Animal Welfare

[paranoid]

It was Michael Portillo

BBC NEWS | UK | Magazine | The search for a 'humane' execution

BBC - Horizon - How to Kill a Human Being

[TheTickingTime-Bomb]

It has everything to do with the moral debate. The moral debate has no basis, if we have no real choice but to consume meat in order to maintain our health, and that itself is debatable.

Once again, it has NOTHING to do with the moral debate. If we were all going to die if we went veggie, it wouldn't prove that eating meat was moral, just that we would die if we stopped eating it.

[Le Stu]

Hey, this is my first post. I'd just like to clear some stuff up about vegan nutrition. It is a widely known fact, and a fact that all major dietetic associations, that a vegan diet is suitable for any stage in life. You are right that the only one we have to worry about is B12, but this can be supplemented, and is a better source than from animal flesh anyway because it is guaranteed. Omega-3 occurs in flax seeds and some leafy greens, although flax seeds are the best source. Fish get their omega 3 from eating sea algae, so it makes sense to get omega 3 from a plant source, not to mention the fact that our waters are so polluted that eating fish is probably as damaging to your health as it is good for your health. You assesment of protein is an outdated notion from the 1970's. Protein should be the least of anyones worries, just eat a varied diet and you will get enough. People who eat animal flesh and reproductive excretions should be more worried about getting too much protein!

Flax seeds and other plant sources do not contain long chain omega-3 fatty acids. They only contain alpha-Linolenic acid which your body must produce enzymes to convert into the EPA and DHA, common in oily fish, which is essential for brain health. Unless you have a remarkably efficient digestive system and do no drink alcohol you may not be able to get enough from the likes of flax seeds. Fortunately, supplements made from marine-sourced algae have become available in the last few years.

And I'm pretty sure you don't understand what the word 'protein' means if you think it should be the least of anyone's worries. Look it up. I'm not advocating strict food combining either, if that's what you meant, though a balance of legumes and grains in the diet is essential if a herbivorous person is to have the best chance of getting an adequate amount of all essential amino acids.

By the way, if you flush the toilet with the seat up, you're brushing your teeth with shit particles.

[TheTickingTime-Bomb]

Of course I can't grasp his argument, he has turned a thread about eating cows into a fantasy-land romp about people eating each other!

A fantasy land romp?

You really don't understand what he is saying do you?

[Soda Jerk]

So, what is the reason for your continued consumption of animals?

Tastes good. It was probably mentioned on the first page. And the second. And every page thereafter. Tastes real good.

[Le Stu]

Once again, it has NOTHING to do with the moral debate. If we were all going to die if we went veggie, it wouldn't prove that eating meat was moral, just that we would die if we stopped eating it.

I didn't say death was assured. You may just develop serious emotional problems, social behaviour disorders and an inability to think rationally due to long-term malnutrition.

Clearly, if a human needs to eat meat to be healthy then that completely undermines the moral argument. You might as well criticise people for emitting greenhouse gasses.*

*From their person, I should add.

[paranoid]

A fantasy land romp?

You really don't understand what he is saying do you?

It is entirely irrelevant. We are not talking about eating people, we are talking about eating animals that are grown like crops, the majority of whom are slaughtered humanely, to feed us. It has been done like that, albeit without the humane part, for thousands of years. Should we only harvest crops that we find growing naturally? little clumps of wheat here and there? No, that would be fucking ridiculous. Wheat is grown in large quantities to feed us, cows are bred similarly.

A few weird-beards turning veggie isn't going to stop animals dying. Stopping eating meat for "moral reasons" is a piss poor excuse, and unless it is done for medical reasons, such as my grandma can't eat red meat following surgery she had in the '80's to remove stomach cancer, then it is pish. Most of the "selective veggies" I've had the misfortune to encounter have been whiny, preachy "look at me, I'm saving animals" types. Commanly known as cunts.

[Old Gold]

I struggle with the lumping of all animals into one category. Are vegan's uncomfortable with flies splattering on their car windshield? You don't have to drive, but it's an inevitable occurrence while motoring.

[HeinzHines]

If we were all going to die if we went veggie, it wouldn't prove that eating meat was moral, just that we would die if we stopped eating it.

Surely if this was the case, it would be immoral to impose vegetarianism onto people if it led them to die.

Not that I am stating that being veggie would do such a thing, just negating your argument. There could be moral issues involved in eating meat that we haven't been able to foresee.

I think it is better to make your own decisions for your own reasons, stick by them, but look past trying to convert on morality issues.

[Bletheringvegan]

Interesting read. Thing is though, i'd wager most of the people killing animals for human consumption aren't doing it because they "enjoy doing it". They're more than likely doing it to put food on their families tables (be it vegetables or meat as they both cost money). The animals aren't being brutally tortured with blow torches they are being killed in the most humane way possible. If anyone can find an efficient and cost effective way of killing animals that is also non-suffering then that would be great and there have been substantial movements on the subject over the past 50 years.

I'd agree, it's not 100% necessary for humans to consume animal products to survive but i take issue with a statement that says we can live better without animal products as there is no quantifiable evidence to back up that claim.

We may kill animals in the most "humane" way possible on free-range farms, but this is a nich market where the flesh is more expensive. The reality is that things move far too fast in a conventional slaughter house for there to be guaranteed a "humane" death, in fact sometimes the animals are still conscious long after they shouldn't be. But regardless of this, even if we were killing them in a "humane" way (oxymoron), even if we sang them a fucking lullaby, caressed them and gave them a lollipop before we slit their throat at the end of the day death is death no matter how nice you wrap it up.

If you don't agree what we can't live without animal use then what of the millions of vegans worldwide, and indeed the many vegan athletes, should they be dead? And anyway, every major dietetic association says that we can live perfectly fine on a plant-based diet, even the American one which you know just has to be funded by the meat industry Furthermore, publications like the China Study go a long way to show that a plant-based diet is more healthy.

[paranoid]

We may kill animals in the most "humane" way possible on free-range farms, but this is a nich market where the flesh is more expensive. The reality is that things move far too fast in a conventional slaughter house for there to be guaranteed a "humane" death, in fact sometimes the animals are still conscious long after they shouldn't be. But regardless of this, even if we were killing them in a "humane" way (oxymoron), even if we sang them a fucking lullaby, caressed them and gave them a lollipop before we slit their throat at the end of the day death is death no matter how nice you wrap it up.

Can I have my death blue, with chips, onion rings and mushrooms then please?

Unless it is morally wrong to kill potatoes, onions and mushrooms also....

[Bletheringvegan]

Flax seeds and other plant sources do not contain long chain omega-3 fatty acids. They only contain alpha-Linolenic acid which your body must produce enzymes to convert into the EPA and DHA, common in oily fish, which is essential for brain health. Unless you have a remarkably efficient digestive system and do no drink alcohol you may not be able to get enough from the likes of flax seeds. Fortunately, supplements made from marine-sourced algae have become available in the last few years.

And I'm pretty sure you don't understand what the word 'protein' means if you think it should be the least of anyone's worries. Look it up. I'm not advocating strict food combining either, if that's what you meant, though a balance of legumes and grains in the diet is essential if a herbivorous person is to have the best chance of getting an adequate amount of all essential amino acids.

By the way, if you flush the toilet with the seat up, you're brushing your teeth with shit particles.

I have never heard of these terms mentioned before, but thanks for the info, will look it up! I'm no expert on nutrition, but I know that I am still alive and that there are millions of vegans who live perfectly healthy and active lives. My veganism is entirely for ethical reasons, and in any case I drink far too much beer to ever be considered healthy. I'm sure if I went to a doctor to be tested for a lack of anything there would be some stuff lacking, but thats not because I am vegan, it's because I'm too lazy to plan my diet properly. The same could be said for a student that lives entirely on rustlers and tennents!

And regarding protein, when I said the least of anyones worries I meant that the majority of people in our society get too much protein.

[Le Stu]

I have never heard of these terms mentioned before, but thanks for the info, will look it up! I'm no expert on nutrition, but I know that I am still alive and that there are millions of vegans who live perfectly healthy and active lives. My veganism is entirely for ethical reasons, and in any case I drink far too much beer to ever be considered healthy. I'm sure if I went to a doctor to be tested for a lack of anything there would be some stuff lacking, but thats not because I am vegan, it's because I'm too lazy to plan my diet properly. The same could be said for a student that lives entirely on rustlers and tennents!

And regarding protein, when I said the least of anyones worries I meant that the majority of people in our society get too much protein.

Ah yes, that's clear now I read your post again. You're probably right about that but it's very difficult to say what the optimal amount of protein is and it may vary from person to person. Certainly, if you are taking in too much you can suffer renal problems. If you don't take in any animal protein then you're up on calcium at least, as long as your intake of it is good, leafy green veg etc.

It's good to know about nutrition but applying this knowledge is more of a chore...

[Fast Caz]

Slightly off topic ..... Got any good vegan recipes ?

[Bletheringvegan]

Slightly off topic ..... Got any good vegan recipes ?

I have a few vegan cookbooks that have some pretty good recipes in them. What sorta stuff do you like?

[Bletheringvegan]

Ah yes, that's clear now I read your post again. You're probably right about that but it's very difficult to say what the optimal amount of protein is and it may vary from person to person. Certainly, if you are taking in too much you can suffer renal problems. If you don't take in any animal protein then you're up on calcium at least, as long as your intake of it is good, leafy green veg etc.

It's good to know about nutrition but applying this knowledge is more of a chore...

Yeah, agreed. I am kinda getting more interested in nutrition as I learn to cook better. But as I say, even if I did get all the nutrients I required I'm pretty sure that it wouldn't matter anyway considering the levels of blood in my alcohol system. Wait...other way round?

[Le Stu]

Yeah, agreed. I am kinda getting more interested in nutrition as I learn to cook better. But as I say, even if I did get all the nutrients I required I'm pretty sure that it wouldn't matter anyway considering the levels of blood in my alcohol system. Wait...other way round?

Beer is actually a source of protein! In fact, alcoholism can support human life for a time. Say, the length of a Batchelors degree

[paranoid]

I have a few vegan cookbooks that have some pretty good recipes in them. What sorta stuff do you like?

Got anything that would go well with a steak?

[Alkaline]

Who doesn't know about this? Suggesting that you have to be a nudist to be ethical and not simply buy ethically made (or recycled, second-hand etc) clothes makes me cringe for you, especially after your lengthy inference both to this utterly derailed topic and also to your previous "Do you smoke?" failure of a point.

Of course i'm not suggesting that you have to be a nudist to be ethical, i was using it as an extreme example (in comparison say to being vegan- which is an extreme). Do you only wear recycled, ethically made or second hand clothes? The smoking point stands. Both have much more of a negative impact on the environment than eating meat. Both have much more of a negative impact on human beings than eating meat. Both have more moral/ethical problems associated with them than eating meat. So i'm afraid, despite your attempts to suggest otherwise, they are both relevant to the topic.

Just because you don't agree doesn't mean you should be so dismissive.

[Fast Caz]

I have a few vegan cookbooks that have some pretty good recipes in them. What sorta stuff do you like?

Whilst on tour last year we were fed quite a few vegan meals all of which were nourishing and filling. Serious fucking gas to the disgust of everyone who ate it though ha.

Hmm really can't remember what it was though.

Im really into anything to be honest , intruiged to see if i any better then i do when i change my diet to vegan for a week.

I know i'll shit alot more than i already do!

Which is only a good thing

[TheTickingTime-Bomb]

Of course i'm not suggesting that you have to be a nudist to be ethical, i was using it as an extreme example (in comparison say to being vegan- which is an extreme). Do you only wear recycled, ethically made or second hand clothes? The smoking point stands. Both have much more of a negative impact on the environment than eating meat. Both have much more of a negative impact on human beings than eating meat. Both have more moral/ethical problems associated with them than eating meat. So i'm afraid, despite your attempts to suggest otherwise, they are both relevant to the topic.

Just because you don't agree doesn't mean you should be so dismissive.

If you want to make a thread about moral issues in general, then go ahead, but this one is about animal welfare.

And on this topic I share a link.

[Alkaline]

We may kill animals in the most "humane" way possible on free-range farms, but this is a nich market where the flesh is more expensive. The reality is that things move far too fast in a conventional slaughter house for there to be guaranteed a "humane" death, in fact sometimes the animals are still conscious long after they shouldn't be. But regardless of this, even if we were killing them in a "humane" way (oxymoron), even if we sang them a fucking lullaby, caressed them and gave them a lollipop before we slit their throat at the end of the day death is death no matter how nice you wrap it up.

If you don't agree what we can't live without animal use then what of the millions of vegans worldwide, and indeed the many vegan athletes, should they be dead? And anyway, every major dietetic association says that we can live perfectly fine on a plant-based diet, even the American one which you know just has to be funded by the meat industry Furthermore, publications like the China Study go a long way to show that a plant-based diet is more healthy.

I'm not disputing that fact but it is a world of difference between that and consciously torturing an animal. Have you ever been in a slaughterhouse?

Where did i say i don't agree that we can't live without eating animals? I simply said that i don't agree that it is better for the human body to be vegan/vegetarian than carnivorous. I suggest you might read my post a bit better rather than jumping down my throat and putting words in my mouth. It's obvious that both are achievable and without any detrimental effects (something that you'll see when you re-read my post that i didn't disagree with that). Both dietary choices have their merits and you'll've noticed that i haven't said there is anything wrong with being vegetarian or vegan at all, i just like meat and i won't be made to feel guilty for eating it.

[Alkaline]

If you want to make a thread about moral issues in general, then go ahead, but this one is about animal welfare.

And on this topic I share a link.

I'm just saying that they are more relevant to us as a species as they affect us directly whereas eating meat or not doesn't.

There is nothing wrong with vegetarianism/veganism or being carnivorous, both are valid but neither have a major bearing on the well being of humans. Animal Welfare is important, as i've said previously, but in the grand scheme of nature we're a lot more "humane" with the killing of animals than animals are with the killing of each other and by and large most animals are treated well in the run up to their slaughter (yes, death is death and no-one can shy away from that but it's going to happen regardless). People who don't abide by fair practice in respect to the well being of their animals should be punished for it.

[Shaki]

I think it is better to make your own decisions for your own reasons, stick by them, but look past trying to convert on morality issues.

What he said.

Perhaps this thread will be unwittingly dug up but some n00b in the year 2780 and everyone will be all like "OMG I cnt blv ppl usd 2 eat anmls" and some cow will say "WTF i cnt blv u usd 2 eat us!" and someone else will make an offensive remark to the cow and be banned for one too many speciesist remarks. The abolition of meat eating will then be used in a debate on the morality of stepping on grass as a step in the direction of "the right way to live".....

Perhaps. I'm happy with my 21st century morality.

In a bizarre twist I've realised I've nothing to have for tea apart from salad and cheese.

[Bletheringvegan]

I'm not disputing that fact but it is a world of difference between that and consciously torturing an animal. Have you ever been in a slaughterhouse?

Where did i say i don't agree that we can't live without eating animals? I simply said that i don't agree that it is better for the human body to be vegan/vegetarian than carnivorous. I suggest you might read my post a bit better rather than jumping down my throat and putting words in my mouth. It's obvious that both are achievable and without any detrimental effects (something that you'll see when you re-read my post that i didn't disagree with that). Both dietary choices have their merits and you'll've noticed that i haven't said there is anything wrong with being vegetarian or vegan at all, i just like meat and i won't be made to feel guilty for eating it.

Woaaah, calm down, I didn't jump down your throat. I obviously did misread your post an I am sorry. No I have never been to a slaughterhouse, but I would argue there isn't a huge difference between hiring someone to kill an animal or killing one yourself. Yes you can live on an omnivourous diet, but you don't need to kill animals, so why do it? It just seems completely illogical to me.

You seem awfully concerned about being made to feel guilty about eating animals, why is this?