TheTickingTime-Bomb Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 Just because a million people think something is right doesn't make it so. Millions of people didn't see human slavery as illogical Did that make it morally defensible?I was being sarcastic.Sigh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frosty Jack Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 Don't think so. he just signed up with the username bletheringvegan now he's just posting arguments in this thread, looks like he's just here to cause trouble in my opinion.What thread are you reading? This a good going intelligent debate, largely thanks to Mr Vegan's contributions. If you're not able to contribute yourself, stay out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le Stu Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 As I said I remain unconvinced as to feeding a cat a vegan diet especially in male cats, but if a cat can live on a healthy plant-based diet that you provide then why not? Of course some can still hunt, although the cat that I live with is a lazy bastard so I'd be surprised if he came home with a mouse! And vegans don't keep animals as "pets", part of veganism is an opposition to breeding animals for "pets", we are opposed to the property status of animals. But since we have bred these animals into existence it is our responsibility to look after them. I for one will definetely be rescuing as many animals as I can from a local shelter when I get my own place (I currently live with my brother and our flat is tiny). Pets | Animal Rights: The Abolitionist Approach - here is Prof. Gary Francione discussing the issue of "pets" as seen from an abolitionist animal rights perspective.That's fair enough to me, although I will protest that they're still pets despite the ideological motive. Still, I can't really hate on other people for choosing to keep pets except for that one time my old boss bought her teenage daughter a husky as a house pet. Yeah, a fucking husky! I wasn't sure whether to laugh or cry at hearing her row with her daughter on the phone about how the thing was going apeshit and smashing the house up. I think they had it put down in the end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bletheringvegan Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 What thread are you reading? This a good going intelligent debate, largely thanks to Mr Vegan's contributions. If you're not able to contribute yourself, stay out.Thank you. I was just going to point out that not once have I insulted anyone. Just because he doesn't even want to entertain the idea that animals might just feel pain and should be extended the right not to be regarded as human property, doesn't mean the rest of us can't have a good conversation/debate about it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bletheringvegan Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 That's fair enough to me, although I will protest that they're still pets despite the ideological motive. Still, I can't really hate on other people for choosing to keep pets except for that one time my old boss bought her teenage daughter a husky as a house pet. Yeah, a fucking husky! I wasn't sure whether to laugh or cry at hearing her row with her daughter on the phone about how the thing was going apeshit and smashing the house up. I think they had it put down in the end. Yeah, that's really sad. Just to be clear I don't 'hate' anyone for eating animals etc, I once did just that before I actually stopped to think about the repercussions my diet was having on other sentient beings and the world as a whole. The sad fact is that although you or I might be capable of looking after a companion animal, a lot of people aren't. Just look at the thousands and thousands of animals that are in shelters and then euthanised, because they haven't been claimed/adopted, to make space for even more unwanted "pets". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hobo Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 Oh true, wrong choice of words on my part. But still the point stands, millions of people didn't see anything wrong with slavery, yet that didn't mean they were right.Millions of people don't see anything wrong with being a vegetarian, doesn't make them right.I'd rather take my cues on the subject from history, science and other species.Take for example the Aboriginals in Australia. They were eating fish, insects, animals long before the ideas of vegetarianism existed. Or the caves and huts used by prehistoric man which have contained animal bones indented with toothmarks.There probably were some vegetarian societies in pre-recorded history but i'm sure this would have been more out of necessity than being nice to animals. They probably ate fish and insects too which wouldn't have made them vegetarians in the true modern sense of the word.Perhaphs the question should be not 'Should humans eat meat at all' but 'Should humans eat so much meat' or 'Should humans eat only meat killed in an ethically sound way'?But then this thread started off as some poor soul who seems to have been set upon for no reason, showing his objection to what he incorrectly assumed was the modern slaughter of cows and other animals when in fact it was a halal or kosher slaughter house.Perhaps we could shed some more light on this since it has taken some turns, from other species farming to cannibalism. I'm going to try another direction! Religion. The Kosher and Halal methods are religious and far more barbaric than the ones we use here perhaps you should send a letter to your closest imam or rabbi and ask them for their views.I'm sure if you released a lot of farmed animals and pets into the wild their deaths would be far more horrible, starvation, disease etcJust look at the thousands and thousands of animals that are in shelters and then euthanised' date=' because they haven't been claimed/adopted, to make space for even more unwanted "pets"[/quote']Sad isn't it, such a waste, and pointless Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 This a good going intelligent debateI've been watching this thread all day, just waiting for it to disintegrate. It's great. If only all threads were like this.Good work chaps, keep it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bletheringvegan Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 Millions of people don't see anything wrong with being a vegetarian, doesn't make them right.I'd rather take my cues on the subject from history, science and other species.Take for example the Aboriginals in Australia. They were eating fish, insects, animals long before the ideas of vegetarianism existed. Or the caves and huts used by prehistoric man which have contained animal bones indented with toothmarks.There probably were some vegetarian societies in pre-recorded history but i'm sure this would have been more out of necessity than being nice to animals. They probably ate fish and insects too which wouldn't have made them vegetarians in the true modern sense of the word.Perhaphs the question should be not 'Should humans eat meat at all' but 'Should humans eat so much meat' or 'Should humans eat only meat killed in an ethically sound way'?But then this thread started off as some poor soul who seems to have been set upon for no reason, showing his objection to what he incorrectly assumed was the modern slaughter of cows and other animals when in fact it was a halal or kosher slaughter house.Perhaps we could shed some more light on this since it has taken some turns, from other species farming to cannibalism. I'm going to try another direction! Religion. The Kosher and Halal methods are religious and far more barbaric than the ones we use here perhaps you should send a letter to your closest imam or rabbi and ask them for their views.So let me get this straight. Because some historical community ate animals then you have to as well? They would have hunted out of necessity. That is the issue here, we don't need to kill 53 billion+ animals a year for our plates, there is no necessity. If you so enamored with historical societies and their animal consuming habits, then why do you eat animal products that are killed, skinned, cut up and put into containers for you? And why should the question not be "should humans eat meat at all?". It doesn't matter to me whether the slaughter of animals is done by the grace of some some mystical sky being or not, it's still killing a sentient being that doesn't need to be killed.Also, yeah, where has the thread starter gone? lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bletheringvegan Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 Ahem, second post in the whole thread, go see. anyway, toodle pips.If it is something that bothers you that much why are you hiding from it? Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hobo Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 So let me get this straight. Because some historical community ate animals then you have to as well?We don't have to but it is more natural to eat meatThey would have hunted out of necessity.Why? So they could get nutrients plants couldn't provide them with!That is the issue here, we don't need to kill 53 billion+ animals a year for our plates, there is no necessity.You are quite right and as I stated earlier I believe we eat far too much meat today. There is no necessity to kill that many animals however it is very necessary to farm animals as it is crops to feed a consistently growing population.If you so enamored with historical societies and their animal consuming habits, then why do you eat animal products that are killed, skinned, cut up and put into containers for you?The majority of meat that goes goes down my gullet is pre-packaged, i'm not always happy about this but due to time constraints and licences/permits I cannot always get things my way.I do on occasion go out for rabbit, fish, crab, shrimp, pidgeon, snails but only when I have enough time - which is not often - as would be the case for most people.As humanity evolved we have lost some of the time which would otherwise have been used for hunting and gathering. Money is the root of it all because we need money to pay for shelter, heat, light. We need to work for this which consumes time which I've just mentioned. Pre-packaged meat is handyIt doesn't matter to me whether the slaughter of animals is done by the grace of some some mystical sky being or not, it's still killing a sentient being that doesn't need to be killed.I'm a sentient being, if I got eaten by a tiger would you go all hippy on it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le Stu Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 Perhaps Zapatista will be back. I also like how this thread has been rolling, despite the scrappy start.I like the point Hobo made that traditional people, our ancestors, the original hunter-gatherers, see no wrong in eating meat. On the flip-side of that point, is there or has there been any traditional/ancient vegan culture? The strictest tradition I can think of offhand would be Jainism, where I understand the monks, adherents or whatever you refer to them as even wear masks and sweep the ground before themselves so as not to cause harm to insects. I'm not sure if they're completely vegan though.Even Tibetan Buddhists aren't traditionally vegetarian but I could see how that would be particularly difficult, what with them being a high altitude dwelling grassland people. It's been a neat trick of ours, using ruminants to digest food that we ourselves cannot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bletheringvegan Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 We don't have to but it is more natural to eat meatWhy? So they could get nutrients plants couldn't provide them with!You are quite right and as I stated earlier I believe we eat far too much meat today. There is no necessity to kill that many animals however it is very necessary to farm animals as it is crops to feed a consistently growing population.The majority of meat that goes goes down my gullet is pre-packaged, i'm not always happy about this but due to time constraints and licences/permits I cannot always get things my way.I do on occasion go out for rabbit, fish, crab, shrimp, pidgeon, snails but only when I have enough time - which is not often - as would be the case for most people.As humanity evolved we have lost some of the time which would otherwise have been used for hunting and gathering. Money is the root of it all because we need money to pay for shelter, heat, light. We need to work for this which consumes time which I've just mentioned. Pre-packaged meat is handyI'm a sentient being, if I got eaten by a tiger would you go all hippy on it?I have stated so many times in this thread that you can live perfectly fine on a plant-based diet, which is backed up by all major dietetic associations, so any argument you have regarding meat and its supposed nutritional qualities doesn't really hold.If you are concerned about a consistently growing population then we should STOP eating meat because a high percentage of the land we could grow plant based crops on for feeding people is used for grazing or growing plants for animal feed.If you were stupid enough to be near a tiger and harass it enough for it to eat you then I might laugh, but I am no stinky fucking hippy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scootray Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 Meat has always been a food source, like potatoes, barley, etc so what is the need to stop? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Gold Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 I was a vegetarian for four years because i couldn't stomach meat, when i managed to eat meat again i saw pigs being slaughtered on a family farm, could never eat red meat after that, so now i just keep my head far out of it as i can before i end up vegetarian again.You've completely lost me there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scootray Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 You've completely lost me there.+1o_O?( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bletheringvegan Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 Perhaps Zapatista will be back. I also like how this thread has been rolling, despite the scrappy start.I like the point Hobo made that traditional people, our ancestors, the original hunter-gatherers, see no wrong in eating meat. On the flip-side of that point, is there or has there been any traditional/ancient vegan culture? The strictest tradition I can think of offhand would be Jainism, where I understand the monks, adherents or whatever you refer to them as even wear masks and sweep the ground before themselves so as not to cause harm to insects. I'm not sure if they're completely vegan though.Even Tibetan Buddhists aren't traditionally vegetarian but I could see how that would be particularly difficult, what with them being a high altitude dwelling grassland people. It's been a neat trick of ours, using ruminants to digest food that we ourselves cannot.Although I find historical diets very interesting, I don't see it as a logical basis for our current diets. The reason they ate animal flesh was completely different from the reasons we do. Besides there are a lot of traditions in history that we shouldn't be proud of and definetely shouldn't replicate today...I'm not sure about traditional vegan cultures apart from the ones you have mentioned, might actually give that a bit of research, would be interesting to find out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bletheringvegan Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 +1o_O?(+2 ?(o_O Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le Stu Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 Although I find historical diets very interesting, I don't see it as a logical basis for our current diets. The reason they ate animal flesh was completely different from the reasons we do. Besides there are a lot of traditions in history that we shouldn't be proud of and definetely shouldn't replicate today...I'm not sure about traditional vegan cultures apart from the ones you have mentioned, might actually give that a bit of research, would be interesting to find out!Personally, I put more faith in evidence of centuries or millennia of the particular dietary habits of my specific ancestors than any reassurance modern science gives me, mainly because I've seen about turns on dietary advise based on changing science in my own time. However, if there was at least some evidence of multi generational vegan culture then I might be more convinced that the diet was acceptable for humans.I think you mentioned the China Project earlier? I've read about that and it's certainly interesting. However, I am not Asian and my Northern European ancestry means my digestion deals with certain things better or worse than they do. For example I can drink lots of milk without issue, which is a racial characteristic of Northern Europeans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Le Stu Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 +1o_O?(+2 ?(o_O-3Just for shits and giggles lads, I don't know what he meant either. Did one of you try to use phenomenology on him earlier? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alkaline Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 Good argument!Why's it not a good argument? We live in a democratic society and things are usually done by majority votes. I'm pretty sure the omnivores in our society vastly outweigh the herbivores in numbers. That's a majority. The majority of people aren't opposed to eating meat. I'm one of that majority through personal choice. Do you really need to have everything explained to you by default?Just because a million people think something is right doesn't make it so. Millions of people didn't see human slavery as illogical Did that make it morally defensible?It also doesn't make it automatically wrong either. Farming animals for food is nothing like slavery so i wish people would stop using that as an analogy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paranoid Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 You've completely lost me there.Me too, pork isn't red meat...o_O Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Gold Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 All i'm saying is i can eat poultry and that's about it, because I've never looked into how they're killed, everything else just makes me sick. end of.So... why are you hating on the vegan who pretty much shares your view?Also, it's only a matter of time now before someone points out in this thread telling you how chickens are slaughtered. You may wish to ignore any future posts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ca_gere Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 All I'm saying is give peas a chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hog Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 I can't believe how many "vegetarians" eat fish.I despise animal cruelty but I don't think that the majority of cows are killed inhumanely in the UK.Flies are killed every day by cars, are they less important? Ok, tounge in cheek but only sort of.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fatboy Posted August 25, 2009 Report Share Posted August 25, 2009 I can't believe how many "vegetarians" eat fish.fish dont change their expressions at all, so when they are caught and killed they look happy as larry, which makes it ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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