Wind-up?

[Rob_86]

Maybe agreeing to disagree, but if there's a debate in the first place, then there's 2 opposing views so agreement would mean someone changing their views. Which I don't think anybody has done.

Perhaps yeah, but also when you make things clearer often people realise they aren't really disagreeing all that greatly if at all. Like you might assume someone is saying thigns he isn't, and then it takes posts like Tam up there to point out what is really being said etc.

In all reality I don't think anyone here has differing base moralities or anything (ie I dont think anyone is actually in support of Nazi bands) we simply disagree on finer points, and those have become a lot clearer this morning, and seem not so great as far as I can see.

[girl anachronism]

Half your morning - is that all? Try typing half the posts when you're meant to be working lol good job it's a slow day

Well it certainly was laborious to read! Interesting debate though.

Back on topic (although I'm evidently very late to the party), the music wasn't really my thing but would have liked to have caught the show on the 4th. Any further projects in the pipeline?

[unbroken]

Not specifically, but if you're debating the issue then the goal is agreement yes.

so if i was to be debating the issue, would you not stop "debating" until I agree with you?

What if I don't agree with you, are you going to keep telling me that I should?

[Teabags]

Probably not...just meant that if the guy wears swastika clothes and hangs around other people who do the same, he's probably not entirely joking when he endlessly writes comedy songs about how hitler was great and gas chambers, and that the folk who really like the music might also not see it as a joke, thus inadvertently or not more 'malable minds' as Rob puts it are probably thinking that these sort of beliefs are acceptable.

Exactly. Hence why i can see the irony adn not mind a band caleld Wifebeater, but was actually rather offended by Seth Putnam.

He ended up getting kicked down a set of stairs at the gig. And one of the other band members got kicked in the face by RJ from Magrudergrind.

[The Milner]

Maybe agreeing to disagree, but if there's a debate in the first place, then there's 2 opposing views so agreement would mean someone changing their views. Which I don't think anybody has done.

he was debating the point more on how music can influence people more than the actual effect wifebeater had i would say i may have had my views altered slightly, i still think its silly that music has more effect than flims/games but if i think about it a lot i can see the point, i dont think for one minute that wifebeater set out to encourage people towards spousal abuse but i can see why it could be seen as that.

[Guest treader.]

He ended up getting kicked down a set of stairs at the gig.

Hahahaha. Why?

And one of the other band members got kicked in the face by RJ from Magrudergrind.

Hahahaha. Why?

[Guest Exposure @ Lemon Tree]

I'd like to point out that Wifebeater are not (or more specifically were not) a nazi band.

And the reason I had a go at Rob in earlier posts was his unwillingness to accept other people's opinions that disagreed with his own. He's just made it abundantly clear that he won't leave this debate until we all agree with him. That sounds more nazi than anything Wifebeater ever did.

[Teabags]

Hahahaha. Why?

He was starting shit with the bouncers I think. The entrance to the club was about 25 steps, and he got chucked down them from what I heard.

Hahahaha. Why?

They guy was giving MG the finger and calling them fag pussies etc, so since the stage was about 5 foot hight, RJ just walked over and kicked one of them in the face. Think Chris the drummer may have also threw a glass at one of them.

unsurprisingly, it was the Anal Cunt guys that got kicked out, not MG.

[Rob_86]

so if i was to be debating the issue, would you not stop "debating" until I agree with you?

What if I don't agree with you, are you going to keep telling me that I should?

Are you just trying to wind me up or something? I shall not be wound!

No but if you're not seeing my point, and I'm not seeing yours then something is wrong. In my opinion, the world is a certain way, and so long as we both agree with shared base moralities ( as stated a few posts earlier - things such as art shouldn't always come above suffering, humans shouldn't needlessly suffer etc) then there is no need to assume there is no correct moral analysis. I know it differs from situation to situation, but the point holds. I'm not a big thing fan of relativism in morality anymore, unless there are zero shared bases, which I would hope is not the case here - else the debate would have turned in pretty seperate directions to what it did.

There's nothing wrong in debating until some sort of shared stance is met, even if it is not the full one that started the discussion, indeed in moral issues it seems odd to debate just to shout opinions at each other and then stop before reaching this.

[Rob_86]

I'd like to point out that Wifebeater are not (or more specifically were not) a nazi band.

And the reason I had a go at Rob in earlier posts was his unwillingness to accept other people's opinions that disagreed with his own. He's just made it abundantly clear that he won't leave this debate until we all agree with him. That sounds more nazi than anything Wifebeater ever did.

I honestly don't get you at all - I said the above posts, about agreement in debate being important, and you twist it into that. Seriously, whats the point in doing that just to bad mouth someone? If you have no interest in the issue, don't post, it's as simple as that - no one is making you stay.

[Bigsby]

I honestly don't get you at all - I said the above posts, about agreement in debate being important, and you twist it into that. Seriously, whats the point in doing that just to bad mouth someone? If you have no interest in the issue, don't post, it's as simple as that - no one is making you stay.

Hey, he was here first.

[Guest Exposure @ Lemon Tree]

I honestly don't get you at all - I said the above posts, about agreement in debate being important, and you twist it into that. Seriously, whats the point in doing that just to bad mouth someone? If you have no interest in the issue, don't post, it's as simple as that - no one is making you stay.

I posted that before you posted that nonsense about seeing each other's side to the story.

Almost every one of your last 20 posts read like you are not giving anything on your opinion and you only showed any sign of letting up when someone suggested they might just agree with you. Then you suggested you would keep going till we agreed with you.

I do have an interest in the subject, hence all my lengthy posts on the subject.

But you keep coming back trying to get us to agree with your point of view merely because it was made in a logical way, and going on and on about this philosophy and that philosophy. Again, I reiterate - it doesn't make your points any more correct.

I (and a few others) disagree with your points on the fact that a band like Wifebeater may have promoted domestic violence. We have pointed out in great detail why we believe this not to be the case.

I still actually think you're taking the piss to be honest. I can't believe any right-minded individual would think Wifebeater could have promoted domestic violence, other than those who have jumped the gun and saw the name of the band and thought the worst. A little bit of digging shows that they were taking the piss, and that anyone who was actually subjected to their music could not possibly be encouraged to go and beat up their wife. That is my opinion.

Keeping going and going until everyone agrees with you, without actually putting forward any stronger an argument than "well, I put my thoughts forward logically" isn't getting you anywhere.

I am never going to agree that Wifebeater should have been more careful about their approach, nor that bands should be somehow censored/banned etc. because of the contents of their songs. Lots of examples of potentially more offensive bands have been listed nearer the beginning of this thread, that have sold records and played to thousands of people and everything. None of them got banned, and nor should they. If people are offended by music or any form of art, just ignore it. Simple as that.

[davidm]

Any further projects in the pipeline?

something. not sure exactly what it'll sound like but we are hoping for something like a cross between

myspace.com/charlesbronsonmuthafuck

myspace.com/infestband

i think

who knows!

[Rob_86]

I posted that before you posted that nonsense about seeing each other's side to the story.

Almost every one of your last 20 posts read like you are not giving anything on your opinion and you only showed any sign of letting up when someone suggested they might just agree with you. Then you suggested you would keep going till we agreed with you.

I do have an interest in the subject, hence all my lengthy posts on the subject.

But you keep coming back trying to get us to agree with your point of view merely because it was made in a logical way, and going on and on about this philosophy and that philosophy. Again, I reiterate - it doesn't make your points any more correct.

I (and a few others) disagree with your points on the fact that a band like Wifebeater may have promoted domestic violence. We have pointed out in great detail why we believe this not to be the case.

I still actually think you're taking the piss to be honest. I can't believe any right-minded individual would think Wifebeater could have promoted domestic violence, other than those who have jumped the gun and saw the name of the band and thought the worst. A little bit of digging shows that they were taking the piss, and that anyone who was actually subjected to their music could not possibly be encouraged to go and beat up their wife. That is my opinion.

Keeping going and going until everyone agrees with you, without actually putting forward any stronger an argument than "well, I put my thoughts forward logically" isn't getting you anywhere.

I am never going to agree that Wifebeater should have been more careful about their approach, nor that bands should be somehow censored/banned etc. because of the contents of their songs. Lots of examples of potentially more offensive bands have been listed nearer the beginning of this thread, that have sold records and played to thousands of people and everything. None of them got banned, and nor should they. If people are offended by music or any form of art, just ignore it. Simple as that.

Nonsense lol! Yep, you're right, the point of debate is to disagree, and just to shout opinions at one another.

No offence mate, but out of everyone one here, I wouldn't expect you to take anything on board other than your own opinion. I don't know you at all, but you've come across to me as someone who isn't interested in being reasonable. I'm not trying to force views on anyone, just debate the issue, which clearly isn't what you want to hear, but it is the truth. I've reiterated my views in different ways, and along with a few others have looked at it from different angles, and come to some shared agreements - none of which entailed one of us ditching our views in favour of the others.

I have responded to your points made above (about the obvious irony, the not directly promoting violence etc), many a time, and don't see the point in doing it again. If you wanna act like a prick, and twist everything in the hope of making me look like a twat, fair enough.

[Guest idol_wild]

something. not sure exactly what it'll sound like but we are hoping for something like a cross between

myspace.com/charlesbronsonmuthafuck

myspace.com/infestband

i think

who knows!

You should call your next project Turdburglar and sing songs about beating homosexuals.

[Nev]

Guys, I only get an hour for lunch and I've spent half of it reading this pish, before giving up due to being dizzy thanks to the circles it was going in.

All I have to say is that Rob's comments would be much more convincing if he could spell the word "malleable", which completely detracted from the otherwise authoritative-sounding points being made.

That, and if he backed up his points with more than just a critique of how well structured said points were, without any reasoning as to why he made those points.

That was about all I picked up before falling asleep.

[HairyScaryMark]

I foolishly wasted quite a lot of time by reading the silly argument over the last many pages.

Personally. I do not understand why after being shown further information anyone could still think Wifebeater are in any way dangerous or may influence people into beating wives.They are no longer a band and even when they were they had very few fans.

It is clear that a song such as "where's my fucking tea" is not meant to be serious. I would claim it is 'clearly ironic'.

Jake gave me a Wifebeater badge and I don't tend to wear badges so I kept it in my pocket and later found it. A female friend of mine asked if they could have it and so did my sister on another ocasion. They could see the irony. Clearly some people either can't or just enjoying winding people up on here.

[Alkaline]

[Rob_86]

Guys, I only get an hour for lunch and I've spent half of it reading this pish, before giving up due to being dizzy thanks to the circles it was going in.

All I have to say is that Rob's comments would be much more convincing if he could spell the word "malleable", which completely detracted from the otherwise authoritative-sounding points being made.

That, and if he backed up his points with more than just a critique of how well structured said points were, without any reasoning as to why he made those points.

That was about all I picked up before falling asleep.

Sorry, I can't spell so my argument is mute - i forgot that great rule of discussion.

Pleanty of reasoning in there mate if you wanna take a look back to the begining - if you disagree with me why not counter the arguments rather than making clever sounding swipes at me? Two can play the 'analyse what the comments are doing in a bid to devalue the overall argument' game...

[Rob_86]

I foolishly wasted quite a lot of time by reading the silly argument over the last many pages.

Personally. I do not understand why after being shown further information anyone could still think Wifebeater are in any way dangerous or may influence people into beating wives.They are no longer a band and even when they were they had very few fans.

It is clear that a song such as "where's my fucking tea" is not meant to be serious. I would claim it is 'clearly ironic'.

Jake gave me a Wifebeater badge and I don't tend to wear badges so I kept it in my pocket and later found it. A female friend of mine asked if they could have it and so did my sister on another ocasion. They could see the irony. Clearly some people either can't or just enjoying winding people up on here.

As discussed earlier, the point about irony only works if the irony is clear to everyone, not just those alternative teens/friends/fans/whoever who are looking for it.

And also it was discussed how they could influence people earlier/the idea of how culture works, I won't go over the entire argument again for fear of being guilty of the terrible crime of going around in circles - but perhaps if folk read back over these bits, we wouldn't have to go back in circles!!

[Guest Exposure @ Lemon Tree]

Rob, I'm not trying to wind you up or trying to make you look like a twat. If you don't agree with my point that's fine, I'm not trying to force it upon you. It just seems as if that's what you're trying to do with your opinions. It's not a case of shouting opposing opinions at each other either. I can accept that it's your opinion, doesn't mean I have to agree with it. Fucking hell, if we all agreed on everything it would be a rather boring place.

The things I don't like about your posts:

You come across as patronising.

Your constant use of the word "nazi bands" in a thread about Wifebeater

Everytime I put forward a counter argument, you just come back saying I'm trying to make you look like a twat. You keep going on and on about me not putting forward any valid points, but all you're doing in response to my valid arguments is getting all defensive and telling me to go away.

By all means, have an opinion, but don't get all upset when the majority don't agree with you.

[The Sloth]

someone said Anal Cunt...

[scottyboy]

No I heard about them on here, posters around the place, and through my mates - and as already mentioned, not just by me, there is no sign that they are being ironic - and as they stated there aim was to piss people off, so presumably that is why they didn't let on. This thread started after they ended(or around that time?), not a lot of use at the time

So again, your just screaming "this band might encourage domestic abuse"? If you had heard the bands music, seen them live or whatever, before they had split, you would like everyone else here, realised they were ironic. If you had read the thread properly you would have seen a post by the lead singer stating they were a parody.

It all boils down to you and your friends' inability to discern irony.

[Rob_86]

Rob, I'm not trying to wind you up or trying to make you look like a twat. If you don't agree with my point that's fine, I'm not trying to force it upon you. It just seems as if that's what you're trying to do with your opinions. It's not a case of shouting opposing opinions at each other either. I can accept that it's your opinion, doesn't mean I have to agree with it. Fucking hell, if we all agreed on everything it would be a rather boring place.

The things I don't like about your posts:

You come across as patronising.

Your constant use of the word "nazi bands" in a thread about Wifebeater

Everytime I put forward a counter argument, you just come back saying I'm trying to make you look like a twat. You keep going on and on about me not putting forward any valid points, but all you're doing in response to my valid arguments is getting all defensive and telling me to go away.

By all means, have an opinion, but don't get all upset when the majority don't agree with you.

I apologise if I come across as patronising, I don't mean to. Nazi bands are something no-one has said they explicitly support the idea of, so they are a good place to start analogously speaking. And finally, I respond like that to your posts which are filled with things other than your arguments, those basic ones about irony and the such progressed, but your point stayed the same as if you weren't hearing any opposition points.

I'm not in the slightest bit upset, it's a bit odd to see so many people jumping on the freedom of speech bandwagon (though obviously if people agree with what I am saying they are not likely to reply, such is the way with forums - you mainly hear opposition). It doesn't upset me, your posts just seem overly aggressive and don't appear to want to progress the discussion - just tell everyone the same opinions that have already been progressed past. And as I have said before, if you don't want to progress them , you don't have to, seems a bit strange to keep posting the same thing though when you constantly say you don't want to debate - you want everyone to have their own opinions and keep them set in stone.

[Rob_86]

So again, your just screaming "this band might encourage domestic abuse"? If you had heard the bands music, seen them live or whatever, before they had split, you would like everyone else here, realised they were ironic. If you had read the thread properly you would have seen a post by the lead singer stating they were a parody.

It all boils down to you and your friends' inability to discern irony.

Excuse me, but this thread is about 20 days old, the band had been around for ages - please take this fact on board. And also, if society is full of idiots like me who can't discern the obvious irony in things like you oh so intelligent folks can, then your argument is essentailly society is stupid and so it doesn't matter what happens to it. Which is fair enough if thats your view, just thought I'd point it out. However if it is, it's pointless to pretend you're debating the view that wifebeater wouldn't have a negative influence - as clearly you realise they would and wouldn't care.

And no I'm not screaming they encourage domestic abuse, I've discussed how they are likely to have a negative effect on at least some folk - and this point is made countless times - especially well, I think, in the bit where we were talking about cultural effects and society prejudices towards sex.