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The privacy debate


The Milner
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Not sure how many would be aware of this story, id assume a lot of you,

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-27216500

 

My point with this thread is, do you think its fair that a person can be punished for a comment he makes in private, when he thinks there is no one around to hear it apart from him and the person he is having the conversation with?

 

To put it in a way we can relate too, if you dont like your boss and you call him a cunt to his face, your likely to get sacked, we'd all think that is fair, but what if you called him a cunt to someone, when you were in your own home, and a recording of that reached him, and you were sacked, would it still be a fair sacking? 

 

BTW im not sticking up for the guy for what he said, it was clearly wrong, but is it right that he is forced to sell his team, and is banned for life, for saying something in private he never would have said in the public? Or is it right that anyone who makes any claim, be it private or not, gets hammered for it? 

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Has his views affected his judgments up to this point? Has he banned black players from his teams? Underpaid black players in his teams? 

Unless you can directly prove he has been racist towards his team or players, then i dont see that as a justification. Its too loose.

 

But thats kinda getting away from the point, is it fair that a convo he had in private has cost him his team and any further participation in that sport?  

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Depends what you are doing in private. Being crassly racist, yes I think punishment is justified.

 

Actually, the guy has been sued multiple times by black (and Asian, and Hispanic) employees and clients, across multiple businesses, and its not the first time he been in trouble with the NBA because of it either. Even his own players have been protesting.

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Again tho, its getting away from the question. 

 

Do we feel that its fine enough to be recorded without your knowledge and then have that recording used against you? 

 

Again take the example of you hating your boss, is it ok for someone in your home to record you saying you hate your boss, without you knowing, and you then getting sacked for your boss hearing said recording? 

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Not sure how many would be aware of this story, id assume a lot of you,

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-27216500

 

My point with this thread is, do you think its fair that a person can be punished for a comment he makes in private, when he thinks there is no one around to hear it apart from him and the person he is having the conversation with?

 

To put it in a way we can relate too, if you dont like your boss and you call him a cunt to his face, your likely to get sacked, we'd all think that is fair, but what if you called him a cunt to someone, when you were in your own home, and a recording of that reached him, and you were sacked, would it still be a fair sacking? 

 

BTW im not sticking up for the guy for what he said, it was clearly wrong, but is it right that he is forced to sell his team, and is banned for life, for saying something in private he never would have said in the public? Or is it right that anyone who makes any claim, be it private or not, gets hammered for it? 

 

It's a funny one. I think it IS fair to judge someone based on their private comments, but not necessarily fair to act on that judgement... Let's say I was horrendously racist in private, that Needleman spend 60% of our time at practises burning crosses and quoting American History X, out of context, to glorify white supremacy. Now, if that got out, I wouldn't think it unjustified for promoters to stop booking us, because they don't want to associate with us. I'd expect to be blacklisted by just about everyone I work with in the scene because they don't want to associate with a known racist.

 

BUT - I wouldn't expect immediate consequences from my employer (unless offended colleagues raise formal grievances with me or something), because legally they can't sack me for being a cunt, and because I'm not a prominent public figurehead who represents the company in any public fashion. That being said, if I was the guy who's face was on the posters, who everyone pictured when they thought of the company, then legally what I did is harmful to them and they can sack me with no recourse.

 

As for the recording - I don't think it's ethical, but it's not wrong. If I were to be at home and say "man, I'd love to kill a bunch of kids with a hammer" and then a bunch of kids were killed with a hammer... If I was recorded without my knowledge, I wouldn't expect that to be admissible legal evidence.. but if the recording was to become publicly available, I guess I'd just have to live with the fact that a bunch of people now think I'm a would-be child-hammer-killer. We now live in an age when anything you say or do could very easily become available for public consumption, and the public at large generally LOVE being able to see the recordings, decide you're a piece of shit and hate you forever for it.

 

xx

 

EDIT: Fuck, xkcd already said what I'm trying to say, better. And maybe not "fair" to judge someone.. but it's justifiable.

Edited by Stroopy121
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Again tho, its getting away from the question. 

 

Do we feel that its fine enough to be recorded without your knowledge and then have that recording used against you? 

 

Again take the example of you hating your boss, is it ok for someone in your home to record you saying you hate your boss, without you knowing, and you then getting sacked for your boss hearing said recording? 

 

Not really an equal comparison though is it.

 

Imagine you worked for google and you get recorded calling your boss something racist and it makes it into the public domain.

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So your of the opinion that anything you say at any point is fair game to be used against you in life? 

 

Let's switch it around - let's say you happen across a video of your boss killing kids with a hammer.. and you take it to the police, to your boss's boss, etc, and they all say that they can't do anything because it was him acting in private, being filmed without his knowledge...? Maybe not a fair comparison, given that example is a crime... But let's say your boss is videoed saying that YOU are a cunt, and that he's desperate for an excuse to sack you. Should you be able to use that footage to defend yourself?

 

xx

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oooh good one!

 

I would have to sit on the fence and say it depends on who and what they are comments are.

 

Milner, you have added a link to a man who it seems has a history of racist remarks etc. Therefore people are going to say it's about time that he paid for it. Whether the penalty over the top could be a different debate. For me, probably yes it is over the top a little. A very hefty fine and several years ban might have been enough. at the end of the day he should be a Role Model for others.

 

Now, if it was some group of people getting together to commit a crime such as plant a bomb etc to kill innocent people, then the penalty should be as much as the courts can give....the harsher the better.

 

What if it was a group of friends getting together for a beer and started making comments about someone not in their company...well I really don't see much of a problem with that and I'm sure if we were honest with ourselves then we would agree that we have all done that at sometime in our lives.

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I think that Sterling said these things, he deserves everything that's happened and he's a cunt.

But I did notice that there's an allegation that the woman that released the tape was in the process of being sued by his family for fraud which does make me wonder about the ethics exposing people for revenge. It's also worth pointing out that he has been sued before, and alleged racist comments have been a factor in those cases as well. And he was due to receieve the NAACP lifetime award (for the 2nd time) which is not usually handed out to racists.

It does seem to me that these situations are usually more complicated and that knee jerk reactions are not the best way forward - but fuck it, racism is bad and people shouldn't do it.

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Not sure how many would be aware of this story, id assume a lot of you,

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-27216500

 

My point with this thread is, do you think its fair that a person can be punished for a comment he makes in private, when he thinks there is no one around to hear it apart from him and the person he is having the conversation with?

 

To put it in a way we can relate too, if you dont like your boss and you call him a cunt to his face, your likely to get sacked, we'd all think that is fair, but what if you called him a cunt to someone, when you were in your own home, and a recording of that reached him, and you were sacked, would it still be a fair sacking? 

 

BTW im not sticking up for the guy for what he said, it was clearly wrong, but is it right that he is forced to sell his team, and is banned for life, for saying something in private he never would have said in the public? Or is it right that anyone who makes any claim, be it private or not, gets hammered for it? 

I abhore baited secret recording, but if you're racist in private, you're still racist.

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Terrible comparison Milner. Calling a single person a cunt is a very different kettle of fish from having a grudge against an entire race/anyone that isn't a well heeled white person. And having a problem with evidence is weird... we're not talking about a potentially grey area like entrapment here.

It would be nice if more companies were so eager to avoid being associated with people who are backwards morons.

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Im not denying the guy is racist, not at all. The fact his comments were in private proves beyond doubt he is tbh. I only really used that story as it was the one i was reading at the time and it kinda brought the question into my head.

 

I can think of a number of occasions i have said things in private that wouldnt come out in public, i cant imagine im alone, so it just brought the question of,  at what point are we allowed to be private with our views and have that privacy kept? 

 

Yes if you murder someone and someone catches you on tape confessing, id agree, they should be prosecuted, but where is the line drawn? At what point should i be comfortable enough to say what i want in private and be confident it wont come back to haunt me? 

 

It also brought the point into my head, that we are right now, as an entire world, angry about our privacy not being kept by the government, yet we are delighted that this persons privacy was blown, so he could ousted as a racist, by his ex, who has a law suit out on him. I just find that a bit odd. 

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Terrible comparison Milner. Calling a single person a cunt is a very different kettle of fish from having a grudge against an entire race/anyone that isn't a well heeled white person. And having a problem with evidence is weird... we're not talking about a potentially grey area like entrapment here.

It would be nice if more companies were so eager to avoid being associated with people who are backwards morons.

 

Again ill say, my point wasnt really just connected to this case, and its certainly not restricted to racist views, it just so happened this is a hot story relating too it. 

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Let's switch it around - let's say you happen across a video of your boss killing kids with a hammer.. and you take it to the police, to your boss's boss, etc, and they all say that they can't do anything because it was him acting in private, being filmed without his knowledge...? Maybe not a fair comparison, given that example is a crime... But let's say your boss is videoed saying that YOU are a cunt, and that he's desperate for an excuse to sack you. Should you be able to use that footage to defend yourself?

 

xx

 

 

Good questions!

The main difference to what your saying is that killing is a crime, if you film someone committing a crime then you need to pass that over, but this situation is not exactly a crime, its a view, a very outdated and racist view, but forgive me if im wrong here, but he wont get a criminal prosecution over this, his comments themselves were not illegal, they just dont fit with modern society. 

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Im against people not being able to have private conversations about things that are not illegal, without said conversations making it into public. 

 

I cant imagine anyone who would be happy to have their privacy completely taken away from them, just so assholes can be ousted from time to time. 

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I suppose it's quite similar to Gray and Keys getting the boot from Sky, after being recorded (unbeknownst to them) talking about "smashing it" and the like, and the other instance of taking the piss out of the female referees assistant. Whilst they weren't aware of the recording, their conversations were still made in a professional capacity, and was very closely related to their job, being football pundits and all.

 

Clearly, neither of them have learned, as there have been further instances of both them being generally awful human beings since departing from Sky, so in all, it was probably the right decision to rid the company of them and their reputations. I think that is transferable to the Sterling situation. The Clippers and the NBA won't want to be associated with that. What he said was said in what he believed was privacy. It doesn't change the severity of what he said, and how it impacts his profession.

 

That said, I'm not really in favour of the invasion of privacy. Snitches get stitches, and all that, even if it often does have the correct end result, of outing arseholes into the public domain. Like Sterling, and Keys&Gray.

 

That was a very long winded way of saying nothing at all.

Edited by Joda Serk
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I think it's a good question Milner. In this case after the event it exists in the public domain and so there will be consequences. 

 

I actually say horrendous things to myself in my flat and particularly in my car because I like the way they sound. I'd be disappointed if I lost my job over that but I might review my behaviour in light of this. 

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