Old Roolz for Bands thread, retained for posterity

[soundian]

BUT should someone come in with a weak' date=' skewed, or biased argument... I smell blood and am after them like a terrier.

If uncertanty about something then I'll deliberately kickstart a debate from a polarised or controversial position (not necessarily reflective of my beliefs) in order to learn. It generates a lot more interest that way, and good ideas spring up as people struggle to breach the apparent communication gap.

[/quote']

Me too, weak, biased or skewed opinions make my blood boil.

Just out of interest, if you deliberatety post controversial views, why are you surprised when it sparks controversy?

[Dizzy Storm]

Erm

I'm A drummer. I can hear my kick drum. I do tune it though! And in a good old fashioned punk manner... If I can't hear it I do know when I should be hitting it! Obviously this will be different for larger gigs, such as the Music Hall, Lemon Tree, Drummonds, outdoors! All in all if a drummer seriously requires a drum fill in a pubesque atmos then he has to take a good hard look at himself and his ability(a fill for a click track is an entirely seperate matter). Not to say that he/she shouldn't need it by the way. Merely suggeting that if he/she can't hear their drums then maybe their band should turn down a smidge!

That's what happens at Drake's. If the drummer moans, we politely point at his band mates amps and smirk a knowing smirk!

You otta see some of the stage specs we get from the touring acts... They get signed and returned with a 'yeah right, as if!' Followed by a big grin and a reassuring 'you won't need that here, honest'... Never had any complaints, yet! It does make a difference for us having guys that look after the sound (minimal) come from the musicians/performers corner. So when we say 'you won't need that' or 'that will be fine' we 'kinda' know what we are talking about in an entirely non patronising way of course! We will also 'always' do our damndest to keep all happy!

But then I'm a drummer and what do I know? It's all a blast...

[Flash@TMB]

Well Flash old fruit I'm so pleased my comments amused you' date=' but you have, as yet, not explained why my bass drum comments were wrong. I'm no sound engineer but can see quite clearly that the bass drum is pointing generally in the direction of the drummer, the same as all the other drums in the kit, in fact, the snare and floor toms pointing at the ceiling are less directed at the drummer than the kik. As far as I know when you hit a drum it moves air in both directions (as a speaker does). Ok having a hole in the front skin allows some of that internal air to escape, but does that diminish the sound coming off the struck skin ?

If it does make a large difference then why do some drummers choose to remove the bottom skins from their toms, making them inaudible in a live situation, if you're science is correct.

In fact....if my comment was so silly, why have you removed the comment about the kik drum pointing away from the drummer in you're original post, smart ass?

G...[/quote']

Bang on - I changed the comment because people were having trouble understanding it.

Now I've already explained why the hole for the mic makes a big difference because it means much more sound takes the easy way out the hole, and therefore there is less thump and boom from the back skin, although the tapping noise of the beater will still be quite evident.

Now for the hard part that involves the concepts of up, down, towards, away, and a rough knowledge of human anatomy:

The drummers ears are located on his head which is at the TOP of his body. The head is located slightly to the rear but roughly between all the other drums and the ceiling... remember that all the other drums are usually angled TOWARDS the drummer. Thus the drummers ears are likely to intercept the drum sound as it travels UP to the the ceiling.

Except for the kick drum which is located DOWN on the floor with it's skins facing to the FRONT and BACK not UP and DOWN. The drummer DOES NOT have an EAR located in hit FOOT, LEG, OR ASS, all of which are also located DOWN near the REAR of the kick drum. Therefore once the other musicians fire up their equipment it becomes harder for the drummer to hear the kick drum - more so than the other drums. Hence why we artifically agument the sound by use of a monitor. The lower part of the monitor is a SUBWOOFER which release pressure that can be felt by the drummers body, as well as playing bass frequencies to boost the sound of the kick drum.

The Moorings stage area is constructed from sound absorbing materials, with the exception of the ceiling. These help eliminate stray noise but also reduce the reflection of sound from things like the kickdrum.

That's my last effort at explaining this. Also it's totally off topic.

[betamax]

It was absolutely fine' date=' because there was good reason to use it, it was important to your sound, and you agreed that everyone else could use it too. What also made a difference was that you asked nicely as opposed to assuming some sort of entitlement (and we had the impression that even if we declined you'd say "fair enough" and get on with it). That instantly made us 100% more receptive to your needs.

One of the other things that we take into account when arriving at these decisions is how much time a band is wasting. If they've already wasted 25mins farting around with a guitar pedal then we'll be less inclined to humour them as there simply isn't time.

Some musicians (but not many) are under the illusion that we are somehow there to act on their every whim. In reality we are there to ensure that it sounds good for everyone, and proceeds without a hitch. One of the reasons for drafting these guidelines was to make that clear from the outset.

You also have the advantage of having toured extensively, and realise that it's a team effort, whereas some people get their ideas from watching too many MTV documentaries involving superstar bands...[/quote']

Exactly, what you are doing is only the same as the more hardcore (5 bands a night) venues down south successfully run their gigs.....no catering for rock stars.....just be on time, set up quickly, make noises when you are asked to make noises and listen to the sound crew. Then go for junkfood/alchohol/medication.

[GraemeC]

Bang on - I changed the comment because people were having trouble understanding it.

Could that be because it was bollocks?

[Guest The Reverend Z. Munch]

You claim to want the bands gig to be rewarding at The Moorings and the first thing you do is enforce a set of draconian rules designed to piss off the average band member big style...

I don't understand this word they call "Draconian"' date=' where the fuck is Draconia? why do they bomb Iraq to get rid of a despotic and oppressive dictator when Draconians made up these kinds of rules and laws in the first place?

Have you ever met a Draconian before?

in my experience bands are tough enough to keep happy at the best of times and laying this shit on them is not going to make for their best performance.....I doubt the Nazi party had that many rules.

I bet you Starfall don't argue with it though

[Flash@TMB]

Me too' date=' weak, biased or skewed opinions make my blood boil.

Just out of interest, if you deliberatety post controversial views, why are you surprised when it sparks controversy?[/quote']

I'm not. The only surprising thing is that some guy has a problem with me putting kick drum through the drum monitor. Does that not surprise you? I mean here's this controversial thread and the dude keeps asking why I put kick drum in the monitor... like he's somehow discovered this major skeleton at the back of the closet.

*stands*

"MY NAMES FLASH AND I PUT KICK DRUM IN THE DRUM MONITOR."

*wipes sweat from forehead and sits down to round of pitying applause*

Gee I wonder why they make monitors with subwoofers??? Must be to weed out idiots like me. I can see it now: "Heh heh look Ma that sound engineers got a subwoofer next to the drum stool - what a loser! Doesn't he know that all drumers have an ear in their ass? Next he'll be insisting that they use a house kit AAAHAHAHAHAHAH. Dork."

Yes that surprises me.

[Rob Karloff]

When I read this first, I had similar thoughts to others, but I still saw the reasoning behind most of it. I understand it's somewhat impracticle to keep swapping the gear, but as others have said, a touring band will for the most part not let the supports use their stuff, and neither will they use some other gear (house or not) because they just can't rely on getting it to do what they want. Guitar volume is the biggest problem, and I'm often/usually the one guilty of it!! Any musician needs to hear what they are playing in a good balance with every other instrument onstage, and in small venues with poor/broken/non-existant monitors or non-mic'd equipment, then you rely on getting your amp to the level you need. Usually, that's too loud out front! I tend to find I can compromise by placing the cab up on some crates so it's nearer ear level, or putting the rig as far back onstage as possible. My Fender cab also has it's speakers angled up about 5 degrees which helps. All that guff about turning your 4x12 into a 1x12 is tricky sometimes, and potentially damaging to a valve amp. On my Fender cab, you have to take the speakers out the front to get at the wiring (back is glued in and vinyled over)... Even then the wires are soldered to the speaker terminals. If the speakers are not the usual 8-ohm rating then you need to ensure your amp is set correctly to avoid valve/transformer damage. I've never come across a situation where I couldn't make my 4x12 and 100W head suitable for the soundman and suitable for my on-stage sound. Also, I'll happily let someone use my cab, but not my heads. I spent too much money on buying them and having them fixed due to breakage. If I let someone use one of my heads and it goes pop when they're playing, are they gonna let me send them the bill? Did they damage it, or was it one of those things? Valves suffer wear and tear in normal use, and I put enough mileage on them myself! Besides that, it takes about 5 seconds to swap a guitar head between bands. When I used to try and do the sound for the bands in Drakes, my approach was to let them do what they wanted to be doing. The customer is always right and all that. Even with demanding and LOUD bands like the Real McKenzies, it made the job tricky to do without feedback and stuff, but ultimately I managed and they were happy. It may have been a little ragged in places, but that's part of the performance. It's all about middle ground, for me.

[Rob Karloff]

PS : I use a 100W JCM800 (although I only run 2 power valves so it's basically running at 50W) and 4x12 because that's what I've found gives me the sound I want. I can't get the *same* sound from my JCM2000 head, although I can get close. I also don't get the same sound from another cab... I use a Fender 4x12 because it's less bassy and has more middle to it. Sid Riffer uses the old Marshall 4x12, and our two sounds are different, but complimentary. Hopefully those of you who have bought "Self-Made Monsters" can hear this in your left/right ears (mine is in the left channel)!

[soundian]

I'm not. The only surprising thing is that some guy has a problem with me putting kick drum through the drum monitor. Does that not surprise you? I mean here's this controversial thread and the dude keeps asking why I put kick drum in the monitor... like he's somehow discovered this major skeleton at the back of the closet.

*stands*

"MY NAMES FLASH AND I PUT KICK DRUM IN THE DRUM MONITOR."

*wipes sweat from forehead and sits down to round of pitying applause*

Gee I wonder why they make monitors with subwoofers??? Must be to weed out idiots like me. I can see it now: "Heh heh look Ma that sound engineers got a subwoofer next to the drum stool - what a loser! Doesn't he know that all drumers have an ear in their ass? Next he'll be insisting that they use a house kit AAAHAHAHAHAHAH. Dork."

Yes that surprises me.

Maybe rewording from "kick drum will be put in the monitor" to "kick drum may be put through the drum fill if required". A minor change but it seems to open up whole new vistsas of choice.

As for not putting guitar through the monitor in front of the guitarist, why? I do this on a regular basis and find it's the easiest way to keep both me and the artist happy. If it's feeding back all the time you may need to look at your monitor set up.

Although I believe your in the process of trying out new ones so that problem should be solved soon anyway.

[Guest The Reverend Z. Munch]

As for not putting guitar through the monitor in front of the guitarist' date=' why? I do this on a regular basis and find it's the easiest way to keep both me and the artist happy[/quote']

Ian, do you call a lot of the local bands you work with "artists"?

You're either being awfully generous or awfully sarcastic there

[soundian]

Ian' date=' do you call a lot of the local bands you work with "artists"?

You're either being awfully generous or awfully sarcastic there [/quote']

I didn't, I said "the artist", singular.

[Guest The Reverend Z. Munch]

I didn't' date=' I said "the artist", singular.[/quote']

Sorry i misread it.

So how come you refer to this singular person as "The Artist" and when they playing next at Drummonds?

[Flash@TMB]

Rob - thanks for your feedback, and for taking the time to contribute to this thread.

So far we've been fortunate in all but one of the touring bands have preferred to compromise on equipment in order to extend the time available for playing. More so than the local bands. I suspect that not having to unload their van for the umpteenth time in as many days has been a major incentive, that and the fact they've usually arrived in Aberdeen quite late on.

In the Moorings it is necessary that the cabs are sited up on 1 or 2 layers of beer crates (depending on cab size) due to the disance between the cab and the guitarist vs the angle of dispertion in the speakers vertical axis.

Having the speakers angled up/back a little is a good idea. I often angle the entire cabs using bar towels.

I removed the 4x12 into 1x12 conversion suggestion because virtually everyone misinterpreted it as law.

The only issue with swapping backline is timing. We already lost the ability for bands to perform until 1am due to a band playing until 1.20am... because they ran out of time. BTW the drummers parting shot to me was "what's your fuckin problem asshole nobody's going to find out". Hmmm. Now we are subject to a 12am curfew on live music, 11pm on Sundays. If we break that curfew then we will be prevented from hosting live music. To ensure this never happens I've had a master switch installed that kills all power to the stage from behind the bar... and YES I'd use it!

It typically takes between 10 and 20 mins for one band to cease playing, remove their equipment and leave the stage, and for another band to set up and start playing. As the first band starts no sooner than 9pm (there are both commerical and noise emission reasons for this) we have 3 hours in which 3-4 bands must perform their sets. Three 20min changes would only leave 2 hours which equates to 30mins each... quite a squeeze! I'm unable to pause time. Bands can mitigate against this by sharing elements of the backline - that's just pragmatism. Imagine tying to swap drums in the time available though... hence the house kit.

You've inadvertantly raised another issue. Yes the customer is always (or at least usually right), but the customer is by implication the one paying. The bands do not pay the bar. The bar pays to host live music (cost of PA, sound engineer, doorstaff, extra bar staff, etc). Two weeks ago we had a very busy Sat night, and it was a great night, the place was rammed out the door. Last Sat we had no live music and the place was quiet. The difference in bar sales was 100. The reduction in operating costs was 300. Thus by not having live music our profits increase 200. So yes the bar DOES pay to host live music. On top of that there's the cost of the PA and that was a sore cheque to sign LOL.

The punters pay to listen to live music, both at the door, and indirectly at the bar.

The band are usually paid something by the promoter out of the door money; the band are in effect paid for a service.

That point may be uncomfortable, and I WILL NOT BE SURPRISED should it draw some flack. Careful how you interpret this, because I'm NOT implying anything. My intention is that it be food for thought. Nothing more.

[Flash@TMB]

Maybe rewording from "kick drum will be put in the monitor" to "kick drum may be put through the drum fill if required". A minor change but it seems to open up whole new vistsas of choice.

The default setting is IN. Most drummers complained they had trouble hearing the kick drum before we got the sub. If a drummer ever complains the kick drum is too loud on stage then we'll be happy to turn it down.

As for not putting guitar through the monitor in front of the guitarist' date=' why? I do this on a regular basis and find it's the easiest way to keep both me and the artist happy. If it's feeding back all the time you may need to look at your monitor set up.

Although I believe your in the process of trying out new ones so that problem should be solved soon anyway.[/quote']

In the Moorings the guitarist (whislt on stage) can be at most 8 feet in front of the amp. The guitarist being unable to hear an amp <8 feet away is probably an indication of deeper problems, and putting it through the monitor would be a band aid approach to getting the stage sound right. Like I said the left and right guitars are routed to the opposite monitors, and the centre guitar is routed to both since the distance from the amp is increased.

Drummonds is a different setup, and you obviously do what you do for a reason. The approach I outlined is suitable for the Moorings. Details appear in the rules in order to deter people from consuming time experimenting with the monitor feed.

We're experimenting with several different monitor options at present with the aim of improving the vocal feed on stage.

[Ross]

Sorry i misread it.

So how come you refer to this singular person as "The Artist" and when they playing next at Drummonds?

Prince @ Cafe Drummonds..... I`m THERE....

And to re-iterate..... PA!!!!

http://www.moshulu.net/images/my_first_pa_system.gif

[Rob Karloff]

You've inadvertantly raised another issue. Yes the customer is always (or at least usually right)' date=' but the customer is by implication the one paying. The bands do not pay the bar. The bar pays to host live music (cost of PA, sound engineer, doorstaff, extra bar staff, etc). Two weeks ago we had a very busy Sat night, and it was a great night, the place was rammed out the door. Last Sat we had no live music and the place was quiet. The difference in bar sales was 100. The reduction in operating costs was 300. Thus by not having live music our profits increase 200. So yes the bar DOES pay to host live music. On top of that there's the cost of the PA and that was a sore cheque to sign LOL.

The punters pay to listen to live music, both at the door, and indirectly at the bar.

The band are usually paid something by the promoter out of the door money; the band are in effect paid for a service.[/quote']

Maybe so, but I'm sure you realised that making money out of a live music venue was no mean feat. Especially when you spend a chunk of money on lots of PA gear. But, you wanted to do it, so here you are.

Think about it like this : If I go work on a Top Fuel dragster for someone, they are paying me to provide a service. However, if I take along my own tools and they then tell me I have to use their tools or someone else's, then I may be incapable of providing the best quality of service due to those tools.

Same thing applies to bands for me; When Karloff agree to play a show, we're not just going to go along and play some music. We are popular because we provide a performance, and to do that, we really need to use our own tools. Be that a guitar amp, some fake blood and stage props, or our singers mic and FX. If we don't, then we just aren't able to provide the best show we can... And then the customer isn't getting their money's worth! Not only that, but it could mean the difference between some punters loving our show and hating it. I've actually heard from people before who saw us in some tiny wee bar someplace where we couldn't use our stuff to best effect and they went away with a negative view of us, and then they saw us in the Lemon Tree or something and thought we were mega. Bottom line is, we care about the show we put on, and we're trying hard to get out there and establish a wider fan base and following, hence why we drove all the way to Manchester to play a gig and then drove all the way back here again. Just for one show...!

[Flash@TMB]

I have no problem with that - it just means that the time you actually spend playing will be shorter. No because I want it to be shorter, but because you've used more of the time we have allocated setting up your gear. Throw the drummers tools into the equation and oops, no time left to play. So we're not saying "NO" just pointing out that the clock keeps ticking and nobody's attending to watch people humph gear about.

Maybe so' date=' but I'm sure you realised that making money out of a live music venue was no mean feat. Especially when you spend a chunk of money on lots of PA gear. But, you wanted to do it, so here you are.

Think about it like this : If I go work on a Top Fuel dragster for someone, they are paying me to provide a service. However, if I take along my own tools and they then tell me I have to use their tools or someone else's, then I may be incapable of providing the best quality of service due to those tools.

Same thing applies to bands for me; When Karloff agree to play a show, we're not just going to go along and play some music. We are popular because we provide a [i']performance, and to do that, we really need to use our own tools. Be that a guitar amp, some fake blood and stage props, or our singers mic and FX. If we don't, then we just aren't able to provide the best show we can... And then the customer isn't getting their money's worth! Not only that, but it could mean the difference between some punters loving our show and hating it. I've actually heard from people before who saw us in some tiny wee bar someplace where we couldn't use our stuff to best effect and they went away with a negative view of us, and then they saw us in the Lemon Tree or something and thought we were mega. Bottom line is, we care about the show we put on, and we're trying hard to get out there and establish a wider fan base and following, hence why we drove all the way to Manchester to play a gig and then drove all the way back here again. Just for one show...!

[Flash@TMB]

There still appeared to be a few interpretation related issues so I've re-edited the document.

I've also added a statement at the end, to the effect that if the guidlines seem unreasonable then this may indicate that the Moorings may not be a suitable venue for that band to perform in.

Rob - I've thought about your dragster mechanic analogy and reached the conclusion that it's hugely flawed, and that the initial premise is based on a misinterpretation... but I don't want to go off topic. I gave up on analogies because none of mine held water either.

[Afro Droid]

From my own band(s)' point of view, NOT having humph tonnes of equipment from across Aberdeen to do a gig is a godsend. The house equipment is pretty similiar to our own anyways....and more than adequate for most bands' needs.

[GraemeC]

From my own band(s)' point of view' date=' NOT having humph tonnes of equipment from across Aberdeen to do a gig is a godsend. The house equipment is pretty similiar to our own anyways....and more than adequate for most bands' needs.[/quote']

spoken like a true vocalist...!

[Frosty Jack]

spoken like a true vocalist...!

I believe The Moorings now supply 'house sunglasses' y'know... 8)

[soundian]

The only issue with swapping backline is timing. We already lost the ability for bands to perform until 1am due to a band playing until 1.20am... because they ran out of time. BTW the drummers parting shot to me was "what's your fuckin problem asshole nobody's going to find out". Hmmm. Now we are subject to a 12am curfew on live music' date=' 11pm on Sundays. If we break that curfew then we will be prevented from hosting live music. To ensure this never happens I've had a master switch installed that kills all power to the stage from behind the bar... and YES I'd use it!

[/quote']

See, that's why I rag peoples asses to get on and off stage on time, this is what can happen if you fuck about and force the show to run late.

People think it can never happen.

p.s. Drummonds has almost lost it's licence a couple of times, we have a court order on us so we can't make a noise at certain times.

Funnily enough, when you say "You can't make any noise until 8" to bands, they interpret this as " You're whole band can't play together with monitors and stuff but you can hit your drums as loud as you like and turn your amp up to ten, just to make sure that dodgy lead from yesterday still makes it squeal like the loudest pig on earth."

You know who you are.

Cunts.

[GraemeC]

I believe The Moorings now supply 'house sunglasses' y'know... 8)

Which of course you must wear....unless you bring a note from you're doctor.

[Afro Droid]

spoken like a true vocalist...!

Heeeey! Flash will attest to my lifting/carrying prowess, evidenced by moving my fucking CDs between venues on a weekly basis!