Lemon Tree No More???

[chilli]

Hi Everyone,

Been holding off posting because of how personally sensitive I feel about the loss of the Lemon Tree and all that it means to me. It's hard to read some of the comments here that seem naive at best, if not purposefully hurtful. But since I post here for all my shows, I guess it would be bad manners to not at least comment once on the situation.

First, this isn't going to be some balanced statement, not at all. I had a very personal stake in the Lemon Tree even if I saw it's flaws and handicaps. I've never worked with such amazing people. And seriously, I'm not just saying this out of some 'the ship is sinking, say something poetic' sensibility...It's sincere when I say that the staff there are some of the most genuine and committed people I've ever worked with.

But having said that, I do understand many of the comments on here, from the 'don't pump money into a leaky bucket' to the 'best venue Aberdeen's ever seen' and all the rest. At one time I've had most of those thoughts as well, and of course if you're only exposure to the Lemon Tree is as a music venue, how can you not see it in only these terms?

But much of that changed when I actually started working there. Now,---I know that's not an option that everyone can have and isn't the point, but once I was exposed to the shear volume and diversity of work that was occurring as a result of the Lemon Tree, I realized that most of my opinions were being formed from a very narrow perspective and misconception of what the Lemon Tree actually was and I had no idea of the scope and amount of work and love that the L.Tree pumped out to the community.

Yes, I said love and it might sound ridiculous hippy bullshit, but it's not, and I ain't no hippy-most of you who have strayed into one of my concerts know that. Yes there were amazing shows, yes famous artists played there, yes it's the top venue for local bands to aspire to etc. But that doesn't hold a candle to what the real value of the Lemon Tree was and what it was really achieving quietly and constantly behind the scenes, not asking for any pats on the back or accolades etc.

And that includes the drama groups with disabled people that wrote, performed, and organized their own plays. Want to talk about quality and commitment? They were top notch, and the Lemon Tree and staff were there to provide that experience to sold out audiences. Would a local bar do that? There's the seniors group that met every week with more enthusiasm than any local band I've ever seen...and not just choir and brass bands (who are there and excellent as well) but full on rock bands with 70 year olds giving it there all-who's going to step up to support these people? There's the puppet shows with world famous artists performing to hundreds of children who will always remember these events. There's the Thursday lunchtime gigs for up and coming bands. And there's the Youth Music development that I was coordinating that had some of the best tutors in Aberdeen giving lessons for free in the absolute worst areas of town to kids that really, I mean, REALLY needed it, need some hope and some opportunities.

This is what we've lost, this is the true shortsightedness of the council, this is what we should all be gasping about. I can't tell you how many times I was at one of these centers when kids had to freeze in their tracks until the community leader ran out to remove the drug needles littered across their path...Who's going to support these kids and provide them with opportunities to 'get out'? I mean, it goes on and on and on the amount of work like this that was pumping out into the community. And not a fucking word about that in the paper or on the radio...no, just 'Isn't it a shame we won't get to listen to xyz' on Wednesday nights.

So yeah, I think it sucks we lost a great venue, but I think it's a tragedy that we lost an amazing arts organization that really cared about it's community and the people it served, all the while having to labor against a mistaken identity as a commercial music venue. With the closing of the Lemon Tree I've spent most of the week telling the tutors that they won't be able to work with their kids, telling the community centers that their music programs are over, and next week I get to go and meet with all the kids across the city we've worked with and personally to try and explain why all of a sudden it's all over, and that's just my little slice. All the other arts development workers will have to do the same with their communities too.

The Lemon Tree was much more than a center or venue, it was a heart pumping support out into the community and supporting groups that really needed it, in ways that no other arts organization was doing, and none as well.

Bill

There were a few posts that fleetingly covered the LT remit, but certainly none as eloquent

or detailed as yours Bill. It needed someone from within to tell it as it is..........

Mike

[Guest -becky-]

Yup! It's the young folk running it is what it needs. Someone with some gumption at least. Right, consider me applauding from a distance!

*heads for wine and good music*

J

The co-ordinater of the campaign is actually, and I'm sure she won't mind me saying this, (as I'm sure you won't mind me saying this ), a mid-40s self-proclaimed vigilante who has been making sure we abide by the correct processes at all times! Nae yellow buckets

Members of the public were approaching me today to say in conspirational tones, "I hear there will be a vigil on castlegate". Seeing as a protest wasn't started by core members of the campaign, I don't see how it can generate bad publicity for the cause!

Another thing to say in response to those who are cynical about the lemon tree using the money to break-even then continue to struggle: last year, the Scottish Arts Council cut is annual funding which totalled 800,000 from 2002 to 2006. The 150,000 can be seen as a direct knock-on effect of this.

With this in mind, I'm sure a few will know that new posts taken up in the last year, and new strategies put into motion, in finance, marketing and of our music and comedy programmer Isla Angus made the outlook very promising. The Complete Stone Roses were the last *ever* tribute band still left over from the Andy Shearer era (unless you count Nouvelle Vague and Hayseed Dixie, which I wouldn't). Some very exciting events on the horizon. Also, I'm sure IMP would agree that the Lemon Tree and more particularly Isla, were instrumental in helping them bring fantastic bands , particularly on the scale of the Boredoms to Aberdeen. Obviously this is in relation to people's concerns over a 'music venue', it does not touch on the success of development projects (externally funded) and mid-range theatre marketing over the last couple of the years.

I realise the above has nothing to do with the structure of how the organisation was run, and I'm sure if the venue reopened there would be a huge demand for accountability, re-organisation and artistic vision. Hall Harper, chairman of the board, said on Nov 24th that the organisation was reviewing the way it was perceived and how it operated.

[Guest -becky-]

Hi Everyone,

Been holding off posting because of how personally sensitive I feel about the loss of the Lemon Tree and all that it means to me. It's hard to read some of the comments here that seem naive at best, if not purposefully hurtful. But since I post here for all my shows, I guess it would be bad manners to not at least comment once on the situation.

First, this isn't going to be some balanced statement, not at all. I had a very personal stake in the Lemon Tree even if I saw it's flaws and handicaps. I've never worked with such amazing people. And seriously, I'm not just saying this out of some 'the ship is sinking, say something poetic' sensibility...It's sincere when I say that the staff there are some of the most genuine and committed people I've ever worked with.

But having said that, I do understand many of the comments on here, from the 'don't pump money into a leaky bucket' to the 'best venue Aberdeen's ever seen' and all the rest. At one time I've had most of those thoughts as well, and of course if you're only exposure to the Lemon Tree is as a music venue, how can you not see it in only these terms?

But much of that changed when I actually started working there. Now,---I know that's not an option that everyone can have and isn't the point, but once I was exposed to the shear volume and diversity of work that was occurring as a result of the Lemon Tree, I realized that most of my opinions were being formed from a very narrow perspective and misconception of what the Lemon Tree actually was and I had no idea of the scope and amount of work and love that the L.Tree pumped out to the community.

Yes, I said love and it might sound ridiculous hippy bullshit, but it's not, and I ain't no hippy-most of you who have strayed into one of my concerts know that. Yes there were amazing shows, yes famous artists played there, yes it's the top venue for local bands to aspire to etc. But that doesn't hold a candle to what the real value of the Lemon Tree was and what it was really achieving quietly and constantly behind the scenes, not asking for any pats on the back or accolades etc.

And that includes the drama groups with disabled people that wrote, performed, and organized their own plays. Want to talk about quality and commitment? They were top notch, and the Lemon Tree and staff were there to provide that experience to sold out audiences. Would a local bar do that? There's the seniors group that met every week with more enthusiasm than any local band I've ever seen...and not just choir and brass bands (who are there and excellent as well) but full on rock bands with 70 year olds giving it there all-who's going to step up to support these people? There's the puppet shows with world famous artists performing to hundreds of children who will always remember these events. There's the Thursday lunchtime gigs for up and coming bands. And there's the Youth Music development that I was coordinating that had some of the best tutors in Aberdeen giving lessons for free in the absolute worst areas of town to kids that really, I mean, REALLY needed it, need some hope and some opportunities.

This is what we've lost, this is the true shortsightedness of the council, this is what we should all be gasping about. I can't tell you how many times I was at one of these centers when kids had to freeze in their tracks until the community leader ran out to remove the drug needles littered across their path...Who's going to support these kids and provide them with opportunities to 'get out'? I mean, it goes on and on and on the amount of work like this that was pumping out into the community. And not a fucking word about that in the paper or on the radio...no, just 'Isn't it a shame we won't get to listen to xyz' on Wednesday nights.

So yeah, I think it sucks we lost a great venue, but I think it's a tragedy that we lost an amazing arts organization that really cared about it's community and the people it served, all the while having to labor against a mistaken identity as a commercial music venue. With the closing of the Lemon Tree I've spent most of the week telling the tutors that they won't be able to work with their kids, telling the community centers that their music programs are over, and next week I get to go and meet with all the kids across the city we've worked with and personally to try and explain why all of a sudden it's all over, and that's just my little slice. All the other arts development workers will have to do the same with their communities too.

The Lemon Tree was much more than a center or venue, it was a heart pumping support out into the community and supporting groups that really needed it, in ways that no other arts organization was doing, and none as well.

Bill

Bill,

Got trigger happy with my post before seeing yours and I'm glad you posted.. perfectly articulated.. and while I have the chance to say it (on here of all places), you as well as others (Janie notably) are to be commended for the work you have done and will continue to do. Hope to see you soon and good luck with everything.

Becky (i'll miss the toilet humour )

[Jim Stax]

The co-ordinater of the campaign is actually, and I'm sure she won't mind me saying this, (as I'm sure you won't mind me saying this ), a mid-40s self-proclaimed vigilante who has been making sure we abide by the correct processes at all times! Nae yellow buckets

Members of the public were approaching me today to say in conspirational tones, "I hear there will be a vigil on castlegate". Seeing as a protest wasn't started by core members of the campaign, I don't see how it can generate bad publicity for the cause!

Another thing to say in response to those who are cynical about the lemon tree using the money to break-even then continue to struggle: last year, the Scottish Arts Council cut is annual funding which totalled 800,000 from 2002 to 2006. The 150,000 can be seen as a direct knock-on effect of this.

With this in mind, I'm sure a few will know that new posts taken up in the last year, and new strategies put into motion, in finance, marketing and of our music and comedy programmer Isla Angus made the outlook very promising. The Complete Stone Roses were the last *ever* tribute band still left over from the Andy Shearer era (unless you count Nouvelle Vague and Hayseed Dixie, which I wouldn't). Some very exciting events on the horizon. Also, I'm sure IMP would agree that the Lemon Tree and more particularly Isla, were instrumental in helping them bring fantastic bands , particularly on the scale of the Boredoms to Aberdeen. Obviously this is in relation to people's concerns over a 'music venue', it does not touch on the success of development projects (externally funded) and mid-range theatre marketing over the last couple of the years.

I realise the above has nothing to do with the structure of how the organisation was run, and I'm sure if the venue reopened there would be a huge demand for accountability, re-organisation and artistic vision. Hall Harper, chairman of the board, said on Nov 24th that the organisation was reviewing the way it was perceived and how it operated.

There was a notable and positive difference over the period of time mentioned and it is disappointing that this happened before that could start to take effect, which clearly wouldn't happen over night. I have run through a great deal of emotion over the last few days whilst absorbing the news which may explain my random comments. They are all coming from a place of concern, I will add, and I'm now settling in the 'save it' camp. The way things seemed on here initially from the LT brigade looked to be a knee jerk reaction and some of it worried me, again from a place of concern for those involved. I have been a critic of some LT business practice in the past but this was aimed at the top and the board never those on the coal face. So as mentioned I applaud what is being done. Please don't take offence if I am not seen to be getting my hands dirty but trust I will shout and support in my own manner and in the right direction...

You know when a relationship ends and you go through a period of missing, hating, remembering, mouthing off at and then finally getting over and on with it with a special place set aside for that person. I would think there is a much of that going on... Myself included.

:up: Good luck

And well said Prof!!!!

[Mothership]

Common Good Fund

After reading Bill's excellent and moving post I chanced upon a thread relating to a previous financial crisis. In a post detailing the situation at the time, it was stated that the Lemon Tree received 40,000 from the Common Good Fund.

Surely given the Lemon Tree's remit the Common Good fund would again be an appropriate source of funding? Surely this is more worthwhile than the Provost's car!

If the loss of grants is the source of the shortfall, and the finances are being handled properly and it's not a complete money pit, surely the council can fill that gap?

Common Good Fund Spending Objectives

Upholding the dignity of the City, i.e. the expense of civic ceremonies and of the provision of suitable hospitality on appropriate occasions and for appropriate persons.

The management, upkeep and improvement of Council property which forms part of the Common Good.

Safeguarding the corporate rights of the community and defending its interests.

Granting donations to public institutions or charities.

Any other reasonable purpose which in the reasonable judgement of the Council is for the good of the community as a whole, or in which the inhabitants at large may share (to be distinguished from the separate interests or benefit of any particular individual or group of people, however deserving or needy).

[trippingflags]

good to read these postings - particularly the prof-lofi one,

my views and comments are/were based on my own fleeting visits which were predominantly to (for want of a better word) "rock" gigs.

Your post was a timely reminder to a lot of the less glamorous work that went on. So thanks for bringing that to light.

and lastly...

a reminder of one of my very special nights at ti't tree

love..simply love

ps a great tribute to Arthur was had!

[scottyboy]

And there's the Youth Music development that I was coordinating that had some of the best tutors in Aberdeen giving lessons for free in the absolute worst areas of town to kids that really, I mean, REALLY needed it, need some hope and some opportunities.

i've actually vaguely heard of this. how did it work exactly, teaching instruments in schools i think i heard? also, if they were giving lessons for free can it not be kept going independent of the lemon tree? or do you mean that the kids didn't have to pay but tutors were still paid by the lemon tree? it's a great pity to lose something like that right enough

[blackisler]

Bill - you've made me cry again! I have done way too much crying this past week.

I'm gonna pitch in on this MUSIC site and tell a little bit about the threatre side of things at the Tree - bet some of you never even know there was a theatre?

Anyway I was the theatre/dance/kids shows programmer there for the last 5 years and I am angry & upset - but not for me

I am angry for all the 700 kids who were supposed to be there on Wednesday & Thursday to see a show for their Christmas nursery/school treat. My own son's school included. It broke my heart to tell him he wouldn't be going.

I am angry for the 40 or so mentally & phiysically disabled adults who come to their drama group every Tuesday night. They were the last ever group to use the venue before the locks were changed. If you have ever seen a Va Va Voom show you will know how truly special in so many ways that strand of the Lemon Tree's work was.

I am angry for the 50+ Chior & Theatre Group who meet weekly and were supposed to have their Christmas show on Friday. The wonderful men & women of Vocal Moves & Theatre Serindipity - I salute you.

I'm angry that the only choice of kids theatre in the city will be the Singing Kettle, Cbeebies, Lazytown and the likes. Are HMT and AECC going to be interested in putting on theatre for special needs children with makaton signing and limited audience capacity of 40? And theatre for under 3's for 20 kids at a time? So many kids have had their first ever experience of theatre at the Tree - that is now lost.

What choice now will there be to see theatre in Aberdeen? Andrew Lloyd Webber et al musicals at His Majestys at 30 a ticket or amateur drama groups at The Arts Centre. How dissapointing to have the Oil Capital of Europe with nowhere to support a culturally diverse, bold, innovative and high quality programme of theatre, dance and childrens performances.

I am personally gutted at all the performances I have had to cancel that were booked for 2008 - particular highlights included Tam O'Shanter Shadow Puppet Show, Dave Benson Phillips Get Up and Go Show (YES - the real DBP form Get Your Own Back) Mull Theatre Katie Morag, European kids shows as part of the Bank of Scotland Children's International Theatre Festival, Stellar Quines The Unconquered (CATS award for Best New Play) and lastly a 3 night run of Iain Banks The Wasp Factory which I was convinced may even have enticed some muso's to come and see a theatre show!

I can see that some of the music acts who appeared at the Lemon Tree can now be slotted into other venues but I can't think of any viabale alternatives where the theatre/dance/kids shows could be performed elsewhere in Aberdeen - there simply is nowhere. Well except for the new 20 million Union Terrace gardens Contemporary Arts Centre. But surely thats just a co-incidence?

[jf9tp2wd40]

Bill - you've made me cry again! I have done way too much crying this past week.

I'm gonna pitch in on this MUSIC site and tell a little bit about the threatre side of things at the Tree - bet some of you never even know there was a theatre?

Anyway I was the theatre/dance/kids shows programmer there for the last 5 years and I am angry & upset - but not for me

I am angry for all the 700 kids who were supposed to be there on Wednesday & Thursday to see a show for their Christmas nursery/school treat. My own son's school included. It broke my heart to tell him he wouldn't be going.

I am angry for the 40 or so mentally & phiysically disabled adults who come to their drama group every Tuesday night. They were the last ever group to use the venue before the locks were changed. If you have ever seen a Va Va Voom show you will know how truly special in so many ways that strand of the Lemon Tree's work was.

I am angry for the 50+ Chior & Theatre Group who meet weekly and were supposed to have their Christmas show on Friday. The wonderful men & women of Vocal Moves & Theatre Serindipity - I salute you.

I'm angry that the only choice of kids theatre in the city will be the Singing Kettle, Cbeebies, Lazytown and the likes. Are HMT and AECC going to be interested in putting on theatre for special needs children with makaton signing and limited audience capacity of 40? And theatre for under 3's for 20 kids at a time? So many kids have had their first ever experience of theatre at the Tree - that is now lost.

What choice now will there be to see theatre in Aberdeen? Andrew Lloyd Webber et al musicals at His Majestys at 30 a ticket or amateur drama groups at The Arts Centre. How dissapointing to have the Oil Capital of Europe with nowhere to support a culturally diverse, bold, innovative and high quality programme of theatre, dance and childrens performances.

I am personally gutted at all the performances I have had to cancel that were booked for 2008 - particular highlights included Tam O'Shanter Shadow Puppet Show, Dave Benson Phillips Get Up and Go Show (YES - the real DBP form Get Your Own Back) Mull Theatre Katie Morag, European kids shows as part of the Bank of Scotland Children's International Theatre Festival, Stellar Quines The Unconquered (CATS award for Best New Play) and lastly a 3 night run of Iain Banks The Wasp Factory which I was convinced may even have enticed some muso's to come and see a theatre show!

I can see that some of the music acts who appeared at the Lemon Tree can now be slotted into other venues but I can't think of any viabale alternatives where the theatre/dance/kids shows could be performed elsewhere in Aberdeen - there simply is nowhere. Well except for the new 20 million Union Terrace gardens Contemporary Arts Centre. But surely thats just a co-incidence?

It truely is a shame... i wish more could be done for theese groups, because as you and others have said... the loss of the music venue is a shame, but the loss of the facility for young theatre, disabled theatre, and 50+ choir group ect. is something that has nowhere else to go, i think that is the real loss with the lemontree, places like tunnels and moshulu will pickup the gigs im sure

[original_andy]

Hi,

We're having a discussion on the Lemon Tree on tomorrow night's Sunday Showcase on Original 106. At the moment we've got Cllr George Adam who was on the board and someone from the save the lemon tree campaign.

I'd really like to get someone from the local music scene involved in the discussion. We'll talking about why the LT shut down, how can it be saved and if it should be saved.

Please e-mail me on andrew.learmonth@originalfm.com if you're interested in coming on. It'll be in the studio or if you can't make that on the phone line. We'll be starting the discussion at 6.30pm.

Cheers

Andy

[saf-one]

Hi Everyone,

Been holding off posting because of how personally sensitive I feel about the loss of the Lemon Tree and all that it means to me. It's hard to read some of the comments here that seem naive at best, if not purposefully hurtful. But since I post here for all my shows, I guess it would be bad manners to not at least comment once on the situation.

First, this isn't going to be some balanced statement, not at all. I had a very personal stake in the Lemon Tree even if I saw it's flaws and handicaps. I've never worked with such amazing people. And seriously, I'm not just saying this out of some 'the ship is sinking, say something poetic' sensibility...It's sincere when I say that the staff there are some of the most genuine and committed people I've ever worked with.

But having said that, I do understand many of the comments on here, from the 'don't pump money into a leaky bucket' to the 'best venue Aberdeen's ever seen' and all the rest. At one time I've had most of those thoughts as well, and of course if you're only exposure to the Lemon Tree is as a music venue, how can you not see it in only these terms?

But much of that changed when I actually started working there. Now,---I know that's not an option that everyone can have and isn't the point, but once I was exposed to the shear volume and diversity of work that was occurring as a result of the Lemon Tree, I realized that most of my opinions were being formed from a very narrow perspective and misconception of what the Lemon Tree actually was and I had no idea of the scope and amount of work and love that the L.Tree pumped out to the community.

Yes, I said love and it might sound ridiculous hippy bullshit, but it's not, and I ain't no hippy-most of you who have strayed into one of my concerts know that. Yes there were amazing shows, yes famous artists played there, yes it's the top venue for local bands to aspire to etc. But that doesn't hold a candle to what the real value of the Lemon Tree was and what it was really achieving quietly and constantly behind the scenes, not asking for any pats on the back or accolades etc.

And that includes the drama groups with disabled people that wrote, performed, and organized their own plays. Want to talk about quality and commitment? They were top notch, and the Lemon Tree and staff were there to provide that experience to sold out audiences. Would a local bar do that? There's the seniors group that met every week with more enthusiasm than any local band I've ever seen...and not just choir and brass bands (who are there and excellent as well) but full on rock bands with 70 year olds giving it there all-who's going to step up to support these people? There's the puppet shows with world famous artists performing to hundreds of children who will always remember these events. There's the Thursday lunchtime gigs for up and coming bands. And there's the Youth Music development that I was coordinating that had some of the best tutors in Aberdeen giving lessons for free in the absolute worst areas of town to kids that really, I mean, REALLY needed it, need some hope and some opportunities.

This is what we've lost, this is the true shortsightedness of the council, this is what we should all be gasping about. I can't tell you how many times I was at one of these centers when kids had to freeze in their tracks until the community leader ran out to remove the drug needles littered across their path...Who's going to support these kids and provide them with opportunities to 'get out'? I mean, it goes on and on and on the amount of work like this that was pumping out into the community. And not a fucking word about that in the paper or on the radio...no, just 'Isn't it a shame we won't get to listen to xyz' on Wednesday nights.

So yeah, I think it sucks we lost a great venue, but I think it's a tragedy that we lost an amazing arts organization that really cared about it's community and the people it served, all the while having to labor against a mistaken identity as a commercial music venue. With the closing of the Lemon Tree I've spent most of the week telling the tutors that they won't be able to work with their kids, telling the community centers that their music programs are over, and next week I get to go and meet with all the kids across the city we've worked with and personally to try and explain why all of a sudden it's all over, and that's just my little slice. All the other arts development workers will have to do the same with their communities too.

The Lemon Tree was much more than a center or venue, it was a heart pumping support out into the community and supporting groups that really needed it, in ways that no other arts organization was doing, and none as well.

Bill

Here here!! I agree 100% and glad someone from "the inside" has made it clear to everyone the great work the Leomn Tree did.

PS Why move the thread?

[Bigsby]

This is what we've lost, this is the true shortsightedness of the council, this is what we should all be gasping about.

I should preface this by saying that I'm a fan of the Lemon Tree and I hope a soloution can be found BUT presumably the board/management came up with a business plan etc. They obviously haven't been able to deliver it, leading to the board having to go back to the council to ask for more cash.

How often could the council keep writing cheques? Shouldn't the board/management have "cut its cloth" to match the resources it was being given? Could it have scaled back some of the unquestionably admirable programmes you mentioned to prevent the situation we are in now?

[prof_lofi]

I should preface this by saying that I'm a fan of the Lemon Tree and I hope a soloution can be found BUT presumably the board/management came up with a business plan etc. They obviously haven't been able to deliver it, leading to the board having to go back to the council to ask for more cash.

How often could the council keep writing cheques? Shouldn't the board/management have "cut its cloth" to match the resources it was being given? Could it have scaled back some of the unquestionably admirable programmes you mentioned to prevent the situation we are in now?

Hi Bigsby,

Well, I can't really speak as a rep of the L.Tree as I was only responsible for my little part, but I do know it's a lot more complicated than that, though it's easy to see how that might look like the solution.

The money for each program is specific to that program, they are usually funded by a specific grant applied for by the Ltree for that project and managed, facilitated, and supported by the LTree Arts Org. In addition to facilitating/delivering the programs, a big part of the LTree's job is to manage the accounts of each of these programs and constantly be looking for the next grant to keep it going (and usually you have to find a different grant, or 'rebrand' your project as it's almost impossible to find funding to 'continue' a project, no matter how successful it is-stupidest thing about this job if you ask me.)

Anyway, cutting back the projects doesn't free up the money as they are only usable for that specific project (ie you can't use youth music funding to pay the bar staff etc). As someone said, if the LTree wasn't (by design) responsible to all these community arts projects (which means using it's resources to manage all the various grants accounts, scheduling all the in-house and outside activities, housing the projects and performances, chasing up new funding, processing disclosures, etc etc than maybe it could have been better able to run the 'venue' as a commercial endeavor, but then it would be shorting its obligation to facilitate those programs properly, which is it's mandate as an arts org...also, they'd have to explain to other funding bodies why they've accepted arts funding as a charitable organization and yet are overtly pursuing profit at the expense of its arts programs...not to mention that it wouldn't be the L.Tree, it'd be just another venue...)

Thing is, we were doing better this year than ever as far as I can tell. Had a great new staff, much better programming and marketing with good stuff on the horizon etc. If we would have received the Scot. Arts Council funding, none of this would have happened, we'd be on top. But without it, it's impossible really. Truth is, community arts and arts music isn't commercially viable, it just doesn't sell enough to be presented at the standard that the L.Tree was known for doing and that's probably the only truth you'll find in the art world.

Take Drakes for example.. Like many, it was my favorite venue here, and one of my favorite anywhere. They knew how hard it was to run a music venue in town, how almost impossible it was to deliver something that wasn't overtly commercial and still make ends meet. Even if Drakes had 'gone commercial' it would have had to scrape, as any venue does in town. What probably saves most are bar sales and appealing to the drunken masses. So if you take that situation, where you have to book bands at a price where you see a profit, bottom line, and then even then, you're struggling and competing with tons of other bars doing the same thing, and then add the expectation of-not just peppering it with community arts projects-but that being your main focus. Well, you see what I mean.

Just the arts org. side of things is immense, with multiple grants all with their own time scales and expiration dates and program obligations, hired staff, renewed fundings, program design and target outcomes etc etc. Add to that the venue aspect with 500 or so events to schedule a year, constant negotiations with outside artists, local bands, the community arts events (which is the L.Tree's priority), and then add a cafe, technical staff, ticket sales and box office, marketing, magazine and website, etc. All this was run by less than a dozen people, and of that, less than half were full time employees.

If the L.Tree has had problems breaking even since it opened, then maybe it's not that it hasn't been run properly, maybe it just costs more to run than the council is willing to admit and it's easier to blame it than address the situation. If that is the case, then the real question is what is an organization like the Lemon Tree, community arts organization and venue, worth to Aberdeen? What is Aberdeen's commitment to quality music, art, and its communities? And what are our expectations, what are we willing to accept? Is the fact that the culture gap between Liquid and the Music Hall is getting bigger each year and that it's becoming increasingly obvious that the only place to actually do something other than get completely pissed in Aberdeen is to go to a friend's flat or a movie ok?

I tell you what though, if my girlfriend wasn't starting her PhD here in a month, I'd be down the road in a heartbeat. How the third largest city in Scotland, the 'oil capital' of the UK can't afford to subsidize one decent arts organization and music venue that is obviously valued and known by people around the world is beyond me...Dundee:DCA, Edinburgh:RSA, Glasgow:CCA, Arches, Tramway, NewCastle: Sage etc etc.

"If you build it, they will come" and if you tear it down, most of them are outta here.

Bill

[Jim Stax]

If the L.Tree has had problems breaking even since it opened, then maybe it's not that it hasn't been run properly, maybe it just costs more to run than the council is willing to admit and it's easier to blame it than address the situation. If that is the case, then the real question is what is an organization like the Lemon Tree, community arts organization and venue, worth to Aberdeen? What is Aberdeen's commitment to quality music, art, and its communities? And what are our expectations, what are we willing to accept? Is the fact that the culture gap between Liquid and the Music Hall is getting bigger each year and that it's becoming increasingly obvious that the only place to actually do something other than get completely pissed in Aberdeen is to go to a friend's flat or a movie ok?

I tell you what though, if my girlfriend wasn't starting her PhD here in a month, I'd be down the road in a heartbeat. How the third largest city in Scotland, the 'oil capital' of the UK can't afford to subsidize one decent arts organization and music venue that is obviously valued and known by people around the world is beyond me...Dundee:DCA, Edinburgh:RSA, Glasgow:CCA, Arches, Tramway, NewCastle: Sage etc etc.

"If you build it, they will come" and if you tear it down, most of them are outta here.

Bill

Brilliant Bill! This should be made into a big banner and hung along Union St. Many of us Aberdonians have been banging this drum, give or take, for quite some time. I get fed up of the fight on a monthly basis and like you would have moved, sometime ago, if not for responsibilities. And it saddens me that I still feel like this on and off...

[palmer_eldritch]

BBC NEWS | Scotland | North East/N Isles | Arts centre bid wins commendation

I presume when planning for that was granted, they had already known that the lemon tree was to be shut down later on in the year?

I'm giving them benefit of the doubt that they weren't planning on having two such places open in Aberdeen?

Although it's a shame the venue has closed, I agree that there's no shortage of venues in aberdeen. That's literally just common sense given the events of the past few years.

[Bigsby]

Hi Bigsby,

Well, I can't really speak as a rep of the L.Tree as I was only responsible for my little part, but I do know it's a lot more complicated than that, though it's easy to see how that might look like the solution.

The money for each program is specific to that program, they are usually funded by a specific grant applied for by the Ltree for that project and managed, facilitated, and supported by the LTree Arts Org. In addition to facilitating/delivering the programs, a big part of the LTree's job is to manage the accounts of each of these programs and constantly be looking for the next grant to keep it going (and usually you have to find a different grant, or 'rebrand' your project as it's almost impossible to find funding to 'continue' a project, no matter how successful it is-stupidest thing about this job if you ask me.)

Anyway, cutting back the projects doesn't free up the money as they are only usable for that specific project (ie you can't use youth music funding to pay the bar staff etc). As someone said, if the LTree wasn't (by design) responsible to all these community arts projects (which means using it's resources to manage all the various grants accounts, scheduling all the in-house and outside activities, housing the projects and performances, chasing up new funding, processing disclosures, etc etc than maybe it could have been better able to run the 'venue' as a commercial endeavor, but then it would be shorting its obligation to facilitate those programs properly, which is it's mandate as an arts org...also, they'd have to explain to other funding bodies why they've accepted arts funding as a charitable organization and yet are overtly pursuing profit at the expense of its arts programs...not to mention that it wouldn't be the L.Tree, it'd be just another venue...)

Thing is, we were doing better this year than ever as far as I can tell. Had a great new staff, much better programming and marketing with good stuff on the horizon etc. If we would have received the Scot. Arts Council funding, none of this would have happened, we'd be on top. But without it, it's impossible really. Truth is, community arts and arts music isn't commercially viable, it just doesn't sell enough to be presented at the standard that the L.Tree was known for doing and that's probably the only truth you'll find in the art world.

Take Drakes for example.. Like many, it was my favorite venue here, and one of my favorite anywhere. They knew how hard it was to run a music venue in town, how almost impossible it was to deliver something that wasn't overtly commercial and still make ends meet. Even if Drakes had 'gone commercial' it would have had to scrape, as any venue does in town. What probably saves most are bar sales and appealing to the drunken masses. So if you take that situation, where you have to book bands at a price where you see a profit, bottom line, and then even then, you're struggling and competing with tons of other bars doing the same thing, and then add the expectation of-not just peppering it with community arts projects-but that being your main focus. Well, you see what I mean.

Just the arts org. side of things is immense, with multiple grants all with their own time scales and expiration dates and program obligations, hired staff, renewed fundings, program design and target outcomes etc etc. Add to that the venue aspect with 500 or so events to schedule a year, constant negotiations with outside artists, local bands, the community arts events (which is the L.Tree's priority), and then add a cafe, technical staff, ticket sales and box office, marketing, magazine and website, etc. All this was run by less than a dozen people, and of that, less than half were full time employees.

If the L.Tree has had problems breaking even since it opened, then maybe it's not that it hasn't been run properly, maybe it just costs more to run than the council is willing to admit and it's easier to blame it than address the situation. If that is the case, then the real question is what is an organization like the Lemon Tree, community arts organization and venue, worth to Aberdeen? What is Aberdeen's commitment to quality music, art, and its communities? And what are our expectations, what are we willing to accept? Is the fact that the culture gap between Liquid and the Music Hall is getting bigger each year and that it's becoming increasingly obvious that the only place to actually do something other than get completely pissed in Aberdeen is to go to a friend's flat or a movie ok?

I tell you what though, if my girlfriend wasn't starting her PhD here in a month, I'd be down the road in a heartbeat. How the third largest city in Scotland, the 'oil capital' of the UK can't afford to subsidize one decent arts organization and music venue that is obviously valued and known by people around the world is beyond me...Dundee:DCA, Edinburgh:RSA, Glasgow:CCA, Arches, Tramway, NewCastle: Sage etc etc.

"If you build it, they will come" and if you tear it down, most of them are outta here.

Bill

OK, fair enough, so it sounds like those small projects weren't the problem then. But the board must have known that it wasn't getting its SAC grant for some time now. It should have either have cut back somewhere else or been upfront and told the council that they just couldn't do it with what was being offered at the time.

[chilli]

Awarded to The Lemon Tree on 5th Dec 07

Ironic

http://living.scotsman.com/index.cfm?id=1895752007

[blackisler]

But the board must have known that it wasn't getting its SAC grant for some time now.

Again there has been an awfull lot of mis-reporting with regards to SAC. SAC have not and never have pulled all funding from The Lemon Tree. In 2006 the way all arts organisations in Scotland were funded changed and TLT went from being automatically Core Funded to Project Funded. Yes it was a huge blow and Project Funding in itself did cause difficulties as it was only a 1 year award so very difficult to forward plan and run long term projects. However SAC were so impressed as to how TLT turned itself around that this year they specifically asked us to apply for the next step up of 3 year Flexible Funding. Ironically this application had recently been completed and submitted and we were eagerly anticipationg the successful outcome of the award which would have allowed us to develop a sustainable 3 year plan.

[chilli]

However SAC were so impressed as to how TLT turned itself around that this year they specifically asked us to apply for the next step up of 3 year Flexible Funding. Ironically this application had recently been completed and submitted and we were eagerly anticipationg the successful outcome of the award which would have allowed us to develop a sustainable 3 year plan.

this just fets worse, if the council were made aware of this fact, surely interim support would have been available & they should have funded The LT upto the point of the outcome.

[blackisler]

this just fets worse, if the council were made aware of this fact, surely interim support would have been available & they should have funded The LT upto the point of the outcome.

It just reinforces the fact thet the Council know the cost of everything and the value of nothing

[Jamie]

So how's the campaign going? What news of the Lemon Aid fund-raiser?

[highlandhussy]

I presume when planning for that was granted, they had already known that the lemon tree was to be shut down later on in the year?

I'm giving them benefit of the doubt that they weren't planning on having two such places open in Aberdeen?

Although it's a shame the venue has closed, I agree that there's no shortage of venues in aberdeen. That's literally just common sense given the events of the past few years.

The Lemon Tree isnt just a venue! Its an arts centre!

Without the Lemon Tree in Aberdeen there is nothing that caters for the groups that used it.

Its a major loss to the north east community.

[blackisler]

So how's the campaign going? What news of the Lemon Aid fund-raiser?

3pm this Coming Saturday @ The Tunnels. So far we have The Loreli, The Little Kicks and Eric Euan playing. Full details soon. Spread the word!

[ghost]

I wonder how many people working for the council would have given up their paid-for lunches to keep the Lemon Tree going? What was the cost a couple of years ago? 50k+?

Seriously, darkly, royally pissed off about this - and not just because I'm missing out on all the winter gigs I'd planned to see. Where's that grim smiley?

Bill's right too - some cracking venues in other cities and the council NEED a place like LT to draw in touring gigs/rep shows/stand up & at the same time keep the few tourists and their pennies in the city. Shot themselves in the foot a little there eh?

Good luck with the benefit gig this weekend! Some nice names lined up!

Ian

[black_matter]

Where's that grim smiley?

:moody:

take yer pick!