disappointing. Cogno and The Gaudie will do listings, as will Kerrang and NME, Daily Record and pretty much any other paper. Northsound - Alan Lorraine is God, with great taste in music, and a real fire for finding/helping new great bands, Del was cool, but Alan is the dogs.

6. Myspace is one of the best things that's ever happened to live music.

It can be a fucking nightmare to promote a shitload of shows at once in Aberdeen. You have to throw things in people faces, hence why I started a myspace called Gigs IN Aberdeen. It grabs attention, where as doing something as RFR Promotions doesn't. You also have to make it as easy as possible to buy tickets for shows, cause generally people are lazy when it comes to this.

Meh, just my 2 cents