Wind-up?

[Skubbs]

No, more that they agree with Wifebeaters approach to taking the piss out of the people who beat their wives.

The people who abuse women are idiots. Has any of the band said that they support it? No.

[The Milner]

Can we please close this thread?

That Dave mod is always going on about how this site should be useful and relevent, it's been the same recycled points made at least for the last ten pages.

Fucks sake. It's getting tedious.

you dont have to read it, just move onto another thread, there are plenty on here to read.

[The Milner]

No, more that they agree with Wifebeaters approach to taking the piss out of the people who beat their wives.

The people who abuse women are idiots. Has any of the band said that they support it? No.

ah ok cool i misread that then.

[Skubbs]

ah ok cool i misread that then.

The whole point is that the band were taking the piss. It wasn't a really serious "right we are trying to get our message across" thing, it was just an extension of wifebeating jokes, many of which have been posted in this thread, done in an entertaining way.

[The Milner]

The whole point is that the band were taking the piss. It wasn't a really serious "right we are trying to get our message across" thing, it was just an extension of wifebeating jokes, many of which have been posted in this thread, done in an entertaining way.

oh yeah i know they were taking the piss with this band and their lyrics, ive never doubted that, just misread that post and thought it ment something it didnt.

[Skubbs]

Feel a bit of a spiv now?

[The Milner]

Feel a bit of a spiv now?

constantly, you have no idea

[Skubbs]

You forget I'm female, apparently we know nothing haha

[The Milner]

You forget I'm female, apparently we know nothing haha

its ok im milner, i know less than women do according to most...

[Rob_86]

No twisting required my friend.

Urm you haven't proved anything...those two things don't contradict each other, theres just seperate points in an issue...

[Rob_86]

People should know right from wrong, it's not the responsiblity of bands to tell people how to take the music. Everyone has their own interpretation and it can be different from the band's intended message.

If someone takes the message of Wifebeater the wrong way and believes it's acceptable to go out and beat women then they have a serious problem, not Wifebeater.

On the same line people don't choose to be influenced!! You can't blame them either, doesn't change the fact that essentially the things that influences could be avoided, and the creator should be aware that they do have an effect on the world...

As for the second paragraph - should the BNP or something be without blame for inciting violence, if it turned out that at conferences they made it clear that they were being ironic? Of course not.

[Rob_86]

You're the one not making sense.

I didn't say humans are ticking time bombs waiting to turn violent. But I do think the people out there who commit (for example) murder are probably either driven to it because of something really bad happening in their life, like, for example someone totally screwing their life up - maybe breaking up a marriage/family, destryong a business, that sort of thing. Or, they have it in them in the first place, and something triggers it - could be something in their life. Or, they are mentally ill, and there's just something wrong in their mind. These are the kinds of people who could be influenced by video games/movies/songs/whatever. But, I think it is in them already.

But, you're the one not making sense, because you're trying to argue that music like that of Wifebeater has the potential to influence a human into abusing their wife, yet humans are not ticking timebombs waiting to go off. You're just going round in circles.

I've said my piece now, and I'm off.

You sound like one of these people that likes to overanalyse everything, and look far too deep into people's mindsets and all that bollocks. People should be allowed to be people, make their own choices/mistakes/etc. Yes, we are all influenced by everything around us, but anyone who would for example hear "Where's my fucking tea" and proceed to go home and shout and swear at their wife, and possibly physically abuse her has something far wrong with them in the first place, and blaming Wifebeater would just be an excuse.

Your first paragraph is highly debatable, I think most evidence would suggest that it is development (however big or small) that can influence people. And just because people already have a disposition to act sexist it doesn't clear wifebeater of possible blame for inciting them to do it - no matter what the intentions behind it. And it is a little different to accidentally inciting such actions isn't it?

I'm not saying music is at the heart of societies problems, or that wifebeater might cause an outbreak of nationwide domestic abuse. However, musicians have a responsibility to think what effect their actions might have (just like anyone in the public eye anymore than just someone walking down a street), and bands like this could well have a larger effect than intended.

Your argument is mainly based around trying to tie yourself, and myself into nots - whilst retaining an 'if I make it sound like hes a twat, and others agree then I win'. However, if you read back over my points, they are all pretty clear and logical points to make, anyone can see that, and if you want to debate the ACTUAL points then I'm happy to.

[scottyboy]

As for the second paragraph - should the BNP or something be without blame for inciting violence, if it turned out that at conferences they made it clear that they were being ironic? Of course not.

That's a ludicrous analogy. Something is either inherently ironic or it's not. One cannot "make it clear" be means of a disclaimer or whatever (you even missed my facetiousness back there). The BNP is not some sort of satire.

[Rob_86]

people are fans because they already agree with the lyrics you idiot. people relate to music because they RELATE TO IT

if you have anarchist opinions of course your going to end up listening to crass etc because they are talking about something you believe in and it makes you feel less alone.

i, and almost everyone here has disagreed with almost every finate point you have made. you arent wrong, but you definately arent correct, face it.

What?! Thats a bit of stupid point, and assumes that music doesn't ever give people values - are you aware of the anarcho punk scene's influence in the 80s? Or the effect live aid had on views about poverty (not a particularly useful one, but hey). I for one didn't have any particularly strong ethical values before my teenage years bought me into certain typse of punk, and I know a huge amount of people who had similar experiences.

And why would I face it that I am not correct? My points are all valid ones, and no one here has refuted them. The fact that everyone else refuses to accept them so far is simply a reflection of the folks in this thread rather than one that I am wrong - seeing as the majority of replies to me have been opinion based, and made no strong counter arguments.

[scottyboy]

What?! Thats a bit of stupid point, and assumes that music doesn't ever give people values - are you aware of the anarcho punk scene's influence in the 80s? Or the effect live aid had on views about poverty (not a particularly useful one, but hey). I for one didn't have any particularly strong ethical values before my teenage years bought me into certain typse of punk, and I know a huge amount of people who had similar experiences.

And why would I face it that I am not correct? My points are all valid ones, and no one here has refuted them. The fact that everyone else refuses to accept them so far is simply a reflection of the folks in this thread rather than one that I am wrong - seeing as the majority of replies to me have been opinion based, and made no strong counter arguments.

I countered them by pointing out the irony is clear.

[Rob_86]

That's a ludicrous analogy. Something is either inherently ironic or it's not. One cannot "make it clear" be means of a disclaimer or whatever (you even missed my facetiousness back there). The BNP is not some sort of satire.

Well in this case then, wifebeater are not ironic...Hang on, regardless, these are all arguments on the defintion of ironic, and intentions etc. The point is not any of these, but what the public see as the message. In particular, perhaps those maleable minds yet to form massively strong opinions on male/female roles, or those already disposed to acting towards sexist in their lives - not so much the fans of the band, friends of the band, anarcho punk scenesters (Im not sure that word has ever been used to describe anything other than high school musical fans before, sorry) or those of us 'analysing' the situation on either side.

[Rob_86]

I countered them by pointing out the irony is clear.

Lol, not really a counter.. more of a slant at people who don't get the irony which in any case must have been meant to be hidden, according to what the entire point of the band was. Unless you would like to suggest that I, several other people on this thread, a bunch of MPs, members of feminist groups and god knows how many other Aberdeen folk, are all just lying about us not getting the hilarious irony?

Similarly I countered back by showing 'clear' irony doesn't matter so long as at least some of the public don't see the irony - which is more than the case here.

I do appreciate the inherent insult, don't get me wrong, but it's not relevant.

[Guest Exposure @ Lemon Tree]

Yes, I know - I said I was done with this thread. But seriously, shut the hell up - what a load of balls you're spouting.

Wifebeater never at any point condoned wifebeating. They were taking the piss out of wifebeaters. Fucking hell.

Your point about Live Aid is shite too. None of the actual music (well apart from the single) at the Live Aid concerts had anything to do with poverty. It was famous people raising awareness by speaking about the issues.

You keep just coming back saying "nobody has raised any counter arguments". Yes we fucking have. Lots of them.

Please just give it up.

I've never seen Wifebeater live but from what I hear they probably never played to more than like 30 people, and most of them probably knew the band members anyway. It is clear to anyone who isn't a complete moron that these grown adults weren't promoting wifebeating, but taking the fucking piss.

Jesus.

[scottyboy]

So you think "where's my fucking tea" and "take that and that and that" sound like pretty straight-faced song titles? Everyone in this thread can see the incongruity between apparent literal meaning and underlying (or, "irony") in those.

But no, sure, we're all a confederacy of dunces who can't refute/comprehend your rambling "arguments".

[Rob_86]

Yes, I know - I said I was done with this thread. But seriously, shut the hell up - what a load of balls you're spouting.

Wifebeater never at any point condoned wifebeating. They were taking the piss out of wifebeaters. Fucking hell.

Your point about Live Aid is shite too. None of the actual music (well apart from the single) at the Live Aid concerts had anything to do with poverty. It was famous people raising awareness by speaking about the issues.

You keep just coming back saying "nobody has raised any counter arguments". Yes we fucking have. Lots of them.

Please just give it up.

I've never seen Wifebeater live but from what I hear they probably never played to more than like 30 people, and most of them probably knew the band members anyway. It is clear to anyone who isn't a complete moron that these grown adults weren't promoting wifebeating, but taking the fucking piss.

Jesus.

Firstly, I never say said they condoned, as I have said time and time before - intentions don't matter. The fact is that it appears to some like they do, and that their music appears to unless you are in on it, whcih it would seem myself and many others aren't.

Live aid was still music, I think you'd find it hard to take out the music and claim outright that music had nothing to do with it, but good luck with that Mr Grouchy.

And as for the last paragraph thanks again for the insult, I must be a total moron for caring and thinking about it. But again, I have not for a second pretended these guys did mean to promote wife beating (nice of you to read the previous posts). Do you want me to post that sentence again for the sake of it, or have you got that bit now?

[Rob_86]

So you think "where's my fucking tea" and "take that and that and that" sound like pretty straight-faced song titles? Everyone in this thread can see the incongruity between apparent literal meaning and underlying (or, "irony") in those.

But no, sure, we're all a confederacy of dunces who can't refute/comprehend your rambling "arguments".

No I'm positive you understand my arguments, I just don't think you will admit that there is more to the issue than what you want to think there is.

I was sure wifebeater were taking the piss with their music, but couldn't find any evidence of it anywhere when I actually looked - and yes I know it makes me and everyone else like me an idiot . If it was, like you all try to make clear, so obviously ironic, then I'm pretty sure that wouldn't be the case. Of course now I know there were mitigating factors (ie using the band to try piss people with genuine ethical concerns about stuff off) and so thats why I couldn't find this kinda stuff. Means little to everyone else who doesn't know this though. Let alone the impact such bands have if they do get even slightly well known on making a mockery of such serious events - but thats a discussion for another day

[scottyboy]

My point is that only a tiny minority of complete fuckwits could fail to see the clear irony and that their lack of intelligence should not be Wifebeater's problem. Again, what do you want them to do, put a disclaimer saying ATTENTION NOT ENTIRELY SERIOUS on their album covers?

[Guest Exposure @ Lemon Tree]

Firstly, I never say said they condoned, as I have said time and time before - intentions don't matter. The fact is that it appears to some like they do, and that their music appears to unless you are in on it, whcih it would seem myself and many others aren't.

Live aid was still music, I think you'd find it hard to take out the music and claim outright that music had nothing to do with it, but good luck with that Mr Grouchy.

And as for the last paragraph thanks again for the insult, I must be a total moron for caring and thinking about it. But again, I have not for a second pretended these guys did mean to promote wife beating (nice of you to read the previous posts). Do you want me to post that sentence again for the sake of it, or have you got that bit now?

Haha - you sound like such a twat.

Intentions this, intentions that. And, yes I do think you along with those stupid feminists and MSPs that have taken offence to Wifebeater are morons. If you took the time to listen to the songs, think about the song titles etc it is very clear that they are being ironic.

Live Aid was still music, but the actual songs had nothing to do with poverty. The musicians influenced people, not the music. Yes, they used their music to grab folk's attention, but they then spoke at great length about the subject. If they had just put on a concert called Live Aid, and donated what they made from it to the cause, without telling people about it, people wouldn't suddenly have started thinking about the poverty in the world. But, because they went on at great length about it, and highlighted the issues, with those harrowing videos etc. That is when people sat up and listened.

You keep making stupid analogies to back up your stupid points. Child Abuse, BNP, Poverty in Africa - fuck all to do with Wifebeater the band or even domestic abuse.

[Rob_86]

My point is that only a tiny minority of complete fuckwits could fail to see the clear irony and that their lack of intelligence should not be Wifebeater's problem. Again, what do you want to them to do, put a disclaimer saying ATTENTION NOT ENTIRELY SERIOUS on their album covers?

Do you have any respect for anyone? Please read my last post - wihtout going to a gig there was not one sign that it was irony. There do exist sexist bands, there do exist nazi bands, there do exist bands that promote violence - why is it so 'fuckwitting' (you will have to tell me if this is the correct pronunciation) to assume this one promotes two of those, seeing as there appears to be no evidence to say the opposite? Sorry but I am clearly a fuckwit, and have not studied such reasoning.

[Guest Exposure @ Lemon Tree]

Sorry but I am clearly a fuckwit.

Quoted for truth.