Old Roolz for Bands thread, retained for posterity

[Flash@TMB]

The purpose of this information is to ensure that gigs are rewarding for bands, their fans, The Moorings Bar, and our customers.

We host gigs because we love live music. However the extra costs involved in doing so more than chew up any increase in sales, something that is probably true for most venues. Please appreciate that we are effectively working for free, and would appreciate a reasonably smooth ride

Instruments & Equipment

All the larger pieces of equipment should be delivered to the bar no later than 7.30pm. Bands should unload all their instruments and equipment into our cellar on arrival, until such time it is required on stage. Bands do not get access the stage until the sound engineer is ready for them. All equipment should be removed from stage between bands and returned to the cellar, otherwise the stage becomes crowded, and equipment may be damaged or go missing.

The house has instuments available in case of any malfunctions including broken strings. Please take time to tune a house guitar in advance, so that it is ready should you break a string mid-performance. We will change broken strings during your performance and (try to) retune your guitar accordingly.

Performance Times

Bands are typically allocated a 1 hour slot that is inclusive of all setup and pack away time. There is no requirement for a soundcheck but we do perform a quick line & level check just prior to each performance. The exception is where the band has an item of equipment that's likely to prove problematic - under those circumstances please contact us in advance to discuss. Performances usually start between 8pm and 9pm depending on the number of bands. Live music must cease by 0045am, and power to the stage is cut at 0100.

Backline

Bands are urged to contact me in advance in order to discuss the rest of their backline requirements, OTHERWISE THE FOLLOWING DEFAULTS WILL APPLY:

Bands are expected to use the house drum kit, because there is insufficient time to dismantle and erect drumkits between performances. Bands are also expected to use the house Ampeg bass amp and 4x10" cab, this has a valve preamp stage meaning that we get valve sound through our DI. If there is a powerful reason for using your own bass amp, then please contact me to discuss this in advance of the gig. Bands are encouraged to use the house Marshall 4x12" angle cabs which are routed through Marshall Powerbrakes.

Swapping elements of the backline between performances reduces the actual time available for performing.

Drums

The house kit is maintained in good working order, regularily treated to new skins, and benefits from a weekly tune up. Every gig we further refine how the house it's sound is processed through our PA so we tend to get a better sound from the house kit.

The house drumkit includes double kick pedal, snare, cymbals, hats... pretty much everything. You are welcome to use all those components. Most drummers take along their own hats, cymbals and additional cymbals (+stands). We reserve the right to veto the use of any hats/cymbals that are cracked, worn out, or of exceptionally poor quality. We anticipate that most drummers will want to take along their own snare drum.

Bass

The bass is direct injected into the mixing desk and where possible blended with a feed from the AKG D112 bass cab mic. This house amp is an Ampeg SVT250Pro which is 400W with with a 4x10"cab. It sports both valve preamp and output stages. Bass can also be heard and felt through the floor of the stage as this is sited over the FOH bass bins. The bass sound will also be directed through the sub woofer of the drum monitor since the drummer is sighted slightly behind the bass amp. This also helps transmit bass to the far side of the stage.

Guitars

The house has three Marshall Powerbrakes which are utilised to drive the valves at the appropriate level whilst keeping the volume under control.

Each speaker cab is mic'd up in order to drive the sound to the rear of the room via the PA system. The PA offers perfect sound reproduction.

We will not entertain the use of a malfunctioning amp or speaker. Our goal is to provide optimum sound quality regardless of badge engineering/brand/product placement considerations. We get the blame when it doesn't sound right, so we must insist that everything works!

The guitars are routed through all monitors.

The house has two Marshall 4x12" angle cabs, a Marshall DSL 100W head, an Engel Powerball 100W head, and a Marshall 1x12" 100W Combo.

Keyboards

We will usually direct inject any keyboard and route them to all monitors.

Other Instruments

Accoustic instruments should be preconfigured for amplification. This usually necessitates a suitable mic, coil pickup, feedback destroyer, or cap. This is especially ture of banjos (AKA the microphone with strings) and mandolins.

Bagpipes, harmonicas and horns rarely present any problems, whistles are usually OK. We can also route these through amps and speakers should that be required.

It may be necessary to soundcheck certain instruments in advance, so please contact us beforehand to arrange this.

Vocals

The house mics are EQ'd into the vocal monitors. For the best results all the house mics are of the same type. There is a choice of SM57 or SM58s. The use of alternative mics are discouraged as this is likely to lower the threshold at which feedback occurs. The mic leads reach for 10m, and it is permissable for the vocals to be performed out in front of the stage because the mics will not feedback. A Shure radio mic will also work fine.

We will endeavor to patch vocal FX throught the monitors.

Everyone

Please resist the temptation to play your instument when the sound engineers head is next to the speaker or drum involved as this will only make him deaf and impact badly on the sound of your performance. <--- not a joke!

On a serious note it IS worth contacting me in advance to discuss your specific requirements. This post is only a set of standard guidelines - we are prepared to be flexible... consider this the going in position

Let us know how you want to sound and we'll do our best to match it.

If you consider these guidelines to be unreasonable, then that would indicate that The Moorings Bar is not a suitable venue for your band to play.

Comments

Any comments or advice are welcome, this post is regularily revised as people suggest alternative approaches.

[Sue Denim..]

And also ensure that all vocalists sing within the frequency of 300hz - 3Khz otherwise those in the audience will not hear you. (Unless you are a bat or something)

Sue

[Guest stuartmaxwell]

i dont mind sitting through a soundcheck, me and my friend did a few weeks ago

but i really think that you should speed things up a bit, there was so much fannying about in the soundcheck we watched, (the aubl gig)

if you are losing customers during soundcheck get the bands to pull their fingers out and act a bit more professionally, i also thought that the pa sounded really guff in that particular soundcheck!might have been better when there were more people in the venue, but the low frequencies were non existant and so were the snares

[Flash@TMB]

i dont mind sitting through a soundcheck' date=' me and my friend did a few weeks ago but i really think that you should speed things up a bit, there was so much fannying about in the soundcheck we watched, (the aubl gig)

if you are losing customers during soundcheck get the bands to pull their fingers out and act a bit more professionally[/quote']

We usually manage 4 bands in 2 hours. There's a 15 minute changeover between bands so that typically leaves 15-20 mins to soundcheck each band. The monitors have been causing us problems due to their relatively poor quality, meaning I can't apply as much volume as the bands would like. Last Saturday I hired in some new very high quality ones to try out, and plan to do the same again this weekend with even better ones. Ultimately we'll buy whichever ones work out the best. This will make life much easier for everyone as well as ensuring that we remain broke for another year.

i also thought that the pa sounded really guff in that particular soundcheck!might have been better when there were more people in the venue' date=' but the low frequencies were non existant and so were the snares[/quote']

Yes EXACTLY!

But err that's the point of a soundcheck... like to err to CHECK the SOUND. I welcome any criticism of gigs - but soundchecks???

If it sounded perfect at souncheck then all you'd hear during the gig is low frequencies (unless nobody showed up). Part of my job is to compensate for the difference that 150 bodies are going to make to the sound. I guess another option is to order a lorry load of cadavers to simulate this but it's probably easier on the nose to just trust mu judegment

The sound checks last Saturday went even worse (much worse) but the resulting sound during the gig was close to what I was aiming for although I believe I can still improve on it. On Sunday the sound was even better.

[Frosty Jack]

Part of my job is to compensate for the difference that 150 bodies are going to make to the sound. I guess another option is to order a lorry load of cadavers to simulate this but it's probably easier on the nose to just trust mu judegment

The main concert hall in the Sydney Opera House is fully furnished and lined with specially imported Pine. This particular wood was chosen as it has exactly the same density as the human body, therefore the acoustics are almost the same whether it is full or not. It has the second best acoustics in the world.

FROSTYFACT.

[Guest stuartmaxwell]

i wasnt criticising, i was just pointing out

i was just peeved that bands were taking 20 mins of playing the same chord and tuning!!?

[Flash@TMB]

i wasnt criticising' date=' i was just pointing out

i was just peeved that bands were taking 20 mins of playing the same chord and tuning!!?[/quote']

Yeah they all do that. Just get up on stage and start making noise without regard for anyone else in the bar. I guess they're trying to perfect their sound. I've given up getting stressed out about it.

[Flash@TMB]

The main concert hall in the Sydney Opera House is fully furnished and lined with specially imported Pine. This particular wood was chosen as it has exactly the same density as the human body' date=' therefore the acoustics are almost the same whether it is full or not. It has the second best acoustics in the world.

FROSTYFACT.[/quote']

LET ME STATE THIS QUITE CLEARLY... THE ANSWER IS NO. NO FUCKIN WAY. WE JUST FINISHED REDECORATING FOR CHRISTS SAKE.

BTW Where has the best accoustics in the world? Don't say Claire's Bar.

[Guest stuartmaxwell]

they have a feckin bedroom and a sound engineer to perfect their sound !!!!

[imprinted]

I think flash is the sound engineer?

(could be wrong - only been to one gig there (real shocks and cuts were playing))

[Ewan U.N.C.L.E.]

haha, if only all guitarists played keyboard instead. The world would be a much less stressful and better souding place (the moorings at least)

1x12's rule

[Chris]

BTW Where has the best accoustics in the world? Don't say Claire's Bar.

I had a job interview there once. They never phoned me back. Bastards.

Frosty obviously wants to tell us where has the best acoustics, or he wouldn't have said the sydney opera house was only the second best.

[GraemeC]

I have roadied/stage managed/tour managed bands for 35 years and have never come across such a piece of nonsense as that list of rules....

To insist that the headline band leave their DW or Mapex kit in the back of the van and use the house kit is simply mad, demanding the use of one kit is fine but to assume that "you're kit" is in some way better than anything someone else brings along is odd to say the least.

As for the bass amp, to claim it is only a stage monitor is nieve in the extreme, if its at a volume that the bass player can hear over the kit them I assure you it will be heard out front also, and if what you claim were true then companies like Eden, Ampeg and Messa Boogie would go out of business pretty quick as bass players reverted to playing through any old shit.

My favourite one is the advise to disconnect three of the speakers in 4x12 cab....I have never heard such shite as this.....my god are you some kind of control freak?

You claim to want the bands gig to be rewarding at The Moorings and the first thing you do is enforce a set of draconian rules designed to piss off the average band member big style...in my experience bands are tough enough to keep happy at the best of times and laying this shit on them is not going to make for their best performance.....I doubt the Nazi party had that many rules.

G...

[Pete]

I must say, I agree with Big G. Fair doos I've only EVER been in the Moorings once and it wasn't during a gig but that's not really the point.

On the drums, takes an hour to erect?! I mean, if it your house kit, surely you know exactly where the 'points' are, don't you?! If you INSIST on using that for EVERY gig then why not just leave it set up all that time?!

On guitar amps, I'd be fucked if I was to spend several hundred pounds on an amp to then let any Tom Dick or Harry to use it, so I can't see that being very popular...

[GraemeC]

We usually manage 4 bands in 2 hours. There's a 15 minute changeover between bands so that typically leaves 15-20 mins to soundcheck each band. The monitors have been causing us problems due to their relatively poor quality' date=' meaning I can't apply as much volume as the bands would like. Last Saturday I hired in some new very high quality ones to try out, and plan to do the same again this weekend with even better ones. Ultimately we'll buy whichever ones work out the best. This will make life much easier for everyone as well as ensuring that we remain broke for another year.

Yes EXACTLY!

But err that's the point of a soundcheck... like to err to CHECK the SOUND. I welcome any criticism of gigs - but soundchecks???

If it sounded perfect at souncheck then all you'd hear during the gig is low frequencies (unless nobody showed up). Part of my job is to compensate for the difference that 150 bodies are going to make to the sound. I guess another option is to order a lorry load of cadavers to simulate this but it's probably easier on the nose to just trust mu judegment

The sound checks last Saturday went even worse (much worse) but the resulting sound during the gig was close to what I was aiming for although I believe I can still improve on it. On Sunday the sound was even better.[/quote']

Honestly....no disrespect to the moorings, it was my local for many years, but it is just a pub, and sound quality (although important) does not have to be on a par with an opera house.....its great for young bands to get the chance to play through a decent pa and have some monitors they can hear but look at Drakes for instance, in the early days the bands were pretty much left to get on with it "heres the gear, help yourself" and on the whole it worked just fine, a pub gig is about atmosphere, intimacy, sweat, volume, I would never expect hifi sound and am never disappointed when I don't get it.....

Lighten up, you and the bands will benefit.

G...

[GraemeC]

"The kick drum will be put through the drum monitor as it faces away from the drummer"

You may want to think about that one....and explain it to me further.

G...

[Flash@TMB]

Here's my response to the various points that have been raised.

The house kit IS left permanently setup on the stage, and we do start with the same basic EQ, gate, and compression settings for it each time, although these are continually refined, and the gates and compressors are often adjusted to suit a particular drummer. The more we refine it, the less it seems to need tweaked.

It typically takes at least 2 hours to dismantle the house kit, assemble the bands kit, then after the gig dismantle the bands kit and reassemble the house kit. On top of that it takes at least another hour to EQ in an acceptable sound... although the drummer invariably spends a further hour tuning the kit. So this would incurr an additional 4 hours unpaid work for me every week with zero benefit. In the event I agree to undertake this, it should be considered a bonus NOT an entitlement.

Given that we typically have 4 bands playing each gig, then 3 of those bands will be unable to use their own kits anyway, so why not all 4? Why should one drummer receive special treatment?

The house kit is only likely to sound better because we've had the opportunity to refine the EQ settings for that particular kit over a period of months.

It's difficult for a drummer to hear the kick drum because it's down on the floor and the sound exits the front of the kick drum which faces away from the drummer. That's why we route the kick drum sound to the drummer through a drum monitor that incorporates a subwoofer.

***

The bass from the bass bins easily overpowers the bass from the bass amp. Only the people sited close to the stage front are likely to discern any sound emitting directly from the bass amp. In the event that someone brought along an amp with a unique sound that they believed was essential to their performance then we could use it in place of the house amp provided it had a DI output. This all depends on whether we have amplt time to swap it all around... see below.

***

We're happy for someone to drag a 4x12 onto stage as is, and we'll get an OK sound from it. BUT a 1x12 will sound better in absolute terms (non subjective terms). That's just physics. Dual and quad speaker cabs have phasing issues. More importantly the instrument mic should only be pointed at a single speaker. The best results are obtained by turning the output up quite high on that speaker, facilitating less gain on the mic to obtain the desired signal, and therefore less bleed from other sources (since less gain means reduced sensitivity) resulting in a higher signal to noise ratio. This is nothing new. It's no big deal.

***

With 4 bands in 3 hours we're tight on time to switch over the backline. In the event that a bands sound requires certain equipment, then we endeavor to accomodate it, although that may mean reducing the performance time allocated to that band. Bands usually think to contact us in advance to discuss their requirements, and we figure out how to work around everything.

Were the bar ever to host a relatively 'big name' act, then different rules would apply. Having said that the various signed touring bands that we have hosted have been 'low mantenance' and a joy to work with.

***

I didn't mention any issues with Saxophones electric or otherwise.

***

It's amusing that someone would object to letting another musician plug into their amp, yet expect the bar to hand over the controls to a very expensive rig that they haven't been trained to operate!!!

There's no way we are going back to the 'good old days' of pub rock, although those that no longer get paid hundreds of pounds to play in the bar would undoubtedly be in favour of that. Gone are the days of covers bands dragging in huge backlines with vocal rigs, spending all afternoon driving everyone mad setting it up, then charging us 200-300 quid to play in front of the dozen mates and hangers-on that are left in the bar (who probably saw them the previous night at the bar next door), demanding free drinks, and taking till 5am to pack up their gear. Yeah - I can see why we've managed to piss those people off LOL!!!

[craig deadenstereo]

We're happy for someone to drag a 4x12 onto stage as is' date=' and we'll get an OK sound from it. BUT a 1x12 will sound better in absolute terms (non subjective terms). That's just physics. Dual and quad speaker cabs have phasing issues. More importantly the instrument mic should only be pointed at a single speaker. The best results are obtained by turning the output up quite high on that speaker, facilitating less gain on the mic to obtain the desired signal, and therefore less bleed from other sources (since less gain means reduced sensitivity) resulting in a higher signal to noise ratio. This is nothing new. It's no big deal.

***

[/quote']

The thing about 1x12s is that they are generally open back. 4x12s are closed back, and this does make a big difference to the sound. As for disconnecting speakers in multiple cabs, you're gonna mess around with the wattage it can take, and the impedances - which can lead to fried amps or cones. Plus, with a closed back cab you have to unscrew it and hope it's wired up with spade terminals, else you'd have to get the soldering iron out.

And, as for the phasing issues, the cabs have designers. They are designed to work with their particular drivers to produce a line array effect. Or at least, decent cabs are.

And, amps being a minimum of 100W? I play a 50W valve amp, and it will shred your ears above 3..... Since they're going through the PA anyway, do they really have to be that big (even SS)? 15 or 20W would be alright.

But, this is just generalities. Maybe they guitar rules need re-thought a little.

We're coming up to play in October, and I'll bring up my head and a 1x12 anyway.... 4x12s just don't fit in an Astra with 4 people + gear...

Craig

[GraemeC]

It typically takes at least 2 hours to dismantle the house kit, assemble the bands kit

I'm not a drummer and have not drum teched for years and I bet I could set a kit up in 30mins and strip it in 10.

it takes at least another hour to EQ in an acceptable sound...

acceptable to who for gods sake? its a pub gig, get over yourself.

sound exits the front of the kick drum which faces away from the drummer.

so why is that different from any of the other drums? I think you'll find all the drums are manufactured the same and have the same sound characteristics (I'm beginning to see why it takes you an hour to eq the kit)

More importantly the instrument mic should only be pointed at a single speaker

why? in my experience double miking a 4x12 is very effective.

Were the bar ever to host a relatively 'big name' act, then different rules would apply

you ain't kidding.....this seems a little double-standardish to me and points again to you having control issues....make the local would be's do what they are told ehhh?

There's no way we are going back to the 'good old days' of pub rock, although those that no longer get paid hundreds of pounds to play in the bar would undoubtedly be in favour of that. Gone are the days of covers bands dragging in huge backlines with vocal rigs, spending all afternoon driving everyone mad setting it up, then charging us 200-300 quid to play in front of the dozen mates and hangers-on that are left in the bar (who probably saw them the previous night at the bar next door), demanding free drinks, and taking till 5am to pack up their gear. Yeah - I can see why we've managed to piss those people off LOL!!!

who suggested that?

G...

[Flash@TMB]

The thing about 1x12s is that they are generally open back. 4x12s are closed back' date=' and this does make a big difference to the sound.

[/quote']

Agreed that's a valid point.

As for disconnecting speakers in multiple cabs' date=' you're gonna mess around with the wattage it can take, and the impedances - which can lead to fried amps or cones. Plus, with a closed back cab you have to unscrew it and hope it's wired up with spade terminals, else you'd have to get the soldering iron out.

[/quote']

We wouldn't want anyone to go to that trouble, unless it's designed to have speakers disconnected then it's best left alone. All I was getting at is that if someone has a 1x12 that they're happy to substitute then that's an option worth considering. We're more than happy to work with 4x12s. It's a little scary that people appear to have interpreted the mere suggestion of perhaps a 4x12 aren't the best option as "THE MOORINGS BANS 4x12s" LOL!!! I'll try rewording that section.

And' date=' as for the phasing issues, the cabs have designers. They are designed to work with their particular drivers to produce a line array effect. Or at least, decent cabs are.

[/quote']

Valid point.

And' date=' amps being a minimum of 100W? I play a 50W valve amp, and it will shred your ears above 3..... Since they're going through the PA anyway, do they really have to be that big (even SS)? 15 or 20W would be alright.

[/quote']

People have struggled with 10W transistor amps. The figure is only a guideline, I'll reword that section to read "loud enough to hold it's own" or something similar.

We're coming up to play in October' date=' and I'll bring up my head and a 1x12 anyway.... 4x12s just don't fit in an Astra with 4 people + gear...

[/quote']

We have 1x12 Marshall and Fender Digital FX Combos both rated around 100W, either of those may also suit. You can also slave one of their speakers from your head. I only suggest this to cut down on the amount of gear you have to lug - the choice is yours. Get in touch if you'd like to discuss in more detail prior to the gig.

Thanks for your contribution.

[soundian]

Here's my response to the various points that have been raised.

On top of that it takes at least another hour to EQ in an acceptable sound

It's difficult for a drummer to hear the kick drum because it's down on the floor and the sound exits the front of the kick drum which faces away from the drummer. That's why we route the kick drum sound to the drummer through a drum monitor that incorporates a subwoofer.

***

The bass from the bass bins easily overpowers the bass from the bass amp. Only the people sited close to the stage front are likely to discern any sound emitting directly from the bass amp. In the event that someone brought along an amp with a unique sound that they believed was essential to their performance then we could use it in place of the house amp provided it had a DI output. This all depends on whether we have amplt time to swap it all around... see below.

***

We're happy for someone to drag a 4x12 onto stage as is' date=' and we'll get an OK sound from it. BUT a 1x12 will sound better in absolute terms (non subjective terms). That's just physics. Dual and quad speaker cabs have phasing issues. More importantly the instrument mic should only be pointed at a single speaker. The best results are obtained by turning the output up quite high on that speaker, facilitating less gain on the mic to obtain the desired signal, and therefore less bleed from other sources (since less gain means reduced sensitivity) resulting in a higher signal to noise ratio. This is nothing new. It's no big deal.

***

[/quote']

First off, drums. It takes an hour to EQ a kit?????

Kick drum. Drummer hits drum with beater, skin vibrates, air is compressed and rarified by said skin on BOTH sides. Hole at front for mic to go in, not for sound to get out. A lot of modern music tends to rely on a heavy kick sound hence the drummer wants to hear it this way. Add this to the fact that, being a low frequency instrument, it can be hard to pick out when everyone else is rockin out and you're much closer to the reason.

Bass. If it's an unusual sound then it's probably a combination of the amp and cab which produces it, merely DIing will negate the cab factor making all that hassle of changing it worthless. Sling a mic on as well. Especially if there's distortion.

Guitars. Yes, you will get frequency and phase related problems with multiple speakers (wait a minute, your PA has multiple speakers) but how much of that will be evident when one speaker is miked, considering the mic will be considerably further away and extremely off-axis to the other speakers. If your going to worry about that you would be better getting rid of the amp altogether, it might set up some comb filters,when combined with the PA sound, never mind the delay issues.

Sorry, i was goin to keep my big nose out but it was getting silly.

[Flash@TMB]

I'm not a drummer and have not drum teched for years and I bet I could set a kit up in 30mins and strip it in 10.

I don't doubt it' date=' unfortunately it never works out like that.

acceptable to who for gods sake? its a pub gig, get over yourself.

EXACTLY GraemeC. It's a pub gig, so what's the big problem with using a house kit?

so why is that different from any of the other drums? I think you'll find all the drums are manufactured the same and have the same sound characteristics (I'm beginning to see why it takes you an hour to eq the kit)

OK... because the kick drum is down on the floor' date=' and the sound exits it in front of and facing away from the drummer, it can be hard for the drummer to hear the kick drum over the other instruments. That's why we route it's sound through a drum monitor.

why? in my experience double miking a 4x12 is very effective.

Yes it is, but are you seriously suggesting that I double mic the cabs? What was your point about it being a pub gig again? From one extreme to the other.

you ain't kidding.....this seems a little double-standardish to me and points again to you having control issues....make the local would be's do what they are told ehhh?

Bands aren't paying me. So if I decided to devote more of my time to a particualr band then that's my choice.

[Ross]

I promote bands in Moshulu. Jimmy does the sound.

Thank Fuck we don't swap jobs.

[Ross]

We never have any problems with our PA...

Although I do occasionally have to run to the shop at the top of the road and buy 2 AA batteries.

If we use rechargables the power drains too quickly thus producing an inferior sound.

[Pete]

What's the size comparison to the Moorings to Drakes? Like I said, I ain't never been in Moorings for a gig but from the one time I have been in there, I don't recall it being any bigger than Drakes. My point? Drakes don't mic up the kit......!*

Also, I'd like to point out, I never EVER have drums put through monitors unless the bass drum is naturally VERY VERY VERY quiet, cos the drums is by far the loudest thing on stage and I have to listen out for the bass and guitar. Or maybe I just kick/hit hard.

*Although aye, the bass drum sometimes has a mic in it.