Wind-up?

[Rob_86]

correct (although 'completely stupid' is a bit strong...perhaps 'lacking in awareness', or 'deliberately avoiding awareness' might be more apt).

Hopefully you are now aware, and we can all relax and enjoy the music.

Well I didn't deliberately avoid it, I assumed the irony, and couldn't find any so stopped assuming. That's fair enough, and seems much more intelligent than most of the arguments I have heard on here. I would say, sarcasm aside, that stupidity would rest with those who try to justify things like this with appeal to low forms of wit like irony. I mean it's a matter of taste (not much taste in my opinion, but that's just an opinion) as to whether irony like that is funny, but as to denying it's impact because you like it/like being ironic/like defending these mythical virtues like freedom of speech that most music ceases to exercise usefully anyway these days, then that is both ignorant, unaware and stupid. In my OPINION. People like to give their opinion on here rather than using logical arguments, so I thought I'd give mine

[unbroken]

are you still posting?

This is old news, get over it, not that many people agree with what you are saying, and no one wants to hear your side....

So!!!

New Dylan album, YAS!

[Guest Exposure @ Lemon Tree]

I've came to the conclusion that this is some sort of elaborate wind up to prove a point.

Rob_86 has been taking the piss out of everyone, and isn't actually being serious. The fact that he's hooked us in, and we've argued with him, despite the fact that he's clearly taking the piss, will, in his mind go some way to prove that not everyone would realise Wifebeater were being ironic.

Or something like that.

[Rob_86]

are you still posting?

This is old news, get over it, not that many people agree with what you are saying, and no one wants to hear your side....

So!!!

New Dylan album, YAS!

Sorry yeah, I should just be quiet and not put my views across, or argue actual reason - it's not like most people are arguing freedom of speech or anything is it. Why not jump off the bandwagon for a second? It's a bit of shame people can't discuss things, and when having their views challenged respond with anger that someone isn't thinking in line with everyone else. This is a thread for discussion of this, and I am discussing it - deal with it, or perhaps don't read it as it will only make you challenge your ignorant views - and God forbid you might be wrong about something.

What I have said is pretty simple - if a band is acting like a Nazi band, all be it intentionally ironic, and yet there is no outward sign of this irony to the masses, then there is no difference. Simple as that, whether you like it or not, that is how most of us saw the band. - it then becomes the problem of such nazi bands (which I am not for a second saying the guys in this band were - I don't know them), which surely you can't all argue for freedom of speech over incitings to violence and the such? Is that really what our underground music scene has become? A cause for absolute and undying freedom over all else?

[Monster Zero]

Whether the band's original intent was irony, a piss-take or incitement to back-handing the missus, it was a project that Viz comic may have declared too low-brow a concept, can it nae just die in peace, why spend eons arguing about a band that have packed it in?

Personally, I never saw the point of it at all, it just seemed a bit immature, The Macc Lads for the Noughties.

[Rob_86]

I've came to the conclusion that this is some sort of elaborate wind up to prove a point.

Rob_86 has been taking the piss out of everyone, and isn't actually being serious. The fact that he's hooked us in, and we've argued with him, despite the fact that he's clearly taking the piss, will, in his mind go some way to prove that not everyone would realise Wifebeater were being ironic.

Or something like that.

I would take your comments on board if you hadn't ignored my points all the way through, and weren't just trying to wind me up now. Perhaps you should try and make me sound like a dick again, will that make you feel better? Don't for a second try debating the actual issue, wouldn't wanna actually get anywhere.

[unbroken]

Sorry yeah, I should just be quiet and not put my views across, or argue actual reason - it's not like most people are arguing freedom of speech or anything is it. Why not jump off the bandwagon for a second? It's a bit of shame people can't discuss things, and when having their views challenged respond with anger that someone isn't thinking in line with everyone else. This is a thread for discussion of this, and I am discussing it - deal with it, or perhaps don't read it as it will only make you challenge your ignorant views - and God forbid you might be wrong about something.

What I have said is pretty simple - if a band is acting like a Nazi band, all be it intentionally ironic, and yet there is no outward sign of this irony to the masses, then there is no difference. Simple as that, whether you like it or not, that is how most of us saw the band. - it then becomes the problem of such nazi bands (which I am not for a second saying the guys in this band were - I don't know them), which surely you can't all argue for freedom of speech over incitings to violence and the such? Is that really what our underground music scene has become? A cause for absolute and undying freedom over all else?

blah blah blah, its all old news, everyone is over it.

[Rob_86]

Whether the band's original intent was irony, a piss-take or incitement to back-handing the missus, it was a project that Viz comic may have declared too low-brow a concept, can it nae just die in peace, why spend eons arguing about a band that have packed it in?

Personally, I never saw the point of it at all, it just seemed a bit immature, The Macc Lads for the Noughties.

I just think it's an important thing to get straight, and a useful thing to everyone to think about. Everyone is speaking about it as PC gone mad, when in actual fact it doesn't really fit into that category at all. It is however good to get it straight that freedom of speech should have it's limits, as often musicians fail to see this. There are worse things in the world than stopping yourself from making a band to piss people off, if say it could have negative impacts on things like domestic abuse. That's all I'm saying...though I have had to say it a few times, and in a few different ways I admit...taking on board a lot of useful criticism along the way...

[Rob_86]

blah blah blah, its all old news, everyone is over it.

Good God, grow up. I'm afraid domestic abuse is a problem even if it doesn't affect you, so this issue is worth debating. Sorry if it's getting in the way of you discussing a new abulm, why not start a new thread?

[Guest Exposure @ Lemon Tree]

I would take your comments on board if you hadn't ignored my points all the way through, and weren't just trying to wind me up now. Perhaps you should try and make me sound like a dick again, will that make you feel better? Don't for a second try debating the actual issue, wouldn't wanna actually get anywhere.

I did try debating and put my points across but you just keep coming back with your "I am holier than thou" views about the psychology of humans etc etc.

You haven't actually made a point in about 20 posts. You made some points clearly and they were fair points, most people disagreed with your points and said why they disagreed, and offered some counter arguments, then you just came back and wrote about 4 paragraphs a time, saying 20 words when you could have used none, to try and justify each point by saying your point was made in a reasonable, well put manner.

It doesn't make your point any more correct, and we still disagree with your points.

I got a bit sick of you spouting off about it - it was only then that I started saying things like you're talking balls etc etc.

You're the one trying to belittle people with your "I'm so much more intelligent than you" opinions of the pschology of human beings etc, but you haven't given us any authority for your views. Are you a pschologist/student/on drugs? What exactly gives you the authority to know more about this stuff than the 6 or 7 people on here who all disagree with you?

I know how human beings work because I am one, and know many others. I haven't studied it in great detail, but I interact with human beings on a daily basis and have done for 27 years. I am an intelligent guy, I have two degrees, and prizes and stuff for coming top of my class at uni, but not in the field of psychology. I'm just using my personal experiences through life (which are apparently the most important thing in developing me as a human being) to come to my conclusions.

[Bigsby]

Lol, yep I'm sure people will read your post and assume you are correct - unfortunately just disagreeing doesn't counter arguments, and I have refuted every single response quiote reasonably. Perhaps you could study a course in logic or something? You seem to think that replying once, with comments that are then easily refuted, is a winning method - let me assure you it is not. I hope the insults are fun for you though - it's nice to know that kind of thing is the way to discuss issues on this board.

And fatally flawed, that would imply my argument didn't logically follow on, or was false at some point - at which no one has pointed out the part it was. There has been discussion, but I'm pretty sure I have answered the replies. The go to card of 'it's Political Correctness gone mad!' didn't work as there are reasonable links to negative impact, and the 'everybody who doesn't get purposefully hidden irony is a twat so it doesn't matter', now that is a flawed argument. Perhaps you could say why it is fatally flawed, because I think the other guys who did must have deleted their posts - either that or your throwing your insults around for no reason - and that's not like you. Unless you're going to sit on the ace in the musicians pack - 'musicians shouldn't be responsible for their impact on people'. Oh yeah I totally agree, after all musicians are Gods who shouldn't have to answer to anyone...or is there a new argument, perhaps based around 'you're a knob, and you don't realise it's cool to offend people - hence this music is justified'?

Sigh. For the avoidance of doubt, the statement of yours that I took issue with was this:

And on the subject of how comedians get away with being ironic, well that is exactly what comedians are - people making a living of of such things. (These two froms of performance are different in a number of ways which I would imagine have some relevance here, ie the fact people into music will take a lot of the subject of music into their hearts, such is the nature of this particular artform, whereas the same isn't generally true of comedy)

As I explained, I believe that this argument - the argument that it is ok for comedians to be ironic, but not musicians (that's what the quote says) is unsound, as I don't accept your contention that people necessarily "take the subject of music into their hearts... whereas the same isn't generally true of comedy". I've already given numerous examples of "funny" songs that could be seen as offensive if the listener did not appreciate the intended irony, but I could give some more if you like, how about "Rednecks" by Randy Newman? "We're rednecks, we're rednecks, we're keeping the niggers down." Should that song be banned?

You went on to say:

That's not my rationale - my rationale is if something which isn't clearly ironic promotes domestic violence (or any other discriminatory act) then it is dangerous to some of those taking it on board.

But I still don't think you have been able to say how and when we can determine when something is or isn't clearly ironic. And therein lies the rub. Different people will respond to it in different ways.

You can SAY that your argument is logical, or that you have displayed "sound reasoning", but that doesn't necessarily mean that it is true. As you seem to be coming round to, all of this, whether music, lyrics, film, games etc, is subjective - we are not dealing in "facts" here. You cannot possibly say that Wifebeater were "wrong" or "bad", anymore than you can say the Brand/Ross stuff was, because slomeone else will have a different take on the matter.

It's a bit of shame people can't discuss things, and when having their views challenged respond with anger that someone isn't thinking in line with everyone else.

I don't think anyone was responding with anger, yes there was gentle piss-taking going on but that's just what happens on this forum. Apart from a couple of apparently genuine fall outs between members (not involving me, I love everybody ), everybody gets on pretty well, despite making a few digs here and there. If you are going to stick around (and I hope you do) then you should probably get used to it, and learn not to be offended. That said, I think it is slightly presumptious to come into a thread in which the tone had been set for weeks and then expect a serious debate.

[unbroken]

this thread isn't directy about domestic abuse though, its now somehow about wifebeater being a "nazi" band, so don't tell me to grow up. If you want to go and talk politics, put a post in the Politics and Current affairs forum, and stop dragging out this thread. No one cares about all this malarky as much as they did maybe 2/3 weeks ago, and the only reason people are replying is (mostly) to tell you that you are wrong.

So stop posting here, and go there instead.

Can we close this thread please?

[Skubbs]

34 pages and still going in circles... aargh

Agree to disagree? Rob-person, you obviously didn't go to a gig therefore wouldn't know what the set and atmosphere was like, so your argument is invalid regarding the "influence" issue. No-one would become a wifebeater after hearing about a band name! If you didn't see them, then you don't know the whole story and can't back it up with evidence.

Right, end of bloody discussion. It's just going to grow and grow, more names thrown about and points already made will be made again

[Rob_86]

I did try debating and put my points across but you just keep coming back with your "I am holier than thou" views about the psychology of humans etc etc.

You haven't actually made a point in about 20 posts. You made some points clearly and they were fair points, most people disagreed with your points and said why they disagreed, and offered some counter arguments, then you just came back and wrote about 4 paragraphs a time, saying 20 words when you could have used none, to try and justify each point by saying your point was made in a reasonable, well put manner.

It doesn't make your point any more correct, and we still disagree with your points.

I got a bit sick of you spouting off about it - it was only then that I started saying things like you're talking balls etc etc.

You're the one trying to belittle people with your "I'm so much more intelligent than you" opinions of the pschology of human beings etc, but you haven't given us any authority for your views. Are you a pschologist/student/on drugs? What exactly gives you the authority to know more about this stuff than the 6 or 7 people on here who all disagree with you?

I know how human beings work because I am one, and know many others. I haven't studied it in great detail, but I interact with human beings on a daily basis and have done for 27 years. I am an intelligent guy, I have two degrees, and prizes and stuff for coming top of my class at uni, but not in the field of psychology. I'm just using my personal experiences through life (which are apparently the most important thing in developing me as a human being) to come to my conclusions.

Any point that people has made that ahs been a valid one has been debated. When people have just gone - i disagree followed by some odd observation that makes little sense as to how the world is, of course I defer backt o original points that are more fair reflections, that is a pretty fair way to debate.

With all due respect, I am not doubting your intelligence, I'm sure you are a clever guy. But in this debate you haven't been particularly open with your responses, or as to why my points are wrong. I don't personally think that when debating a point it is enough to just spout an opinion, I think you have to use reasons why. And on these I have always responded, and will continue to.

[Guest Exposure @ Lemon Tree]

Any point that people has made that ahs been a valid one has been debated. When people have just gone - i disagree followed by some odd observation that makes little sense as to how the world is, of course I defer backt o original points that are more fair reflections, that is a pretty fair way to debate.

With all due respect, I am not doubting your intelligence, I'm sure you are a clever guy. But in this debate you haven't been particularly open with your responses, or as to why my points are wrong. I don't personally think that when debating a point it is enough to just spout an opinion, I think you have to use reasons why. And on these I have always responded, and will continue to.

Have you read my initial posts in this thread?

I put my opinion across on how people can be influenced by music/movies/whatever etc. but my opinion (which isn't a professional opinion - is yours?) is that people who commit crimes/violence/murder/rape/insert horrible crime will probably have some sort of disposition to this before they hear the song/see the movie/etc or will be driven to it by something that's happened in their lives.

In short, someone who commits murder must have some mental health issues, if they are willing to take the life of another human being (excepting things like self defence).

This is why I disagree with your OPINION (i.e. not "fact") that a band like Wifebeater could incite domestic abuse. It has been said lots and lots of times above that they were taking the piss. The name of the band was Wifebeater. That is all the information anyone would have on the band before listening to them on myspace or going to their gigs. Their songs and their gigs were clearly taking the piss and anyone who actually cared to listen to them would get that. I would put money on the fact that this band never incited one incident of domestic abuse.

[Rob_86]

Sigh. For the avoidance of doubt, the statement of yours that I took issue with was this:

As I explained, I believe that this argument - the argument that it is ok for comedians to be ironic, but not musicians (that's what the quote says) is unsound, as I don't accept your contention that people necessarily "take the subject of music into their hearts... whereas the same isn't generally true of comedy". I've already given numerous examples of "funny" songs that could be seen as offensive if the listener did not appreciate the intended irony, but I could give some more if you like, how about "Rednecks" by Randy Newman? "We're rednecks, we're rednecks, we're keeping the niggers down." Should that song be banned?

You went on to say:

But I still don't think you have been able to say how and when we can determine when something is or isn't clearly ironic. And therein lies the rub. Different people will respond to it in different ways.

You can SAY that your argument is logical, or that you have displayed "sound reasoning", but that doesn't necessarily mean that it is true. As you seem to be coming round to, all of this, whether music, lyrics, film, games etc, is subjective - we are not dealing in "facts" here. You cannot possibly say that Wifebeater were "wrong" or "bad", anymore than you can say the Brand/Ross stuff was, because slomeone else will have a different take on the matter.

I don't think anyone was responding with anger, yes there was gentle piss-taking going on but that's just what happens on this forum. Apart from a couple of apparently genuine fall outs between members (not involving me, I love everybody ), everybody gets on pretty well, despite making a few digs here and there. If you are going to stick around (and I hope you do) then you should probably get used to it, and learn not to be offended. That said, I think it is slightly presumptious to come into a thread in which the tone had been set for weeks and then expect a serious debate.

I made the point comedians get away with being ironic easier, as it is their job, not that it is one rule for one and one for another medium. I am quite happy to admit there may well be comedians who push this too far, I just don't know of any/think there are any in the public sphere.

As for banning songs, I haven't approached that issue. My point (among others) has been that wifebeater could have had a negative impact, which I am only one of hundreds to have seen by the sounds of it's public discussion, and that it doesn't clear them of responsibility just because they were being ironic (or say they were or whatever) after splitting up - or 'hiding it' in while together.

As for the similarities with Ross/Brand, it's very different. What they did was offensive to the guy were calling, and perhaps did influence a lot of folks to say 'hey theres nothing wrong with treating other people with this lack of respect' but I don't know enough about that situation to pass comment. This one is different, though it has many similarities obviously.

And don't get me wrong, I am not in the slightest bit offended by the insults - just think it is a bit of a piss poor reply to make when your discussing issues of ethical concern, for which there are people who do suffer in. As even if you do think I'm wrong, it's still an important issue.

[Rob_86]

34 pages and still going in circles... aargh

Agree to disagree? Rob-person, you obviously didn't go to a gig therefore wouldn't know what the set and atmosphere was like, so your argument is invalid regarding the "influence" issue. No-one would become a wifebeater after hearing about a band name! If you didn't see them, then you don't know the whole story and can't back it up with evidence.

Right, end of bloody discussion. It's just going to grow and grow, more names thrown about and points already made will be made again

With all due respect I don't think you grasp the idea of influence, and aren't willing to discuss it so we will have to agree to disagree. It certainly isn't true that people indulge in domestic abuse just because of childhood trauma, or genetic disposition. Cultural signs have a massive effect - and this kinda thing is one of them.

[unbroken]

Have you read my initial posts in this thread?

I put my opinion across on how people can be influenced by music/movies/whatever etc. but my opinion (which isn't a professional opinion - is yours?) is that people who commit crimes/violence/murder/rape/insert horrible crime will probably have some sort of disposition to this before they hear the song/see the movie/etc or will be driven to it by something that's happened in their lives.

In short, someone who commits murder must have some mental health issues, if they are willing to take the life of another human being (excepting things like self defence).

This is why I disagree with your OPINION (i.e. not "fact") that a band like Wifebeater could incite domestic abuse. It has been said lots and lots of times above that they were taking the piss. The name of the band was Wifebeater. That is all the information anyone would have on the band before listening to them on myspace or going to their gigs. Their songs and their gigs were clearly taking the piss and anyone who actually cared to listen to them would get that. I would put money on the fact that this band never incited one incident of domestic abuse.

and lets not forget that whatever cash they raised was then donated to womens charities.

[Rob_86]

Have you read my initial posts in this thread?

I put my opinion across on how people can be influenced by music/movies/whatever etc. but my opinion (which isn't a professional opinion - is yours?) is that people who commit crimes/violence/murder/rape/insert horrible crime will probably have some sort of disposition to this before they hear the song/see the movie/etc or will be driven to it by something that's happened in their lives.

In short, someone who commits murder must have some mental health issues, if they are willing to take the life of another human being (excepting things like self defence).

This is why I disagree with your OPINION (i.e. not "fact") that a band like Wifebeater could incite domestic abuse. It has been said lots and lots of times above that they were taking the piss. The name of the band was Wifebeater. That is all the information anyone would have on the band before listening to them on myspace or going to their gigs. Their songs and their gigs were clearly taking the piss and anyone who actually cared to listen to them would get that. I would put money on the fact that this band never incited one incident of domestic abuse.

Mental health issues aren't neccesary for most murder/abuse, that's an outdated myth. you just need a disposition to not respect other humans and it is taken from there. And that disrespect is pretty much solid for most folk during youth due to poor/hypocritical decisions in education/governmental systems. It is clear that influences in culture do have an affect on a persons psyche, I would hope we don't disagree on that, and unless this undying respect for sentience/conmsciousness is taught in youth (which it isn't in any culture as far as I am aware) then the first layer is already built.

And as for your second paragraph, I would agree to some extent if it were obvious that they were taking the piss - but it wasn't, even as per their own admission that it was meant to piss people off, which it wouldn't have done if it was obvious they were bing ironic or whatever. That really should be the end of that particular point, the irony was not obvious - except apparently at gigs, for which about one person here knows!

[Rob_86]

and lets not forget that whatever cash they raised was then donated to womens charities.

Wasn't that a lie? I was under the impression that that particular womens charity said they didn't received the fund, and would have rejected them if they were offered.

[Bigsby]

I made the point comedians get away with being ironic easier, as it is their job

Um, no, you didn't.

And don't get me wrong, I am not in the slightest bit offended by the insults - just think it is a bit of a piss poor reply to make when your discussing issues of ethical concern, for which there are people who do suffer in. As even if you do think I'm wrong, it's still an important issue.

I don't think anyone, at any point has said that domestic violence is not an important issue. I just think it's strange that you think you can come into the middle of a thread where the tone has clearly been established for some time, expect serious debate, and then feign offense when people carry on as they have been doing for the previous 30 pages.

[unbroken]

Mental health issues aren't neccesary for most murder/abuse, that's an outdated myth. you just need a disposition to not respect other humans and it is taken from there. And that disrespect is pretty much solid for most folk during youth due to poor/hypocritical decisions in education/governmental systems. It is clear that influences in culture do have an affect on a persons psyche, I would hope we don't disagree on that, and unless this undying respect for sentience/conmsciousness is taught in youth (which it isn't in any culture as far as I am aware) then the first layer is already built.

And as for your second paragraph, I would agree to some extent if it were obvious that they were taking the piss - but it wasn't, even as per their own admission that it was meant to piss people off, which it wouldn't have done if it was obvious they were bing ironic or whatever. That really should be the end of that particular point, the irony was not obvious - except apparently at gigs, for which about one person here knows!

Dear Mr Textbook,

You are bringing this thread around full circle and it is very boring.

Yours

[unbroken]

Wasn't that a lie? I was under the impression that that particular womens charity said they didn't received the fund, and would have rejected them if they were offered.

no it wasn't a lie, if you had read the rest of this thread, you would have realised that the woman who said that is an absolute tot.

[Teabags]

I'd go as far as to say that the incessant recurring banality of this thread is more likely to incite hatred and cases of domestic abuse than any Wifebeater song/release/gig/joke.

[Skubbs]

With all due respect I don't think you grasp the idea of influence, and aren't willing to discuss it so we will have to agree to disagree. It certainly isn't true that people indulge in domestic abuse just because of childhood trauma, or genetic disposition. Cultural signs have a massive effect - and this kinda thing is one of them.

Yes I understand influence, all I'm saying is that if you didn't go to one of the gigs then you don't fully understand what kind of band they were.

I never said that domestic abuse has childhood roots, I just said that in development iit s more influential in childhood. Some people just can't handle their emotions well etc...

You're trying to put across a point that we can all understand, but don't agree with so this thread is going to go on for ages and I'm sure everyone's bored of restating their points but because neither side is agreeing or backing down, so it's going to keep happening.