Aberdeen pub goers to be drug tested

[lepeep]

"Everyone has an agenda, especially scientists."

that is a disappointing statement...isn't it.

I'd like to think that Scientists follow "the science" - and therefore have no agenda, other than to report their findings. It's the people that get the data that have the agenda.

there are indeed "some" scientists that might be swayed to edit / manipulate their data (or even experiments) because of funding streams etc...but I'd imagine that they'd get found out pretty quick in the scientific community and be ousted pretty quick.

[Flash@TMB]

But you're a self-proclaimed anarchist, so of course you'd say that about anyone perceived to have authority

That's not how real anarchism works, but granted your sentiment would be accurate if it was applied to the punk rock concept of anarchism.

We can beg to differ on how accurate the EMIT test is. But we are agreed that the testing itself - however *AHEM* good intentioned - is taking our society in a very dangerous direction.

If anyone here has read how the Third Reich developed over time, it was by slowly bending the rules then redrawing the line in the sand inch by MF inch over a good many years. Or if that sounds pessimistic and over dramatic then we may prefer to say:

"while everyone knows that the road to hell is paved with good intentions - be sure to remember that this was also laid one slab at a time."

[Flash@TMB]

"Everyone has an agenda, especially scientists."

that is a disappointing statement...isn't it.

I'd like to think that Scientists follow "the science" - and therefore have no agenda, other than to report their findings. It's the people that get the data that have the agenda.

there are indeed "some" scientists that might be swayed to edit / manipulate their data (or even experiments) because of funding streams etc...but I'd imagine that they'd get found out pretty quick in the scientific community and be ousted pretty quick.

*FALLS OFF CHAIR LAUGHING*

Yeah um right hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah!!!

It always amuses me how the followers of science blank out the fact that it's internal psychology operates in identical fashion to every other form of organised religion. Science is the faith of no God based on the (flawed) principle of general demonstrability.

But hey, just out of interest, can any scientists out there please advise whether eggs are good/bad for us today/this year???

[nullmouse]

*FALLS OFF CHAIR LAUGHING*

Yeah um right hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah!!!

It always amuses me how the followers of science blank out the fact that it's internal psychology operates in identical fashion to every other form of organised religion. Science is the faith of no God based on the (flawed) principle of general demonstrability.

Primordial Blog: Not the Old "Science is Just a Religion" Argument Again...

Anyway, that's a whole other kettle of fish and would take this thread waaaaay off tangent.

[DJ Jo-D]

back to thread.....was anyone tested at the weekend?? Without me reading the whole thread can anyone give me a heads-up on whats happens if you are tested posative - I was in Amsterdam last weekend which would be legal there to smoke but now here?

[Pierre Von Mondragon]

Well done Flash for raising the False Positives issue, especially regarding poppy seed/opiate tests, and Weed/other legal meds. There are no swift reliable tests for most prohibited substances, all reliable tests take time and resources, and even they can be prone to false results. This whole issue encapsulates the spirit of the government/civil service programme of increased citizen (sorry, I mean subject) surveillance, in the name of safety, but for increased social control. There are severely dangerous authoritarian currents in our society today, which must be resisted at every turn, and shown for the threat to our liberties that they are. This one is particularly insane though.

I'll test their fuckin machine though, and give it a smouldering silicon stroke with my saturated cells.

If being refused entry somewhere, give them your best smile, and wish them a happy credit crunch.

[Bigsby]

back to thread.....was anyone tested at the weekend?? Without me reading the whole thread can anyone give me a heads-up on whats happens if you are tested posative - I was in Amsterdam last weekend which would be legal there to smoke but now here?

http://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/Article.aspx/918471?UserKey=

Seems a couple of people were searched then charged after getting a positive reading.

[scottyboy]

Why the hell would someone actually agree to take the test while carrying drugs?

[soundian]

I assume they were only doing swabbed samples on the street, so let's assume a false positive rate of 1%...

According to BBC NEWS | Scotland | North East/N Isles | Revellers tested by drugs machine 753 people were tested, 13 people were searched and 2 reported to the Procurator Fiscal.

We could assume that between 7 - 8 of those were false positives. Would be interesting to know if any of the two that were actually arrested were found to be holding despite getting a false positive.

So in layman's terms that means there's a fair chance that over half the people searched had no connection with illegal drugs but still had to submit to a search.

I would call that a basic violation of human rights myself, and I agree with Flash that it's one small step down a very dangerous road. What's next, forcing people who have failed this test to sew badges on their clothes?

[Flash@TMB]

Drug-detector trial hailed success - Press & Journal

Seems a couple of people were searched then charged after getting a positive reading.

Chairman of the police board Martin Greig said licensed premises should help pay the cost of buying the devices, which are priced around 25,000.

He said: We all share responsibility in improving safety in the city centre and this includes the private sector. This device is a useful crime-fighting tool so any way of securing funding for it should be looked into.

A total of 753 people were tested on Friday and Saturday nights outside nine venues, which volunteered to take part. No individuals asked to take the test refused.

Police said the device found that a 26-year-old man and a 22-year-old woman were in possession of class A drugs and both have been reported to the procurator fiscal.

***

So this basically proves that 0.2656% of the population are retards.

Now let's multiply the 300 odd licensed premises (googling pedants to provide exact figure) by 25K per pop... and we get WOW 7.5M(ish). This will be necessary otherwise the criminals will just go to the pubs that don't have the machine present that night DOH!

Now let's look at the likely presence of retards in our general population, that means taking the 250K people that live here (pendants?) then break it down into the pub and club going demographic which probably equates to around 100K people worth of foot fall over 1 year and we would apprehend... dun DUN DUN 256 and a 1/2 whole idiots at a cost of 29,228 per dimwit.

Of course this assumes that the idiots would not catch on after the P&J reports the stats every Monday morning. The real cost could be as high as 250K per idiot carrying E to the street value of 10.

Of course if we installed the machines in every off license then that might help... oh but then people would go to the supermarket to buy booze, so we'd have to put them there too. Now if we kitted them out in every petrol station we could catch drug drivers. Fuck it why not just install one at the end of every street???

[nullmouse]

So in layman's terms that means there's a fair chance that over half the people searched had no connection with illegal drugs but still had to submit to a search.

I would call that a basic violation of human rights myself, and I agree with Flash that it's one small step down a very dangerous road. What's next, forcing people who have failed this test to sew badges on their clothes?

Just to be absolutely clear, yet again, I also agree that it is an obscene violation of human rights.

[scottyboy]

Yeah I agree, they went through several hundred innocent people to catch two idiots (and it doesn't say whether it was a 'personal use' amount or whether they were clearly dealers; if it's the former it's even more ridiculous). What a waste of fucking time and money.

I also can't believe that not one of those several hundred people refused to be tested. Are people really that comfortable with having their human rights abused and allowing insanely authoritarian policies to be so easily implemented? The clientele of Liquid et al must be even more brain dead than I thought.

[AKA the brando]

if they wanted to really catch folk with drugs then surely instead of warning them, they just go into pubs/clubs grab a handfull of folk and search them, easy!!! and cheaper.

[scottyboy]

if they wanted to really catch folk with drugs then surely instead of warning them, they just go into pubs/clubs grab a handfull of folk and search them, easy!!! and cheaper.

No, because they'd have to go in and search hundreds of people, if the above figures are anything to go by.

[AKA the brando]

if they had any sense, they could easy go in a pub pick a likely looking table of folk and find at least half of them with a stash.

[Scootray]

Yeah I agree, they went through several hundred innocent people to catch two idiots (and it doesn't say whether it was a 'personal use' amount or whether they were clearly dealers; if it's the former it's even more ridiculous). What a waste of fucking time and money.

I also can't believe that not one of those several hundred people refused to be tested. Are people really that comfortable with having their human rights abused and allowing insanely authoritarian policies to be so easily implemented? The clientele of Liquid et al must be even more brain dead than I thought.

I can't imagine many folk being tested were really thinking about their human rights at the time. It probably just seems easier for them to agree to the test so they don't have to bother with the hassle of finding another club to queue up for.

But to test 750 folk and to only find 2 folk carrying drugs suggests that this really is a waste of time and money.

However, if this had already been trialled, then when and where? And what exactly were the figures for that which suggested this would even be a worthwhile exercise?!

[scottyboy]

if they had any sense, they could easy go in a pub pick a likely looking table of folk and find at least half of them with a stash.

Uh, but again, 2 people out of 700+... this is a very big pub and table of 3 you're talking about? Also, what constitutes a 'likely looking table of folk' is pretty controversial. Finally, I'm fairly confident (then again I would never have believed the rest of the shit I'm reading about in this thread) that they could just refuse to be searched and that the police cannot search them because they 'look likely'.

[nullmouse]

Well done Flash for raising the False Positives issue, especially regarding poppy seed/opiate tests, and Weed/other legal meds. There are no swift reliable tests for most prohibited substances, all reliable tests take time and resources, and even they can be prone to false results.

Yar, it's important to remember that *any* form of screening suffers from the same flaws - Not just this crack-down on drugs thing.

Of course, everyone's concerned for the legal, law-abiding citizen who doesn't touch any illegal drugs who might get branded a criminal due to a flase positive. People who use the flaws to try and cheat the system play a dangerous game, which is why I thought it worth perservering with a discussion on how big or small those False Positive Rates actually are. From either persepective, there's plenty of reason to hate this new initiative...

[SeaOfEnergy]

This is a heap of shit, if they want to stop trouble in town at night, ban alcohol, i guarantee it causes more problems than all the drugs put together....(im not talking about crack and smack here, obviously if someones stupid enough to do either of these their probably trouble)

when are the authorities gona wise up?

[soundian]

Now let's multiply the 300 odd licensed premises (googling pedants to provide exact figure) by 25K per pop... and we get WOW 7.5M(ish). This will be necessary otherwise the criminals will just go to the pubs that don't have the machine present that night DOH!

You forgot to add the cost of staffing, training, maintenance, repair, regular calibration etc to get these things working.

Staffing would be a big cost, especially if door staff don't have the powers to search and hold someone. (Do they?).

And of course there's the 2% drop in turnover (1% for false positives and 1% for their spouses/partners/friends who also don't enter the premises).

Mmm, I can see most of Aberdeen's pub owners being delighted at the thought of forking out money to reduce their income and increase their costs.

(That's not to mention all the other costs of false positives, e.g. someone gets a false positive on a works night out gets repeatedly passed by for promotion or laid off cos the boss thinks they might be doing drugs)

[Sam 45]

I got tested outside Soul on Saturday night. Apparently the machines test the sweat in the palm of the hand, not any substance that has been in connection with the hand.

[nullmouse]

And of course there's the 2% drop in turnover (1% for false positives and 1% for their spouses/partners/friends who also don't enter the premises).

I think there'd be that drop at least, if not substantially more, from people not going to places that screen on principal.

[nullmouse]

I got tested outside Soul on Saturday night. Apparently the machines test the sweat in the palm of the hand, not any substance that has been in connection with the hand.

Did they ask if you were on any existing medication, or did they give you any more information about the test they were doing?

[lepeep]

Chairman of the police board Martin Greig said licensed premises should help pay the cost of buying the devices, which are priced around 25,000.

He said: We all share responsibility in improving safety in the city centre and this includes the private sector. This device is a useful crime-fighting tool so any way of securing funding for it should be looked into.

A total of 753 people were tested on Friday and Saturday nights outside nine venues, which volunteered to take part. No individuals asked to take the test refused.

Police said the device found that a 26-year-old man and a 22-year-old woman were in possession of class A drugs and both have been reported to the procurator fiscal.

***

So this basically proves that 0.2656% of the population are retards.

Now let's multiply the 300 odd licensed premises (googling pedants to provide exact figure) by 25K per pop... and we get WOW 7.5M(ish). This will be necessary otherwise the criminals will just go to the pubs that don't have the machine present that night DOH!

Now let's look at the likely presence of retards in our general population, that means taking the 250K people that live here (pendants?) then break it down into the pub and club going demographic which probably equates to around 100K people worth of foot fall over 1 year and we would apprehend... dun DUN DUN 256 and a 1/2 whole idiots at a cost of 29,228 per dimwit.

Of course this assumes that the idiots would not catch on after the P&J reports the stats every Monday morning. The real cost could be as high as 250K per idiot carrying E to the street value of 10.

Of course if we installed the machines in every off license then that might help... oh but then people would go to the supermarket to buy booze, so we'd have to put them there too. Now if we kitted them out in every petrol station we could catch drug drivers. Fuck it why not just install one at the end of every street???

why are you wasting the energy in your fingers to type all that?

we all agree, it's a load of shite.

testing for drugs...in a pub?

"remember folks, drink, it's not a drug, it's a drink"

I wonder if they'll bother taking the machine out at the end of the night, when all the tanked up cunts are smashing glasses off people's heads and kicking in homeless people...or will they deduce "drink fuelled violence"

[Sam 45]

Did they ask if you were on any existing medication, or did they give you any more information about the test they were doing?

Nah they didn't ask about medication. Just said they were checking for substance abuse or something. Can't remember how they worded it exactly but the machine takes a fair while to process. Installing them would definately produce huge queues outside bars. This would probably lead to more violence and hostility.