Wind-up?

[Guest Exposure @ Lemon Tree]

So if we all speak rubbish like this filled with weird existentialist accusations, is it a certainty that the thread won't be closed?!

I just suspect that you are the same person posting under different names. That is all. "Weird existentialism" indeed.

[stuartmaxwell]

i think you lot are on your high horse about bugger all

why on earth do you care about this so much??

[unbroken]

"because I think it's worth debating over, I may or may not be saying that I believed Wifebeater to be a Nazi band"

[The Kernel Loaf]

If you typed 'TL : DR' into Google, this thread should be the first result.

[Rob_86]

i think you lot are on your high horse about bugger all

why on earth do you care about this so much??

I don't get why it is less important/more condemnable for someone to be discussing an issue of music such as this than say how it sounds?

I wouldn't say anyone in this thread has been on their high horse, it's not like anyone has been overly upset or offended - just discussing the ethical implications of certain things. In the process certain folk have gotten pretty angry and defensive about it (as happens in all issues of this nature), but not many involved in the actual discussion have.

[Rob_86]

I just suspect that you are the same person posting under different names. That is all. "Weird existentialism" indeed.

Oh right, no I spend quite enough time in this thread without needing a second account as it happens! Perhaps I could respond in the same accusative type by suggesting you are a proponent of flashing at a local well-known gig venue?

[Guest Exposure @ Lemon Tree]

Oh right, no I spend quite enough time in this thread without needing a second account as it happens! Perhaps I could respond in the same accusative type by suggesting you are a proponent of flashing at a local well-known gig venue?

Absolutely hilarious.

[Rob_86]

Absolutely hilarious.

I thought so

[Bin Laden's Daughter]

The analogy was not used to prove any of those things - and as with all analogies that work, it was an example which has similarities in the relevant parts. 'Nazi' and 'wife-beating' bands of course have many differences, however the analogy works on one level at the least (the one it was meant to show) in that they are both bands putting across a certain anti-mainstream, violence inciting idea. If something was the same on all levels, it would not be an analogy.

Of course you think it's a good analogy- you made it and you know best...

A better analogy would be Gangsta rap- which is pretty uncluttered with ideology, rife with mysogeny and senseless violence. And it would have to be a gansta rapper who was parodying gansta rap, but in a way you didn't get. By your definition all gansta rappers are just the same as Nazi's, even the comedy ones. Which is laughable.

And with all due respect, 'guilt by association' is fair enough when the analogy pointed to a similarity of such.

The 'Nazi' analogy is just baseless, reactionary tripe. If you believe that it's ok to liken a group of people to Nazi's (who believe in National Socialism) just because they sing about wifebeating, then you obviously have little understanding of what a Nazi is. Where did you study politics? Nursery school?

It is most certainly not 'logical' to assume that if someone smacks their spouse around, they also believe in the superiority of the 'Aryan' race, the mass extermination of Jews, Slavs, Poles, Russians, Homosexuals, cripples and people born with all manner of physical/ mental disabilities.

What about a Marxist who goes through a bout of depression, takes to drink, then has a few episodes of taking it out on the missus. Does that Marxist suddenly become a Nazi?

When your argument is based on stacked up misconceptions and uninformed knee-jerk reactions it doesn't make it 'logical' (except, of course, to you). You also forget that your logic is not necessarily the same as everyone elses. We all have different brains, personalities and ways of perceiving. The old 'logic' chestnut is a crock of shit. Just ask any teacher/ lecturer.

I don't know why you assume I am claiming all these things, when none of them were mentioned

Now who's being defensive? READ MY FUCKING POST PROPERLY OR IGNORE IT ENTIRELY. What I actually typed was 'IN EFFECT' that is what you're claiming- not that you actually claimed it. Your refusal to acknowledge that you are drawing dangerous and irresponsible comparisons makes me think that what you are doing is quite deliberate.

I would like to draw an analogy here- between jockeys and Waffen SS Stormtroopers- after all, they both wear hats!

No offense, but I think we seem to be having two seperate arguments. I'm debating a moral issue of the effects of this sort of band on the ethical issue they appear to be taking side swipes at, whereas you seem to be defending your friends - to which I have no intention of personally attacking, and am well aware might be perfectly nice guys.

And, last time I looked, my posts have remained 'on-topic' since this thread started- this thread was about Wifebeater the band. If you want to talk about something else then start a new thread. Don't slyly attempt to shut people up by claiming they are off topic.

If you have no intention of personally attacking these guys, then why are you likening them to Nazi's?

And you're not debating anything, mate. You're just telling us 'The World According to Rob', putting words into peoples mouths and getting defensive when you're on the back foot.

[Guest Exposure @ Lemon Tree]

Of course you think it's a good analogy- you made it and you know best...

A better analogy would be Gangsta rap- which is pretty uncluttered with ideology, rife with mysogeny and senseless violence. And it would have to be a gansta rapper who was parodying gansta rap, but in a way you didn't get. By your definition all gansta rappers are just the same as Nazi's, even the comedy ones. Which is laughable.

The 'Nazi' analogy is just baseless, reactionary tripe. If you believe that it's ok to liken a group of people to Nazi's (who believe in National Socialism) just because they sing about wifebeating, then you obviously have little understanding of what a Nazi is. Where did you study politics? Nursery school?

It is most certainly not 'logical' to assume that if someone smacks their spouse around, they also believe in the superiority of the 'Aryan' race, the mass extermination of Jews, Slavs, Poles, Russians, Homosexuals, cripples and people born with all manner of physical/ mental disabilities.

What about a Marxist who goes through a bout of depression, takes to drink, then has a few episodes of taking it out on the missus. Does that Marxist suddenly become a Nazi?

When your argument is based on stacked up misconceptions and uninformed knee-jerk reactions it doesn't make it 'logical' (except, of course, to you). You also forget that your logic is not necessarily the same as everyone elses. We all have different brains, personalities and ways of perceiving. The old 'logic' chestnut is a crock of shit. Just ask any teacher/ lecturer.

Now who's being defensive? READ MY FUCKING POST PROPERLY OR IGNORE IT ENTIRELY. What I actually typed was 'IN EFFECT' that is what you're claiming- not that you actually claimed it. Your refusal to acknowledge that you are drawing dangerous and irresponsible comparisons makes me think that what you are doing is quite deliberate.

I would like to draw an analogy here- between jockeys and Waffen SS Stormtroopers- after all, they both wear hats!

And, last time I looked, my posts have remained 'on-topic' since this thread started- this thread was about Wifebeater the band. If you want to talk about something else then start a new thread. Don't slyly attempt to shut people up by claiming they are off topic.

If you have no intention of personally attacking these guys, then why are you likening them to Nazi's?

And you're not debating anything, mate. You're just telling us 'The World According to Rob', putting words into peoples mouths and getting defensive when you're on the back foot.

I'd like to give you more rep for that, but I already did about 3 posts ago and it won't let me yet.

[Guest treader.]

everybody stop talking. now.

[Frosty Jack]

The 'Nazi' analogy is just baseless, reactionary tripe. If you believe that it's ok to liken a group of people to Nazi's (who believe in National Socialism) just because they sing about wifebeating, then you obviously have little understanding of what a Nazi is. Where did you study politics? Nursery school?

It is most certainly not 'logical' to assume that if someone smacks their spouse around, they also believe in the superiority of the 'Aryan' race, the mass extermination of Jews, Slavs, Poles, Russians, Homosexuals, cripples and people born with all manner of physical/ mental disabilities.

What about a Marxist who goes through a bout of depression, takes to drink, then has a few episodes of taking it out on the missus. Does that Marxist suddenly become a Nazi?

I really don't want to get into this debate tbh, but I have to say you're really missing the point here. He is not saying that he thinks Wifebeater are a Nazi band. In fact he has said several times that he doesn't think that.You and Exposure both seem to have latched on to the N word so much that you can't actually see his point.

The way I see it is he is trying to compare them to any band with a radical and unacceptable (to most) agenda, which could be anything. But by far the most common example of this would be bands with far right views, so he used that as an analogy. Analogy, not accusation.

[Guest idol_wild]

I have heard this point external to this thread too, and find it one of the more worrying aspects of this issue that has quite often been looked over.

I found it worrying too - the fact that a registered charity would refuse a donation.

I had no idea they were in a position to be so selective.

[The Milner]

I found it worrying too - the fact that a registered charity would refuse a donation.

I had no idea they were in a position to be so selective.

I could understand why they wouldnt want to take a donation from them, unless they personally knew the people in the band and knew who they were as people.

[Hog]

I really don't want to get into this debate tbh, but I have to say you're really missing the point here. He is not saying that he thinks Wifebeater are a Nazi band. In fact he has said several times that he doesn't think that.You and Exposure both seem to have latched on to the N word so much that you can't actually see his point.

The way I see it is he is trying to compare them to any band with a radical and unacceptable (to most) agenda, which could be anything. But by far the most common example of this would be bands with far right views, so he used that as an analogy. Analogy, not accusation.

However,

A Nazi band- Tends to have Nazi beliefs and promotes the Nazi ethos to others.

Wifebeater- A satirical band who are not promoting any beliefs.

Indeed it may be a band name that stirs controversy. However, there is nothing controversial about Wifebeater (as a band). I'm sure most people with half a brain realises this. The irony is when MP's go off on one without actually hearing the facts.

[Bin Laden's Daughter]

I really don't want to get into this debate tbh, but I have to say you're really missing the point here. He is not saying that he thinks Wifebeater are a Nazi band. In fact he has said several times that he doesn't think that.You and Exposure both seem to have latched on to the N word so much that you can't actually see his point.

The way I see it is he is trying to compare them to any band with a radical and unacceptable (to most) agenda, which could be anything. But by far the most common example of this would be bands with far right views, so he used that as an analogy. Analogy, not accusation.

I'm not missing his point- I'd have to be a real bananna to do that, as he's posted it ad nauseum. What I'm trying to point out is that by drawing this analogy in particular, there is a risk that other knee-jerk, reactionary, foil-hat mentallists could attack members of the band for being Nazi's simply because Rob refuses to acknowledge that his Nazi analogy is, at best, not very good and at worst- totally retarded. I repeat: Nazism is a defined ideology, wifebeating is a social problem. Liken it to Gansta Rap- it's a far better analogy as it has more than just one similarity.

If music/ bands causing social problems are to be looked on as no different from Nazis, then Anarcho-punk bands have been preaching law-breaking since the very start, therefore they are causing social problems by encouraging impressionable youngsters to break the law.

And that's not all- what about the glorification of alcohol and drug abuse which is ingrained in music. Are Oasis like Nazi's because they sang 'Cigarettes and Alcohol'. Or Conflict comparable to Nazi's because of their often violent message? I don't think so.

I haven't said it's not an analogy, I said it was a bad analogy- two different things. I tried to send up his analogy humorously with my jockeys-Stormtroopers comment (because I don't want to turn this into a bitch fest). That's also an analogy, but a blatantly shit one. Much like Robs. As much of his argument is based on this weird assumption (and he on keeps making it) I think it is prudent to point out that it being a 'good' analogy is not a fact- merely his opinion.

If he really isn't trying to attack the (x)band personally, then he won't mind using an entirely more accurate analogy- such as Gansta Rap.

[Monster Zero]

If this thread had a point it's now well and truly blunt....

[Busted Princess]

Haha defensive much?!

Touch, my militant little hedgemonkey.

What makes me 'defensive' when I think about you and your priggish coterie:

Is my perception that German National Socialism has become the prism through which you (plural) evaluate the words, actions and, fuck me, even the songs of other people.

Is my deduction that you (plural) have so much of your ego vested in being 'outside' society that to cooperate in any way, shape or form to remodel said society to better fit the views you nominally espouse would be totally counterintuitive to you, not least because it would entail your facing any kind of reality check, hence your snidey, nitpickey, minimod attitudes.

Is in the way you (plural) depict yourselves as an oppressed minority, whilst acting like an insular, navel-gazing elite.

Is about the corruption of 'punk' in less than a decade from a creative free-for-all to a bunch of bourgeouis hippies, all in black, singing another bloody song about cruise missiles, and it's about you (plural) harking back to that as a golden age of positivism and constructivism.

So, yes, I am indeed 'on the defensive',

if by 'on' you mean 'piss',

and if by 'the' you mean 'up a',

and if by 'defensive' you mean 'rope, you wankstain'.

Peace

[Scootray]

Wankstain is a funny insult I find. Aren't we all a form of wankstain?

[Busted Princess]

Wankstain is a funny insult I find. Aren't we all a form of wankstain?

Good call. Not to be sexist, though, is there an XX chromosome equivalent?

[Alkaline]

Good call. Not to be sexist, though, is there an XX chromosome equivalent?

Snail Trail?

[qzdiablo]

i've heard "map of africa" bandied around before

[Rob_86]

I'm not missing his point- I'd have to be a real bananna to do that, as he's posted it ad nauseum. What I'm trying to point out is that by drawing this analogy in particular, there is a risk that other knee-jerk, reactionary, foil-hat mentallists could attack members of the band for being Nazi's simply because Rob refuses to acknowledge that his Nazi analogy is, at best, not very good and at worst- totally retarded. I repeat: Nazism is a defined ideology, wifebeating is a social problem. Liken it to Gansta Rap- it's a far better analogy as it has more than just one similarity.

If music/ bands causing social problems are to be looked on as no different from Nazis, then Anarcho-punk bands have been preaching law-breaking since the very start, therefore they are causing social problems by encouraging impressionable youngsters to break the law.

And that's not all- what about the glorification of alcohol and drug abuse which is ingrained in music. Are Oasis like Nazi's because they sang 'Cigarettes and Alcohol'. Or Conflict comparable to Nazi's because of their often violent message? I don't think so.

I haven't said it's not an analogy, I said it was a bad analogy- two different things. I tried to send up his analogy humorously with my jockeys-Stormtroopers comment (because I don't want to turn this into a bitch fest). That's also an analogy, but a blatantly shit one. Much like Robs. As much of his argument is based on this weird assumption (and he on keeps making it) I think it is prudent to point out that it being a 'good' analogy is not a fact- merely his opinion.

If he really isn't trying to attack the (x)band personally, then he won't mind using an entirely more accurate analogy- such as Gansta Rap.

Your argument, more clearly put, is that you don't like analogies/don't see how they work. As gangster rap is a poor example compared to nazi bands! Granted, perhaps gangster rap does have a lot to answer for, but makes little sense to bring it in as an analogy in this situation.

I'll make the case one more time, please read it rather than attacking it based on the fact that your mates were in the band. If a group attempts to ironically create a band promoting domestic abuse, but fails in the eyes of the masses so as it is perceived they are a band promoting domestic abuse, then they face the same moral problems as bands of other types who genuinely are promoting domestic abuse. Given there are few of these around (and none I am aware of) then it makes sense to use an analogy of a band which promotes other violence inciting ideas - ie, those who promote violence not based on gender situations in the home, but perhaps race situations (something which 'Nazi' bands do).

Your point if I understand it correctly is that I should be careful so as not to tie this band under this group of nazi bands? Well to what end? Is it not better to make points, using analogies to make things clearer, so as to see the moral issue itself clearer, than to avoid making a now defunct band into sounding ' a little bit like a nazi band' or whatever? Especially when it has been made clear that it is an analogy, many times, and what the analogy is as well. Analogies have always been used in moral issues, so as to compare what is going on with values we hold, and so as to make the issue clearer. If it happens that this one makes you angry, perhaps it is because the likeness it outlines is not one you're happy with? I can not see how the analogy itself is flawed, and neither has a point as to why been bought up (except that it is unfair to compare any band to a nazi band - regardless of the analogy, which is strange given that racial and sexist values are indeed very similar in their nature and hence are a useful comparison).

And this 'attack' hasn't been at all personal in intention, or from what I can see in form. I apologise to you or the guys in the band if it is thought otherwise, but I think from the way I have written you can see it is clear no personal insults/disrespect has been put across in these arguments.

[Rob_86]

However,

A Nazi band- Tends to have Nazi beliefs and promotes the Nazi ethos to others.

Wifebeater- A satirical band who are not promoting any beliefs.

Indeed it may be a band name that stirs controversy. However, there is nothing controversial about Wifebeater (as a band). I'm sure most people with half a brain realises this. The irony is when MP's go off on one without actually hearing the facts.

The analogy was made upon public perceptions, not intentions. So it is still a pretty good comparison - a band who intend to promote violent, irrational behaviour, and a band who don't intend to but mistakenly do due to attempting offense to certain sectors of their own community ( or whatever the purpose was, I have no idea).

[Rob_86]

Touch, my militant little hedgemonkey.

What makes me 'defensive' when I think about you and your priggish coterie:

Is my perception that German National Socialism has become the prism through which you (plural) evaluate the words, actions and, fuck me, even the songs of other people.

Is my deduction that you (plural) have so much of your ego vested in being 'outside' society that to cooperate in any way, shape or form to remodel said society to better fit the views you nominally espouse would be totally counterintuitive to you, not least because it would entail your facing any kind of reality check, hence your snidey, nitpickey, minimod attitudes.

Is in the way you (plural) depict yourselves as an oppressed minority, whilst acting like an insular, navel-gazing elite.

Is about the corruption of 'punk' in less than a decade from a creative free-for-all to a bunch of bourgeouis hippies, all in black, singing another bloody song about cruise missiles, and it's about you (plural) harking back to that as a golden age of positivism and constructivism.

So, yes, I am indeed 'on the defensive',

if by 'on' you mean 'piss',

and if by 'the' you mean 'up a',

and if by 'defensive' you mean 'rope, you wankstain'.

Peace

Oh wow, what an intellectual. An excellent addition to the debate, anything else to add? Just one thing - what exactly are these amazing values of yours that I am offending so? Or perhaps you could just make up some clever sounding new insults instead of replying to the question? Personally I think they make you sound really cool.