Wind-up?

[Rob_86]

It's such a pile of balls. I remember doing some sort of essay or something on "video nasties" years ago.

It's such a crap argument. One person copies Basketball Diaries so it's to blame. The guy who shot up that school in America would have copied something else, or just done it his own way or whatever. There has to be something going wrong in your head before you copy a movie or computer game and commit murder. Like Milner says - I've watched many a violent movie/played many a violent computer game and I haven't inflicted violence on anyone in my life, other than the odd playground scuffle. Nor have I nicked a car, or committed any sort of crime whatsoever.

If individuals are going to commit crimes, be violent or whatever, they are going to do it regardless. There's no doubt that these video games/movies etc trigger something within them, but we can't go all nanny state and ban everything because it might trigger something off in someone who's going to be triggered by something else at some point in their lives anyway.

Erm, this point has already been discussed and mostly answered. Again though, I would bring up the fact that you have a gross misunderstanding of how humans work (or at least are speaking like you do). I don't mean to sound patronising, but humans are influenced by things, aren't creatures set in stone, and take a suprising amount from things in their life - especially art. There's no doubt that bands can influence people in huge ways, just because you or I aren't doesnt mean it doesn't happen I'm afraid. I mean even just look at you, arguing for freedom of music over all else - or were you just always hard wired to put free speech above all of the other rights? regardless of the impact that it has. Perhaps people should be allowed to kill, so long as they use musical instruments and sing while they are doing it?! Sorry couldnt resist

[Skubbs]

Erm with all due respect, if a black guy disagrees with a racist band being bad then it doesn't stand as an advert for the band being non-racist, but rather that even those in groups which suffer discrimination can be unaware or insensitive to the issue. And as I have already said, if a few people get the irony, and stupid (or perhaps a better word is neutral) folk like me don't, then there is still an issue.

I wonder if you'd be so happy to join/support a band taking the piss out of children who have been raped? Even if their intentions were ironic. Would you be a 'tit taking everything too seriously'? Or is that completely different, despite the fact it is completely the same?

A black guy disagreeing with a racist band is a bad example. Wifebeater weren't a domestic-abuse supporting band - they don't agree with it and took the piss out of people who do beat their wives... A racist band would be a group who support racist views. I'm sure if it was a band who make a joke of racism and the racist viewpoints then the black guy wouldn't have so much of a problem.

Child rape and wifebeating are not the same. I agree that they're both sensitive issues but the fact is we are discussing Wifebeater in this thread, a band who focused on domestic abuse, NOT child abuse.

[paranoid]

Erm, this point has already been discussed and mostly answered. Again though, I would bring up the fact that you have a gross misunderstanding of how humans work (or at least are speaking like you do). I don't mean to sound patronising, but humans are influenced by things, aren't creatures set in stone, and take a suprising amount from things in their life - especially art. There's no doubt that bands can influence people in huge ways, just because you or I aren't doesnt mean it doesn't happen I'm afraid. I mean even just look at you, arguing for freedom of music over all else - or were you just always hard wired to put free speech above all of the other rights? regardless of the impact that it has. Perhaps people should be allowed to kill, so long as they use musical instruments and sing while they are doing it?! Sorry couldnt resist

May I ask what your background is, that lets you make these in depth observations about the human race as a whole?

[Rob_86]

A black guy disagreeing with a racist band is a bad example. Wifebeater weren't a domestic-abuse supporting band - they don't agree with it and took the piss out of people who do beat their wives... A racist band would be a group who support racist views. I'm sure if it was a band who make a joke of racism and the racist viewpoints then the black guy wouldn't have so much of a problem.

Child rape and wifebeating are not the same. I agree that they're both sensitive issues but the fact is we are discussing Wifebeater in this thread, a band who focused on domestic abuse, NOT child abuse.

I'm sorry, but those analogies were pretty sound ones. As firstly, the point is what it is perceived as by the majority (or perhaps even a relevant enough minority) and not the actual views - which this issue can then share with the racist band analogy.

Child rape and wifebeating aren't the same thing, I never said they were. However they are both terrible behaviours that shouldn't be encouraged - and depending on the situation each can be seen as 'worse'. If you would disagree with a band making music about one of the issues, and being seen by the majority to be supporting it, then you can hardly disagree with the other without drawing discriminiations in your own views between women and children in their rights not to be abused. regardless of whether you are in one of these groups or not. And such a discrimination just isn't morally defendable.

[Rob_86]

May I ask what your background is, that lets you make these in depth observations about the human race as a whole?

Why? We are discussing an issue here - why should it be relevant what job, or background I have? If you disagree with what I have written feel free to say so, and why, but I don't see what relevance your question has.

Those views are just simple observations about human psychology, if you don't agree or think you have a better insight I'm happy to hear it? I'm not pretending I know everything about it, but it clearly isn't right to say that humans who do bad things were always meant to and were just waiting to be triggered. That just doesn'tmake sense.

[Skubbs]

Erm, this point has already been discussed and mostly answered. Again though, I would bring up the fact that you have a gross misunderstanding of how humans work (or at least are speaking like you do). I don't mean to sound patronising, but humans are influenced by things, aren't creatures set in stone, and take a suprising amount from things in their life - especially art. There's no doubt that bands can influence people in huge ways, just because you or I aren't doesnt mean it doesn't happen I'm afraid. I mean even just look at you, arguing for freedom of music over all else - or were you just always hard wired to put free speech above all of the other rights? regardless of the impact that it has. Perhaps people should be allowed to kill, so long as they use musical instruments and sing while they are doing it?! Sorry couldnt resist

Humans are most susceptible to influence in childhood and it's mostly due to their family and school. Once into adolescence then peer groups do affect opinions etc... but music is not a massive contributing factor where people will uniformly follow the lyrics. If so, then having been brough up on The Doors I should be taking drugs all the time.

You have to remember that a lot of the psychological studies into computer game violence etc... weren't well thought out experiements - the participants knew it was a psychological study therefore the results were grossly affected.

[Guest Exposure @ Lemon Tree]

Erm, this point has already been discussed and mostly answered. Again though, I would bring up the fact that you have a gross misunderstanding of how humans work (or at least are speaking like you do). I don't mean to sound patronising, but humans are influenced by things, aren't creatures set in stone, and take a suprising amount from things in their life - especially art. There's no doubt that bands can influence people in huge ways, just because you or I aren't doesnt mean it doesn't happen I'm afraid. I mean even just look at you, arguing for freedom of music over all else - or were you just always hard wired to put free speech above all of the other rights? regardless of the impact that it has. Perhaps people should be allowed to kill, so long as they use musical instruments and sing while they are doing it?! Sorry couldnt resist

I'm sorry, but that's just bollocks. Not the most eloquent way of putting it, but that's what I think of your over-analysing of the human race.

Artistic expression is very important, yes, but I don't think I said at any point that I put freedom of speech above all else. I just want to live in a free world. You can't prevent everything bad in the world, it's just impossible. You can ban this and that, but all the violence etc will find some other way out of that person. Something will influence or affect them during their life to trigger whatever it is inside them that makes them do the terrible things they do.

What caused murderers/abusers/criminals to do these things before there were things like CD players to listen to bands like Wifebeater?

Do you seriously think that a band like Wifebeater would influence even just one person to go home and beat their wife? Seriously?

You, my friend, need help.

[Bigsby]

There's no doubt that bands can influence people in huge ways, just because you or I aren't doesnt mean it doesn't happen I'm afraid.

Could you please provide a handy "Cut Out and Keep" list of who is allowed to say offensive things and who isn't?

So far we know that comedians can, because everyone knows they are just having a laugh, but bands can't because people take them very seriously.

I haven't really been following closely but I gather films and computer games are a no-no too, perhaps you can clarify.

If you could let me know the rules on books, theatre and Bebo pages I'll be all set. Ta.

[paranoid]

Why? We are discussing an issue here - why should it be relevant what job, or background I have? If you disagree with what I have written feel free to say so, and why, but I don't see what relevance your question has.

Unbunch your y fronts, I only wondered if you were coming from a Psych background. Sheesh, even the n00bs on here are trolls......

[The Milner]

No I respect that, and I'll explain my views best I can.

Firstly there is the fact that music does influence people hugely, personality wise, while on the whole games don't do this. For example, I know a lot of people who grew up listening to punk music, who are now into their ethics, or into their punk anti-authority thing (or were lol) whereas I know nobody who does the same with games. The only real personality influence there seems to be is influencing them to like games, not influencing them to act how the guys in the games do etc. I'm not saying this is the same for everyone, but it is a general rule which seperates the issues somewhat.

Secondly, music is more accesible. You can hear it at a gig, otuside a gig, get an essence even from a name on a poster, a forum or a myspace page. You don't get the same sort of involvement with games etc.

Thirdly, the subject matter itself is different. While there are games that involve violence, or perhaps even rape in small degrees, there are not games promoting specific issues (to my knowledge) and if there were, perhaps the two would be a lot more similar and there would be a similar problem. For example, you don't get games called 'Punch your wife' or 'rape the bitch'. And even if there were such mainstream games, I would imagine there are a lot of people who could quite happily play it without becoming violent towards their wives, or rapists - but you can certainly see how it would be a bad influence on a lot of people playing it.

It's such a pile of balls. I remember doing some sort of essay or something on "video nasties" years ago.

It's such a crap argument. One person copies Basketball Diaries so it's to blame. The guy who shot up that school in America would have copied something else, or just done it his own way or whatever. There has to be something going wrong in your head before you copy a movie or computer game and commit murder. Like Milner says - I've watched many a violent movie/played many a violent computer game and I haven't inflicted violence on anyone in my life, other than the odd playground scuffle. Nor have I nicked a car, or committed any sort of crime whatsoever.

If individuals are going to commit crimes, be violent or whatever, they are going to do it regardless. There's no doubt that these video games/movies etc trigger something within them, but we can't go all nanny state and ban everything because it might trigger something off in someone who's going to be triggered by something else at some point in their lives anyway.

yeah thats exactly how i feel about it to be honest, although i do see the boys point.

[Rob_86]

Humans are most susceptible to influence in childhood and it's mostly due to their family and school. Once into adolescence then peer groups do affect opinions etc... but music is not a massive contributing factor where people will uniformly follow the lyrics. If so, then having been brough up on The Doors I should be taking drugs all the time.

You have to remember that a lot of the psychological studies into computer game violence etc... weren't well thought out experiements - the participants knew it was a psychological study therefore the results were grossly affected.

I strongly disagree - music has a huge affect on teens, and younger adults especially. In everything from clothes to behavioural patterns.

And again, such is the way of the world that not everyone is influenced by everything, and to the same degree. I would imagine the beatles made a lot of their fans like yellow submarines, but not all of them! However on this issue, it is a valid point of worry as to what is influencing people's opinions.

[Teabags]

[Rob_86]

I'm sorry, but that's just bollocks. Not the most eloquent way of putting it, but that's what I think of your over-analysing of the human race.

Artistic expression is very important, yes, but I don't think I said at any point that I put freedom of speech above all else. I just want to live in a free world. You can't prevent everything bad in the world, it's just impossible. You can ban this and that, but all the violence etc will find some other way out of that person. Something will influence or affect them during their life to trigger whatever it is inside them that makes them do the terrible things they do.

What caused murderers/abusers/criminals to do these things before there were things like CD players to listen to bands like Wifebeater?

Do you seriously think that a band like Wifebeater would influence even just one person to go home and beat their wife? Seriously?

You, my friend, need help.

Firstly, your not really making any sense - humans aren't timebombs waiting to be turned violent. And violent criminals aren't born as such - why on earth would that be the case?!

And yes I do seriously think that a young maleable mind could pick up these things from a badn like this, it seems obvious on some of these posts that certain people don't have an ounce of respect for certain sexist terms - even when seriously talking to women, so why wouldn't young fans (if they had any, which people keep telling me they didn't) listening take that kind of mindset too?

[Rob_86]

Could you please provide a handy "Cut Out and Keep" list of who is allowed to say offensive things and who isn't?

So far we know that comedians can, because everyone knows they are just having a laugh, but bands can't because people take them very seriously.

I haven't really been following closely but I gather films and computer games are a no-no too, perhaps you can clarify.

If you could let me know the rules on books, theatre and Bebo pages I'll be all set. Ta.

No I didn't say that, I said I couldn't think of example of games or comedians that are the same - there might well be some though. Feel free to twist my words however you like though, the funnier your replies, i'm sure the more people will like you...

It is really strange, I'm trying not to twist people's words, or make them look like twats, in the interest of putting points across and discussing the issue fairly - and like an adult. Shame there's not a great deal of others who think the same.

[Skubbs]

I strongly disagree - music has a huge affect on teens, and younger adults especially. In everything from clothes to behavioural patterns.

And again, such is the way of the world that not everyone is influenced by everything, and to the same degree. I would imagine the beatles made a lot of their fans like yellow submarines, but not all of them! However on this issue, it is a valid point of worry as to what is influencing people's opinions.

Is their music choice not more of what subculture they want to belong to? Obviously it's open to a lot of stereotypes but certain groups do dress a certain way, listen to certain music and behave a certain way but that doesn't mean that the behaviour is dictated by the music.

Perhaps it is more due to the fact that bands or groups belong to that subculture anyway and sing about issues or in a style that relates to them. The issues were there before the music, music is just a means of expressing an opinion. Some people would agree with the opinon or viewpoint, some wouldnt but that doesnt' mean that the band is making people agree. It's up to the person to decide for themselves.

[Rob_86]

Is their music choice not more of what subculture they want to belong to? Obviously it's open to a lot of stereotypes but certain groups do dress a certain way, listen to certain music and behave a certain way but that doesn't mean that the behaviour is dictated by the music.

Perhaps it is more due to the fact that bands or groups belong to that subculture anyway and sing about issues or in a style that relates to them. The issues were there before the music, music is just a means of expressing an opinion. Some people would agree with the opinon or viewpoint, some wouldnt but that doesnt' mean that the band is making people agree. It's up to the person to decide for themselves.

It is, but music rules a lot of subcultures. And while the band don't force people, their lyrics have huge influences on their fans.

[Skubbs]

People should know right from wrong, it's not the responsiblity of bands to tell people how to take the music. Everyone has their own interpretation and it can be different from the band's intended message.

If someone takes the message of Wifebeater the wrong way and believes it's acceptable to go out and beat women then they have a serious problem, not Wifebeater.

[Bigsby]

No I didn't say that, I said I couldn't think of example of games or comedians that are the same - there might well be some though. Feel free to twist my words however you like though, the funnier your replies, i'm sure the more people will like you...

It is really strange, I'm trying not to twist people's words, or make them look like twats, in the interest of putting points across and discussing the issue fairly - and like an adult. Shame there's not a great deal of others who think the same.

No twisting required my friend.

And on the subject of how comedians get away with being ironic, well that is exactly what comedians are - people making a living of of such things. (These two froms of performance are different in a number of ways which I would imagine have some relevance here, ie the fact people into music will take a lot of the subject of music into their hearts, such is the nature of this particular artform, whereas the same isn't generally true of comedy)

[Guest Exposure @ Lemon Tree]

Firstly, your not really making any sense - humans aren't timebombs waiting to be turned violent. And violent criminals aren't born as such - why on earth would that be the case?!

And yes I do seriously think that a young maleable mind could pick up these things from a badn like this, it seems obvious on some of these posts that certain people don't have an ounce of respect for certain sexist terms - even when seriously talking to women, so why wouldn't young fans (if they had any, which people keep telling me they didn't) listening take that kind of mindset too?

You're the one not making sense.

I didn't say humans are ticking time bombs waiting to turn violent. But I do think the people out there who commit (for example) murder are probably either driven to it because of something really bad happening in their life, like, for example someone totally screwing their life up - maybe breaking up a marriage/family, destryong a business, that sort of thing. Or, they have it in them in the first place, and something triggers it - could be something in their life. Or, they are mentally ill, and there's just something wrong in their mind. These are the kinds of people who could be influenced by video games/movies/songs/whatever. But, I think it is in them already.

But, you're the one not making sense, because you're trying to argue that music like that of Wifebeater has the potential to influence a human into abusing their wife, yet humans are not ticking timebombs waiting to go off. You're just going round in circles.

I've said my piece now, and I'm off.

You sound like one of these people that likes to overanalyse everything, and look far too deep into people's mindsets and all that bollocks. People should be allowed to be people, make their own choices/mistakes/etc. Yes, we are all influenced by everything around us, but anyone who would for example hear "Where's my fucking tea" and proceed to go home and shout and swear at their wife, and possibly physically abuse her has something far wrong with them in the first place, and blaming Wifebeater would just be an excuse.

[Skubbs]

The fact that the majority understand that Wifebeater were about taking the piss out of thsoe who do beat women, then it is the minority who take it the wrong way that have the problem.

The politicians only took this so far because they aren't able to deal with other problems and need to be seen as "doing something". It's all top show!

[The Milner]

The politicians only took this so far because they aren't able to deal with other problems and need to be seen as "doing something". It's all top show!

that is exactly the point!!!!

Considering things that could be done, taking it out on some little band really stinks of them trying to get public support for doing fuck all in the bigger picture.

[cheese_dust]

It is, but music rules a lot of subcultures. And while the band don't force people, their lyrics have huge influences on their fans.

people are fans because they already agree with the lyrics you idiot. people relate to music because they RELATE TO IT

if you have anarchist opinions of course your going to end up listening to crass etc because they are talking about something you believe in and it makes you feel less alone.

i, and almost everyone here has disagreed with almost every finate point you have made. you arent wrong, but you definately arent correct, face it.

[Skubbs]

people are fans because they already agree with the lyrics you idiot. people relate to music because they RELATE TO IT

if you have anarchist opinions of course your going to end up listening to crass etc because they are talking about something you believe in and it makes you feel less alone.

i, and almost everyone here has disagreed with almost every finate point you have made. you arent wrong, but you definately arent correct, face it.

Exactly the point I was trying to make. The music doesn't influence the subculture, the subculture influences the music.

[Guest]

Can we please close this thread?

That Dave mod is always going on about how this site should be useful and relevent, it's been the same recycled points made at least for the last ten pages.

Fucks sake. It's getting tedious.

[The Milner]

people are fans because they already agree with the lyrics you idiot. people relate to music because they RELATE TO IT

if you have anarchist opinions of course your going to end up listening to crass etc because they are talking about something you believe in and it makes you feel less alone.

i, and almost everyone here has disagreed with almost every finate point you have made. you arent wrong, but you definately arent correct, face it.

to me that says that you think people would have listened to wifebeater because they could relate to them beating their wives.....