Bin Laden's Daughter

Not sure if this is the right place to post this... A new message board has just started up in an attempt to create a national forum for the Scottish punk/ hardcore scene which seems to happen in small knots around the country. It's not too busy yet as it's early days yet- but a couple of bands have signed up with one even linking some free downloads. Obviously, it needs more members- but if it gets used, it will become useful. Albacore Message Board

You'd better, or we'll set King Arthur on ye!

Hubl is still around, but the forum is deader than dead. If your speakers are switched on you can hear the whistling wind and tumbleweed.

In case anyone was interested in this- Excuses now have a Glasgow slot on Friday 15th. They are still available for Sunday 17th if anyone needs them. As they'll be in Elgin, it's only a wee bit for them to travel at short notice. They leave Ireland on Thursday morning, so after that any contact would be best done through me as they won't be near a computer and I have their contact details. Thanks, Aladdin Sain, BLD

Irish punks from Sligo- Excuses had a four day tour planned and two gigs have collapsed since booking the ferry. They're playing at Edinburgh on Thursday 14th May and Elgin 16th May. If anyone has a band drop out or could squeeze one onto a bill for either Friday 15th or Sunday 17th May they would be absolutely delighted. They'd rather be over and playing than over and not playing, they'd even be happy to play garages and living rooms if that's all they can get to make up for the lost gigs! They're a great punk band and deserve to be heard. Can anyone help? Thanks

That was our first and only booked gig for the year as well, tae. Fuckin' cockweasels.

Well, it's the kind of parochial pish I'd expect fae Elgin, but it's Aberdeen, ferfucksakes!

You'd think this could have been decided 2 months ago... Can the punk bands still play? Fuck those Metal bastards!!! ;D

Och! Cocks!

I'm not missing his point- I'd have to be a real bananna to do that, as he's posted it ad nauseum. What I'm trying to point out is that by drawing this analogy in particular, there is a risk that other knee-jerk, reactionary, foil-hat mentallists could attack members of the band for being Nazi's simply because Rob refuses to acknowledge that his Nazi analogy is, at best, not very good and at worst- totally retarded. I repeat: Nazism is a defined ideology, wifebeating is a social problem. Liken it to Gansta Rap- it's a far better analogy as it has more than just one similarity. If music/ bands causing social problems are to be looked on as no different from Nazis, then Anarcho-punk bands have been preaching law-breaking since the very start, therefore they are causing social problems by encouraging impressionable youngsters to break the law. And that's not all- what about the glorification of alcohol and drug abuse which is ingrained in music. Are Oasis like Nazi's because they sang 'Cigarettes and Alcohol'. Or Conflict comparable to Nazi's because of their often violent message? I don't think so. I haven't said it's not an analogy, I said it was a bad analogy- two different things. I tried to send up his analogy humorously with my jockeys-Stormtroopers comment (because I don't want to turn this into a bitch fest). That's also an analogy, but a blatantly shit one. Much like Robs. As much of his argument is based on this weird assumption (and he on keeps making it) I think it is prudent to point out that it being a 'good' analogy is not a fact- merely his opinion. If he really isn't trying to attack the (x)band personally, then he won't mind using an entirely more accurate analogy- such as Gansta Rap.

Of course you think it's a good analogy- you made it and you know best... A better analogy would be Gangsta rap- which is pretty uncluttered with ideology, rife with mysogeny and senseless violence. And it would have to be a gansta rapper who was parodying gansta rap, but in a way you didn't get. By your definition all gansta rappers are just the same as Nazi's, even the comedy ones. Which is laughable. The 'Nazi' analogy is just baseless, reactionary tripe. If you believe that it's ok to liken a group of people to Nazi's (who believe in National Socialism) just because they sing about wifebeating, then you obviously have little understanding of what a Nazi is. Where did you study politics? Nursery school? It is most certainly not 'logical' to assume that if someone smacks their spouse around, they also believe in the superiority of the 'Aryan' race, the mass extermination of Jews, Slavs, Poles, Russians, Homosexuals, cripples and people born with all manner of physical/ mental disabilities. What about a Marxist who goes through a bout of depression, takes to drink, then has a few episodes of taking it out on the missus. Does that Marxist suddenly become a Nazi? When your argument is based on stacked up misconceptions and uninformed knee-jerk reactions it doesn't make it 'logical' (except, of course, to you). You also forget that your logic is not necessarily the same as everyone elses. We all have different brains, personalities and ways of perceiving. The old 'logic' chestnut is a crock of shit. Just ask any teacher/ lecturer. Now who's being defensive? READ MY FUCKING POST PROPERLY OR IGNORE IT ENTIRELY. What I actually typed was 'IN EFFECT' that is what you're claiming- not that you actually claimed it. Your refusal to acknowledge that you are drawing dangerous and irresponsible comparisons makes me think that what you are doing is quite deliberate. I would like to draw an analogy here- between jockeys and Waffen SS Stormtroopers- after all, they both wear hats! And, last time I looked, my posts have remained 'on-topic' since this thread started- this thread was about Wifebeater the band. If you want to talk about something else then start a new thread. Don't slyly attempt to shut people up by claiming they are off topic. If you have no intention of personally attacking these guys, then why are you likening them to Nazi's? And you're not debating anything, mate. You're just telling us 'The World According to Rob', putting words into peoples mouths and getting defensive when you're on the back foot.

Saying something is 'generally' the case is not saying it is hard and fast- it means 'mostly, but not always'. Apart from anything else, Nazism is a definable ideology whereas wife-beating is a social problem- not a belief, this makes it a very bad analogy. By drawing a parallel with Nazi bands you are, in effect, tarring Wifebeater with the same brush. Guilt by association. If this is not what you intended, then use a different analogy and live by your own maxim of being careful of how you express yourself because of a perceived negative impact it may or may not have. The point I was making about the video was that it was not made to glorify domestic violence, as you suggested. It was designed to sicken and disgust you. Which it obviously did. This was also the intention of 'Nil by Mouth' which has achieved much acclaim. I'm sure Ray Winston and Cathy Burke were never accused of 'promoting domestic violence' nor has the film been censored. I would not accuse a complete stranger of lying without due cause or proof. I was suggesting that you had misread the videos intention- which was as a hard hitting image designed to appaul or shock the viewer. The point that everyone else is trying to make is that, given your interest in this subject- had you taken the time to go and see the band and talk to it's members, then perhaps you would have understood their intentions. Rather than putting the boot in before you are fully informed. You said you couldn't comment on the Ross/ Brand affair because you didn't know enough about it, but yet you comment on Wifebeater when you don't know a lot about them either. Selective.

Where about have you talked about 'Police Truck' ? There is no apparent irony in the song, no more so than 'She walked into a Door', or the Crass lyrics? In fact you dismissed my rather long post in a couple o sentences, completely refusing to acknowledge several points I made- such as the hypothetical reasons why someone might choose to sing about this stuff. You also ignored the fact that I called you on likening a band to Nazi's when they have clearly stated this is not the case, and you keep doing it. I put it to you that your controlling ideology is, in fact, far closer to right wing politics than anything said by anyone else, as already called by somebody else. You also ignored the point I made that Wifebeater did not perform to impressionable young audiences very much- mostly in over-18 venues. The point you were trying to make was that they could give the wrong message to young fans... You ARE stating your opinion, but counting it as fact. I see little or no back up for your argument other than- 'because I say so and I know these things' type statements. No, no, no, no. Wrong- very wrong. Nazi bands are generally quite up front about their sick political stance. Wifebeater were plainly ironic to anyone who took the time to find out. Our band has Antifa/ Class War/ political content displayed on our myspaz and in the lyrics etc. Why would Wifebeater take anything to do with us if they were right wing, mysoginistic morons? Why would we take anything to do with them? Don't you think that we had suspicion about them at first- but quickly realised what the score was? Hell, I even saw Jake reading a book about Lenin (don't deny it ye bolshevik cunt! ;D). You could have taken in one of their gigs and SPOKE TO THE PEOPLE INVOLVED. We did. But you didn't, so your arguments are based on conjecture- that is why they are not totally valid, nae because ye cannae spell! Horseshit. Domestic violence can run a huge gamut of causation. The old firm game at the weekend is the latest example. Also things like stress/ depression/ alcoholism and drug abuse are far more influential on domestic violence than any band will ever be. Well disguised sideswipes about a bands music being shit and them having no fans are far more low-brow than irony. That is purely subjective. If you're in a band, there will doubtless be untold thousands who think you're shite an' aw! Same for us- doubtless there will be many, many people who just think we're all a tuneless racket with a bunch of morons shouting and swearing all over it. Those videos you were talking about... the live ones were filmed by me at the Moorings and put up on youtube by me. The other one that was on the go has scenes from 'Nil by Mouth' all the way through. Nil by Mouth was a very anti- domestic violence film. I know the guy who made that video and posted it and I know his feelings on domestic violence- him having come from a family where these things went on and also having been a victim of domestic violence from a one time spouse. So again- do your research first. Anything else is reactionary and counter productive- it also makes you look bad when you don't. Rob- I respect where you are coming from, and I believe we would have much common ground, just not on this- I'm nae trying to be a dick and if I had any shred of belief that Wifebeater or any of it's members were pro-domestic violence, we would have had absolutely nothing to do with them. To us, this was clearly not the case, because we took the time to get to know them and they seem like good guys who we're happy to have been involved with, despite what others might think about that. In combatting domestic abuse it would be far more productive to beat the shit out of wifebeaters than to verbally assault a band called Wifebeater, who have (now) clearly stated it's intention as irony- and yet I fully expect you will post again, ignore salient points and tackle those who are being rude and abusive because it's easier and gives you a moral high ground.. At the very least, have some respect for the band as people and do not automatically assume they are liars and covering up their mysogeny. Talk to them, formulate an opinion based on knowledge, not hearsay. Boing- I'm sick of this now. Over and out.

It is starting to sound like band-wagon jumping. A band who's name and 'schtick' have a few pc folks tutting, and as soon as someone jumps on them everyone else piles in like cluster-fucks. It's a bit like the Brand/ Ross/ Manuel incident. When you say your investigations included...erm... reading this thread, did you read it all? Did you read my earlier comment about Crass and the Dead Kennedy's lyrics. In your Utopian society, would the Dead Kennedys have been banned for singing about killing poor people and making light of Pol Pot and the killing fields? Did the punk movement as a whole become discernably more anti-cambodian, or were there punk-pogroms against the poor because of this? Strict regulation of peoples lives is NOT characteristic of anarchism. Censorship is clearly a tool of the fascist state. I think you need to credit people who listen to music with a bit more intelligence, most people don't need you, or anyone, else to think for them- they want to do it themselves and rightly so. The guy who wrote the lyrics has now clearly stated the intention as ironic, and most who have actually seen/ heard/ met the band (without any preconception of guilt) have 'got' it. And yet they keep being likened to Nazi's- a very subtle way of painting them in a negative light without actually saying it. It also occurred to me that there are two other situations which I can't really speculate on CASE A: Perhaps the lyricist came from a background of domestic abuse. After years of not talking about it to anyone, the only way to express the pent up anger was to write songs about it. Chanting all the bullshit excuses he has heard used as lyrics. CASE B: Perhaps the lyricist has indulged in a bit of handiness at home at some point, to his eternal guilt and shame. Perhaps the songs are telling us what he did as a way of exorcising these feelings. I couldn't say if either of these cases were true and I certainly wouldn't expect anyone to be so candid about their personal life on 'teh Internut'. But these are possibilities you have to consider as well. Though my intial reading of them was Post-Modern Irony, plain and simple. That belief hasn't changed. And the thought of wife-beaters going to see a band just because they percieve them as 'promoting domestic violence' makes me laugh so much- do they have conventions too? Heh! Most wifebeaters aren't proud of it, many are ashamed and hide it under a veneer of 'normal family life', often apologising after the event, crying and promising to change. I can't see them all congregating at a Wifebeater gig! Ludicrous!. As Wifebeater mainly play in pubs and don't have any real cd's available- in what way will they corrupt children?

I've seen them live and met them and I've never been struck by 'machismo' from the band- nae offense intended but that's a load of cock, sorry mate. At no point have I ever got the impression that Wifebeater were 'just tryin tae act tough'. Nothing personal- If you don't know anything about the band other than hearsay, then either take the trouble to find out more first, or don't formulate opinions based on ignorance.