Flash@TMB Posted April 27, 2004 Report Share Posted April 27, 2004 Do you feel that drum machines are acceptable in any form of 'rock music'?I'm referring to the whole spectrum or genre of 'rock music' in it's broadest sense, i.e. as opposed to the entire genre of 'dance music'.Here is my argument AGAINST drum machines:1) A real drummer can respond to feedback from the rest of the band and the crowd. This enables some freeform changes, jamming, extending songs, improvisation etc. 2) A real drummer can incorporate subtle changes in dynamics that may be appropriate at the time. Every time the music is performed the drumming will vary along with the rest of the human operated instruments. This is one of the great joys of listening to live music. If it were the same everytime we'd be as well with CDs.3) All musicians can impart content from theirs soul into the music by means of the a direct physical extension of their will through their physical body into the insrtument. This is one of the main reasons that rock music carries a high degree of emotional content. Listen to the bass on Fleetwood Mac's 'You Make Lovin Fun'. The vocalist on the track is singing about her affair with the lighting engineer, and the bassist is her estranged husband.4) If we eliminate the drummer then who is next? The bass player? Follow this route and you ultimately end up with someone singing to a computer generated backing track like karaoke. Then you eliminate the singer, and we have errr dance music.5) Someone said to me "it helps if you have programmed beats because it means you can appeal to the dance audience also".LMAO when dance first appeared people were making some dance records with alleged cross genre appeal to the rock market. Pointless because at that time rock was virtually dead. It's the same now in reverse. Dance is dead. Some people haven't realised that yet but - hey so what. No point in appealing to it's audience then.6) The computer can do things that a drummer can't. Err possibly, but believe me that there's even more things a drummer can do that a computer can't. This argument is invalid. It's usually made by people that haven't listened closely to drumming, especially jazz drumming. 7) The drummer is good to watch, often the mostvisually entertaining part of the band.8) I have seen the Terminator movies. Having said all this there are bands performing that I really like, that utilise drum machines in place of real drummers. It's just that I feel they'd be better with drummers.I look forward to hearing arguments from the otherside! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justincutyou Posted April 27, 2004 Report Share Posted April 27, 2004 I'm a real drummer and I love using drum machines. I also like playing electronic drum pads because I'm all about rhythems and I don't really care where it comes from. In my opinion programming can be an art in and of itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RF Scott Posted April 27, 2004 Report Share Posted April 27, 2004 using a drum machine along with a drummer is good. As is using sampled drums, with a drummer. and so on and so forth and so on and so forth...yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
framheim Posted April 27, 2004 Report Share Posted April 27, 2004 drum machines can create all manner of fucked up noises and sounds which a standard kit just can't i can't help feeling that you're argument centres around the fact you don't like dance music and thus anything associated with dance music has no place in a rock band. didn't do echo and the bunnymen any harm. i believe that you shouldn't write off any instrument(and yes a drum machine is an instrument) as it just restricts your options. if a song can be better by using a drum machine then use a drum machine. i don't think dance music is dead, it's just more underground again. it's going through a commercial recession but it'll probably re-emerge once someone comes up with a sound that appeals to everyone again. perhaps the rapture, dfa et all will lead to that. all music is cyclic, it never dies it just goes back to the bedrooms and the garage's. anyway, surely you can manipulate drum machines in real time as well as just have them preprogrammed? you can add effects and use keyboards to release sounds at different times and to react to the live situation. what do you think about drum triggers? we're trying to work out a way to incorporate some of martin's synth and drum machine wizardy into dedalus' live set at the moment. i think it can add a different dimension to a band's sound, but it can also overpower the basis of the song if used badly. so i'm for it, but not if it's shit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
less_than_stu Posted April 27, 2004 Report Share Posted April 27, 2004 you can get some fucking cool sounds out of a drum machine sometimes. Wen Radiohead played the Exhibition centre, they used drum machines well, i thought, purely because they got such amazing atmospheric osunds out of them......and of course the drum'n'bass stuff in "Sit down. Stand up" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dayeth Posted April 27, 2004 Report Share Posted April 27, 2004 If your band can't find an actual drummer that can't be avoided, but I prefer the real deal. I don't have too much against drum machines as such...if they aren't abused. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flash@TMB Posted April 27, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 27, 2004 Originally posted by daveofficer:drum machines can create all manner of fucked up noises and sounds which a standard kit just can't i can't help feeling that you're argument centres around the fact you don't like dance music and thus anything associated with dance music has no place in a rock band. anyway, surely you can manipulate drum machines in real time as well as just have them preprogrammed? you can add effects and use keyboards to release sounds at different times and to react to the live situation. what do you think about drum triggers? My own thoughts are that incorporating some percussion type effects - the ones a drummer can't do, into the synth is a good plan, provided theyare triggered by the human operating the synth. The effects on Pink Floyd and Hawkwind tracks are amazing.I still feel the actual rythmn should have a real-time physical human source though, err like a drummer with drums.Personally I don't like electric kits because they always seem to have a grossly artificial sound unlike an electric guitar where the sound still feels like it's a result of the strings and other physical aspects of the instrument. Having said that I like the sounds of a synth, and I guess my argument coul be applied to piano vs synth. Not sure how to resolve that one LOL!You are correct that I do have an aversion to dance music. Some of it I can appreciate to an extent, but I'm always aware that I'm listening to a computer. Even though it may (or may not) be programmed by a musician it's the lack of the physical that bothers me most. I also have to a lesser extent some problems with recorded music, especially where its overcompressed and sounds 'false'.When I hear Karen Carpenter sing the words "Long ago, and oh so far away", it's enough to make the hairs stand up on the back of my neck - I couldn't make that connection if I knew she was a robot, or a creation of cyberspace. It works for me because she was a flesh and blood human. Like us. The same way that I could never fall in love with a robot, no matter how perfect, although I dare say there are people that would prefer that sort of relationship.The main thrust of my argument was that I believe any step towards automation is anti-human, or even anti-life. To me music will always be about emotion, and I struggle to believe that this can be properly imparted by programming a machine. For instance I detect no emotional content in the programming of this web forum software we are using, even though the programmers may well have put their heart and souls into coding it.I hope this puts my question back into the context I intended. Thanks for your perceptive, and well reasoned response.PS I appologise for the dance is dead comment. It was spiteful and uncalled for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psydoll Posted April 27, 2004 Report Share Posted April 27, 2004 Originally posted by Flash@TMB:PS I appologise for the dance is dead comment. Hehehe I did wonder if you'd stand by that - depends what you class as dance though - all electronica or just like house music for example? House has got a bit bland lately for me but dunno if I'm just looking in the wrong places...Drum machines are all well and good in their place I think. Certain types of music benefit from them like your goth or EBM sorta bands like Covenant or Manuskript (can't imagine them with a drummer) but for good ol' rock and roll you cannae beat a live drummer Like Dayeth said mind they're also handy when you can't find a drummer. They're an unpredictable breed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flash@TMB Posted April 27, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 27, 2004 Originally posted by psydoll:Like Dayeth said mind they're also handy when you can't find a drummer. They're an unpredictable breed. Perhaps that should have been option 4, but to be honest option 2 kind of covers that response anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flash@TMB Posted April 27, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 27, 2004 Originally posted by psydoll:depends what you class as dance though - all electronica or just like house music for example? Damn good point! For me electronica is where the instruments themselves are artifical but can be played live in real time by the musicians. For instance the synth. That would imply an electronic drum kit, or drum sounds actrivate by pressing or hitting something... which to me is acceptable in that genre of music AND very important to the sound. Relevant to this question is only whether the sounds are preprogrammed or activated by a human being in real time.I guess that's the crux of it.Not as straightforward an issue as I had first anticipated, which is good because for some of us that may invoke thinking, learning, and potentially modifying or even changing opinions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Cynic Posted April 27, 2004 Report Share Posted April 27, 2004 You might have enjoyed Thomas Truax's set at Drummonds a few weeks ago, Flash! He builds his own drum machines out of old bicycle wheels etc, in a real Heath-Robinson fashion. The one in Aberdeen was a baby version of his New York one. I liked it more than a real drummer, 'cos it only smelt of oil!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spellchecker Posted April 27, 2004 Report Share Posted April 27, 2004 Originally posted by Flash@TMB:When I hear Karen Carpenter sing the words "Long ago, and oh so far away", it's enough to make the hairs stand up on the back of my neck - I couldn't make that connection if I knew she was a robot, or a creation of cyberspace. It works for me because she was a flesh and blood human. Like us. The same way that I could never fall in love with a robot, no matter how perfect, although I dare say there are people that would prefer that sort of relationship.Yet when you see computer generated scenes in films, you don't dismiss it because it didn't actually happen. Or do you?Isn't this all a little purist? I love drum machines, they are great for recording, I love triggers and sample pads too. I can sympathise with the comment about drum machines live... it works for some bands, and not for others. I always thought 48k were a lot better with a real drummer, and I think Starfall would be better with a real drummer... however, bands like Strobing Goat or AKA The Faux are much better with drum machines in my opinion. Perhaps that is because the bands are more interesting to watch, and you aren't looking around for something interesting to happen... like you said, drummers are often the most interesting members of a band. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flash@TMB Posted April 27, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 27, 2004 Originally posted by spellchecker:Yet when you see computer generated scenes in films, you don't dismiss it because it didn't actually happen. Or do you? Can I be honest here? Yes those tend to piss me off LOL! That example deviates a long way from my original point. Films to me are usually a form of entertainment. Music for me usually runs much deeper.It's like love doll vs real girl, or vibrater vs... OK I'll get my coat.These are just personal takes though. It's not like after the vote we're going to shoot all the bands that use drum machines!!! I posed the poll because I was interested in other peoples views more than anything. I find that where people disagree it's often because neither party are in posession of all the information.I'd rather not comment on individual bands in this way on a public forum because the choice is theirs. There isn't an absolute right or wrong answer to this question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
psydoll Posted April 27, 2004 Report Share Posted April 27, 2004 Originally posted by spellchecker:AKA The Faux Unfortunate spelling error or thinly veiled dig? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
threeornothing Posted April 27, 2004 Report Share Posted April 27, 2004 On a personal level, my drum machine is an absolute indespesible tool when it comes to song writing! Its not always so easy to record a drum kit in a block of flats (although this has been tried :D) and I can play the SR16 waay better than I can play any real drum kit. yes, the dynamics and feel aren't quite up to an accoustic kits standards, and I can always spot the sound of a drum machine over a real kit. Also live....I did a tour with a drum machine, and despite being a headache with regards to monitoring (in Europe they let you get your amps passed 3) and couldn't get the same intense resonance going through my body to keep me in time...it was a bit of a wasted tour...plus no one really took the drum machine too seriously (bunch of crusty punx in any case).I quite liked AKA The Fox w/ drum machine, although I like my music LOUD...seriously LOUD, and I hate the sound of a loud drum machine, they louder they get, the faker they sound. I guess it all comes down to personal taste....personally I love the ear drum damaging sound of a real kit, plus it just looks daft when theres no drummer..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
framheim Posted April 27, 2004 Report Share Posted April 27, 2004 it is generating an interesting debate this one though, i get what you're saying about the human aspect and the emotional response. i don't think having a drum machine is a step towards automated music making though, its' just another way to get a cool sound into your song. another way to make the hairs on the back of your neck stand up. like someone said, radiohead were awesome at the exhibition centre and have successfully managed to incorporate a huge amount of electronic gadgets into their sound while still illiciting an emotional response. they had affy pretty lights too. boards of canada's music i think is just as emotional as some of my favourite bands who don't use electronics as all. but that's just my own personal response to the music. everyone is affected by different sounds in different ways, and as you said there is no right or wrong answer to this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bryn Posted April 27, 2004 Report Share Posted April 27, 2004 I voted for drum machines, however this is only due to buying one last week and it being great for my little home 4track adventures. I wouldnt use one in a band - the dynamics and stage presence are too valuable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plato the Greek Posted April 27, 2004 Report Share Posted April 27, 2004 Drum Pads on low-end keyboards are really the only option as far as I'm concerned. Such power and beauty. Machines are good, so are people: you don't have to choose. Look at Johnny 5. Johnny 5 is alive. In some situations drum machines sound amazing, powerful and evocative. There can be great beauty in the workings of machines and electronics. The fact that the noise is not necessarily generated by a human at the point of delivery isn't an issue as far as I'm concerned, but opinion is everything on this issue. On the other hand, as far as most rock n roll and live performance is concerned, I usually prefer to see a large, wild-eyed man (or woman, or hermaphrodite) beat hell out of a drumkit, whilst screaming like a godforesaken maniac smashing skulls together in Hades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Afro Droid Posted April 27, 2004 Report Share Posted April 27, 2004 I guess you're never likely to forget your human drummer when you leave to play a gig in Dundee. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nullmouse Posted April 27, 2004 Report Share Posted April 27, 2004 Don't diss drum machines - Doktor Avalanche was the only member of the SoM Eldritch never sacked... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Afro Droid Posted April 27, 2004 Report Share Posted April 27, 2004 At the moment I seem to the only person who voted 'Don't Care' Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 27, 2004 Report Share Posted April 27, 2004 someone mentioned aka the fox earlier... I think I'm in love with that band as of standing in the mass of sweat in Drummond's last night...*drools*I voted machines, not because I'm a synth operator, thus am a machine person... but because drum machines can just offer more extreme sounds than any drummer can make.But then, I find that it's virtually impossible to write music to a drum machine, I also find that the presence of a person behind a kit is far more pleasing than a blinky box. I also find that REAL people drummers are easier to change things with at literally the nod of a head... where as with a machine you have to tinker with it... which is a pain in the arse... unless as Mr Officer mentioned earlier, you have drum triggers... I think the best thing is the combination of machine and man... but I'm possibly biast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delboy Posted April 27, 2004 Report Share Posted April 27, 2004 drum machines drink less, dont want paying and stay in time..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
threeornothing Posted April 27, 2004 Report Share Posted April 27, 2004 Not always the case....damn latency Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M.A.R.T Posted April 27, 2004 Report Share Posted April 27, 2004 man how great would blue monday sound with live drums!and kraftwerk and aphex twin!oh wait...no...that would sound shit!not all music is in a rock format or dance format.its not all black and white.ok so blue monday is essentially a dance song, but it has so much soul to it, so much character. same with aphex twin and kraftwerk.use the right tool for the right job.Originally posted by Lester Burnham:unless as Mr Officer mentioned earlier, you have drum triggers... but again you have to pre-programme it all etc. uhhh...since when does using triggers involve programming? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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