Bletheringvegan

I'm playing through this again as the evilist bastard you can be. Great stress relief.

This is an unfair hypoethetical. Moral intuition would tell me to tend to the human first and I don't see how this would make me a speciesist. I am concerned with the "unecessary" suffering of animals, but if a situation like this actually did occur of course I would tend to the human first. Question for you: What if the human was the countries worst peodophile and the dog was a member of your family? See, unfair hypothetical.

Racism and sexism are based on prejudice and hate because of what? Because of a difference in skin colour/nationality or a difference in gender. I fail to see how this 'othering' is different than the 'othering' based on species. And for the record it is not my goal to belittle the stupidity of racism and sexism. My veganism stems from a general rejection of all oppressions and hierarchies, so I put as much weight on opposing racism, sexism and homophonia as I do on speciesism.

Oh and also someone said that we should sort out humanity before we worry about animals. Why can't we do both? Most animal rights activists I know are also active in human related causes too.

Wow, this has moved on at least 10 pages since I've last been able to post. The question of variety is absurd, there's only a few types of flesh and only a few things you can do with reproductive excretions, yet there is a plethora of different vegetables, fruits, nuts, grains and whatever else we vegans eat. I think someone said that you can't compare racism, sexism and homophobia to speciesism, I'd disagree with this. Although the contexts are different, the process of 'othering' is essentially the same. I just had a quick skim through the last 10 pages so apologies if any of this has already been covered.

+2 ?(o_O

Although I find historical diets very interesting, I don't see it as a logical basis for our current diets. The reason they ate animal flesh was completely different from the reasons we do. Besides there are a lot of traditions in history that we shouldn't be proud of and definetely shouldn't replicate today... I'm not sure about traditional vegan cultures apart from the ones you have mentioned, might actually give that a bit of research, would be interesting to find out!

I have stated so many times in this thread that you can live perfectly fine on a plant-based diet, which is backed up by all major dietetic associations, so any argument you have regarding meat and its supposed nutritional qualities doesn't really hold. If you are concerned about a consistently growing population then we should STOP eating meat because a high percentage of the land we could grow plant based crops on for feeding people is used for grazing or growing plants for animal feed. If you were stupid enough to be near a tiger and harass it enough for it to eat you then I might laugh, but I am no stinky fucking hippy.

If it is something that bothers you that much why are you hiding from it? Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

So let me get this straight. Because some historical community ate animals then you have to as well? They would have hunted out of necessity. That is the issue here, we don't need to kill 53 billion+ animals a year for our plates, there is no necessity. If you so enamored with historical societies and their animal consuming habits, then why do you eat animal products that are killed, skinned, cut up and put into containers for you? And why should the question not be "should humans eat meat at all?". It doesn't matter to me whether the slaughter of animals is done by the grace of some some mystical sky being or not, it's still killing a sentient being that doesn't need to be killed. Also, yeah, where has the thread starter gone? lol

Yeah, that's really sad. Just to be clear I don't 'hate' anyone for eating animals etc, I once did just that before I actually stopped to think about the repercussions my diet was having on other sentient beings and the world as a whole. The sad fact is that although you or I might be capable of looking after a companion animal, a lot of people aren't. Just look at the thousands and thousands of animals that are in shelters and then euthanised, because they haven't been claimed/adopted, to make space for even more unwanted "pets".

Thank you. I was just going to point out that not once have I insulted anyone. Just because he doesn't even want to entertain the idea that animals might just feel pain and should be extended the right not to be regarded as human property, doesn't mean the rest of us can't have a good conversation/debate about it!

Oh true, wrong choice of words on my part. But still the point stands, millions of people didn't see anything wrong with slavery, yet that didn't mean they were right.

No, I'm not. I plan to post on other forums as well, bletheringvegan is just a username I use because I rant a lot and I'm a vegan. I dislike trolls more than most people, but I do like your profile picture. Do you visit B3ta.com by any chance?

Who me? Why is that?

Just because a million people think something is right doesn't make it so. Millions of people didn't see human slavery as illogical Did that make it morally defensible?

As I said I remain unconvinced as to feeding a cat a vegan diet especially in male cats, but if a cat can live on a healthy plant-based diet that you provide then why not? Of course some can still hunt, although the cat that I live with is a lazy bastard so I'd be surprised if he came home with a mouse! And vegans don't keep animals as "pets", part of veganism is an opposition to breeding animals for "pets", we are opposed to the property status of animals. But since we have bred these animals into existence it is our responsibility to look after them. I for one will definetely be rescuing as many animals as I can from a local shelter when I get my own place (I currently live with my brother and our flat is tiny). Pets | Animal Rights: The Abolitionist Approach - here is Prof. Gary Francione discussing the issue of "pets" as seen from an abolitionist animal rights perspective.

Key word : domesticated.

This is a bit complicated, domestic animals are only on this earth as they are now because we bred them to be here. In essence we have bred almost all survival instinct out of them and so if we let them into the wild they wouldnt last long. So they depend on us for everything, they are like children that never grow up. There is nothing natural about a domestic cat or dog. But you have a point, I'm not convinced, and a lot of other vegans aren't, that feeding a cat, especially males as they can develop urinary problems without meat, a vegan diet is a responsible thing. But saying that, if a cat can live healthily on a vegan diet and you are his or her sole provider then it's fine in my opinion. Dogs are omnivores so they can easily live healthily on a vegan diet.

haha yeah, at least 3 times a day!

Woaaah, calm down, I didn't jump down your throat. I obviously did misread your post an I am sorry. No I have never been to a slaughterhouse, but I would argue there isn't a huge difference between hiring someone to kill an animal or killing one yourself. Yes you can live on an omnivourous diet, but you don't need to kill animals, so why do it? It just seems completely illogical to me. You seem awfully concerned about being made to feel guilty about eating animals, why is this?

Yeah, agreed. I am kinda getting more interested in nutrition as I learn to cook better. But as I say, even if I did get all the nutrients I required I'm pretty sure that it wouldn't matter anyway considering the levels of blood in my alcohol system. Wait...other way round?

I have a few vegan cookbooks that have some pretty good recipes in them. What sorta stuff do you like?

I have never heard of these terms mentioned before, but thanks for the info, will look it up! I'm no expert on nutrition, but I know that I am still alive and that there are millions of vegans who live perfectly healthy and active lives. My veganism is entirely for ethical reasons, and in any case I drink far too much beer to ever be considered healthy. I'm sure if I went to a doctor to be tested for a lack of anything there would be some stuff lacking, but thats not because I am vegan, it's because I'm too lazy to plan my diet properly. The same could be said for a student that lives entirely on rustlers and tennents! And regarding protein, when I said the least of anyones worries I meant that the majority of people in our society get too much protein.

We may kill animals in the most "humane" way possible on free-range farms, but this is a nich market where the flesh is more expensive. The reality is that things move far too fast in a conventional slaughter house for there to be guaranteed a "humane" death, in fact sometimes the animals are still conscious long after they shouldn't be. But regardless of this, even if we were killing them in a "humane" way (oxymoron), even if we sang them a fucking lullaby, caressed them and gave them a lollipop before we slit their throat at the end of the day death is death no matter how nice you wrap it up. If you don't agree what we can't live without animal use then what of the millions of vegans worldwide, and indeed the many vegan athletes, should they be dead? And anyway, every major dietetic association says that we can live perfectly fine on a plant-based diet, even the American one which you know just has to be funded by the meat industry Furthermore, publications like the China Study go a long way to show that a plant-based diet is more healthy.