Old Roolz for Bands thread, retained for posterity

[Flash@TMB]

First off' date=' drums. It takes an hour to EQ a kit?????

Kick drum.

[/quote']

You neglected to mention that if instruments occupy the same frequencies then things like mic bleed become more apparent, say between the bass, the kick drum, and the floor tom. IME incorporating all the various frequencies of a different drum kit whilst avoiding turning the bottom end to mud isn't exactly a trivial job. Unless you don't have a problem with the bottom end being muddy...

Drummer hits drum with beater' date=' skin vibrates, air is compressed and rarified by said skin on BOTH sides. Hole at front for mic to go in, not for sound to get out.

[/quote']

NEWSFLASH: when you cut a hole in something sound exits via the hole whether the hole is intended for that purpose or not. The hole is easier to exit than the skin so apply principle of conversion of energy (given the sound energy is finite), and cutting the hole in the kickdrum inadvertantly makes it harder for the drummer to hear the drum. Even a 1mm hole can severaly compromise an otherwise soundproofed partition. Try going out an exit and slowly closing the door, only when the door is fully shut does the volume tail off sharply... WAIT why am I even getting into this pedantic trivial nonsense??? Ian, I concede - let's leave it there.

The rest of your points had already been dealt with.

Sorry' date=' i was goin to keep my big nose out but it was getting silly.

[/quote']

Yeah like it got a lot less silly after you interjected. Not. Straight talking... I read your response as a cheap shot at scoring easy points. If I'm wrong in that interpretation then please accept my appologies. It's been a long day.

Unfortunately this is heading at a tangent away from the original intention which was to help me devise a workable template. I am continually editing and refining the original post so that it's easy to focus on the wood as opposed to the trees.

[Flash@TMB]

I promote bands in Moshulu. Jimmy does the sound.

Thank Fuck we don't swap jobs.

Tell me about it. Thanks for lightening this up I was starting to lose the plot. LMAO!

[Flash@TMB]

What's the size comparison to the Moorings to Drakes? Like I said' date=' I ain't never been in Moorings for a gig but from the one time I have been in there, I don't recall it being any bigger than Drakes. My point? Drakes don't mic up the kit......!*

Also, I'd like to point out, I never EVER have drums put through monitors unless the bass drum is naturally VERY VERY VERY quiet, cos the drums is by far the loudest thing on stage and I have to listen out for the bass and guitar. Or maybe I just kick/hit hard.[/quote']

I'm not sure what the capcity difference is but I suspect we have around 2-3x the floor area. Our capcity is rated at 150 with the seats in, and 200 with the seats out. Drakes is almost square, the Moorings is long and thin. We use 2 sets of delay speakers in order to transmit the sound to the back of the room.

The PAs delivery is linear, so it's possible to fade in just enough sound to augment the drums and backline without anyone acutally realising that this is the case (to address one of Ian's points it's possible to apply a delays to help make this seamless, but I've never found it to be necessary). This is what we do on Sundays when there's less people in the bar. It just helps balance everything out nicely. With our old JBL right this really wasn't an option because it had to be turned up real loud in order to sound decent... well semi-decent. On Saturdays there's not a ghosters of any of the drums making it to the far end of the room.

Anyway we're still off at a tangent.

[The Milner]

To be honest guys if says to me it will sound better his way then im going to do it his way after all who are we to argue he's been doing this in HIS place for a long time now so how can you disagree with him???

Fair enough you may have experience in this kind of stuff but not in the Moorings. He does.

As for the drum kit i agree why should the Touring Band be treated special and get to take time away from other peoples sets just so they can use their fancy kits?? I have a very good expensive kit but i don't demand that i get to use it every time Point play a gig. Its stupid. Everytime i have used it i have let the other drummers enjoy using a good kit for a change. I hate it at kef when you get made to set up at kit in front of the touring bands kit, it makes the local bands seem insignificant compared to the touring band. Also if he keeps the kit in the condition which he says he does with new heads, tuning and what have you then why complain?? He is going out his way to do that, drakes dont do that although they do have a nice new one. Kef dont even have any cymbol stands and the heads are worn out. So to me it seems your getting a very good deal from the Moorings.

[Flash@TMB]

The draft has now been updated to incorporate all relevant points. Thanks to everyone that has participated thus far.

[GraemeC]

"Any comments or advice are welcome!"

Ok heres my advice.....I can re-word the whole thing for you.

Drums.

The house kit will be used at all times.

Bass.

The house amp will be used at all times.

Guitars.

A maximum of 2x4x12's and 1xcombo on stage at any given time.

Monitors.

they are very limited and you will only get what I choose to give you.

Soundcheck.

Shut the fuck up until I say you can make a noise.

That says it all without the lecture on economics and sound engineering.

G...

[Flash@TMB]

You're catching on...

[GraemeC]

You're catching on...

Its an age thing.

[soundian]

You neglected to mention that if instruments occupy the same frequencies then things like mic bleed become more apparent' date=' say between the bass, the kick drum, and the floor tom. IME incorporating all the various frequencies of a different drum kit whilst avoiding turning the bottom end to mud isn't exactly a trivial job. Unless you don't have a problem with the bottom end being muddy...

NEWSFLASH: when you cut a hole in something sound exits via the hole whether the hole is intended for that purpose or not. The hole is easier to exit than the skin so apply principle of conversion of energy (given the sound energy is finite), and cutting the hole in the kickdrum inadvertantly makes it harder for the drummer to hear the drum. Even a 1mm hole can severaly compromise an otherwise soundproofed partition. Try going out an exit and slowly closing the door, only when the door is fully shut does the volume tail off sharply... WAIT why am I even getting into this pedantic trivial nonsense??? Ian, I concede - let's leave it there.

The rest of your points had already been dealt with.

Yeah like it got a lot less silly after you interjected. Not. Straight talking... I read your response as a cheap shot at scoring easy points. If I'm wrong in that interpretation then please accept my appologies. It's been a long day.

Unfortunately this is heading at a tangent away from the original intention which was to help me devise a workable template. I am continually editing and refining the original post so that it's easy to focus on the wood as opposed to the trees.[/quote']

Jeez, don't even try. I wasn't taking a cheap shot, hence the apology at the end of the post. I was letting you do your thing but you, and other people, were talking such complete horseshit I had to say something

If you want me to take a cheap shot or ten I'll gladly oblige, it's not like I've never done this before.

EDIT> I can see, after looking back at my original post, why you might have taken umbrage at my simplistic use of language during my bit on drums. The lack of grammar was purely for drummers, I just get used to talking about drums in simplistic terms e.g. "You drummer? Make big boom sound"= "kick drum please".

[Guest Sundaram]

Hahaha, it's always an entertaining read when flash posts some technical stuff and Ian comes along and picks it apart!

[soundian]

Hahaha' date=' it's always an entertaining read when flash posts some technical stuff and Ian comes along and picks it apart!

[/quote']

Any more of that talk and you're playing the pink oboe. Otherwise I'm not turning your flute on.

[Pete]

As for the drum kit i agree why should the Touring Band be treated special and get to take time away from other peoples sets just so they can use their fancy kits?? I have a very good expensive kit but i don't demand that i get to use it every time Point play a gig. Its stupid. Everytime i have used it i have let the other drummers enjoy using a good kit for a change. I hate it at kef when you get made to set up at kit in front of the touring bands kit' date=' it makes the local bands seem insignificant compared to the touring band. Also if he keeps the kit in the condition which he says he does with new heads, tuning and what have you then why complain?? He is going out his way to do that, drakes dont do that although they do have a nice new one. Kef dont even have any cymbol stands and the heads are worn out. So to me it seems your getting a very good deal from the Moorings.[/quote']

Well quite frankly, the local band is quite insignificant compared to a touring band - you're local, they have a record deal and an agent and managers etc etc - doesn't that put them a couple of notches above you...? Certainly in Kef there's space to do this. Remember, it's not YOUR gig, it's THEIR gig. The chances are the band and/or the promotor are doing you a favour by putting you on at such and such a gig so that you can play to a different audience and vice versa. If you feel you're getting treated as second best when you're SUPPORTING the MAIN ACT then maybe you shouldn't support any touring bands.

Plus, I dunno about you, but I certainly have a VERY specific way I like my kit set up. 99.9% of drum kits can be set up the way I like it but if I was on tour after releasing an album - you know, doing it professionally - I'd sure want to use my kit whenever I had the chance. In fact, I would pretty much insist on it at every gig, whether it was the Moorings or Kef or the Lemon Tree or the Barrowlands. After all, I'm the professional and these are the tools of my trade. You wouldn't expect David Beckham to wear off the rack boots now, would you? At the same time, if it were a Moorings or Drakes gig, where space is obviously very limited, I would easy let the other bands use my kit.

But at the level you and I are at, my friend, we're hardly in the position to throw a strop over having reduced stage space or having to use an inferior kit if it is demnaded of us.

This might be the wrong thread and even forum for this but, pff:P

[betamax]

From a bands perspective.......

Ive played most of Aberdeens venues plus lots of others that are far more demanding in terms of bigger acoustics, with pushy ego tripping headline acts and tighter schedules. A lot more so than anything in our beloved home town.....so hopefully Im qualified to comment.

Its a fact that the sound quality in the Moorings is consistently very good, onstage and offstage. The good onstage sound really helps with a the bands performance. Most sound guys forget that. The overall sound is always better than the Lemon Tree, usually better than Drummonds and utterly pisses all over Kef. I wont compare it to Drakes as I see Drakes as a different intimate environment all together, where the sound relies on your own backline and not on the PA so much. Drummonds and KEF are afflicted with shitty acoustics so I assume thats why the sound can go from really good to a dull mush or a high frequency fizz all in the same night. And some of the soundmen are considerably better than others adding a consistancy issue. The drums generally dont sound good in Drummonds for some reason (high roof???) and KEF is just a wall of echoing noise.

So whatever Flash and MTA are doing to rule out the various common fuck ups that most bands make, is definately working. Im happy to compromise with a venue and the sound guys if they give me the impression they know their shit, know the venues sound, and they give a fuck about trying to make the gig work. If they do, and you work WITH them, its usually dead good.

The best sounding gig in Scotland I know of, is Bannermans, the room is an arch shaped cavern style thing, and the PA is all thump and grind. The monitors are non existant (broken mostly) but it dosent matter cos the room shape reflects all the sound and you can hear everything anyway. All venues should be arch shaped!!! The sound guys are cool too, take no shit from the bands but do it all very professionally. I saw them really rip into a 'name' band that had two guitarists who were intent on drowning each other out. Fucking hilarious to see pop stars nearly crying.

Generally the sound guys outside Aberdeen have to take less shit from bands than they do here. If you show them that you want to get the gig right, they really go out of their way to help. When bands act like dicks, they sabotage the bands sound Im sure and rightly so. London is brilliant and home to the real hardcore soundmen/women and shittiest broken down PAs which is always fun. Usually you wont even get a soundcheck cos of some big name superstars in the building, which just makes it more fun. Always sounds good anyway.

So yup....., Flashes set of rules are actually a good set of guidlines that are appropriate to his venue and the type of bands he puts on. It works very well. No fucking about. The proof is there if you go along.

Dont forget, all musicians are idiots (me too) who need to be controlled for their own well being!!!

[The Milner]

Well quite frankly' date=' the local band is quite insignificant compared to a touring band - you're local, they have a record deal and an agent and managers etc etc - doesn't that put them a couple of notches above you...? Certainly in Kef there's space to do this. Remember, it's not YOUR gig, it's THEIR gig. The chances are the band and/or the promotor are doing you a favour by putting you on at such and such a gig so that you can play to a different audience and vice versa. If you feel you're getting treated as second best when you're SUPPORTING the MAIN ACT then maybe you shouldn't support any touring bands.

Plus, I dunno about you, but I certainly have a VERY specific way I like my kit set up. 99.9% of drum kits can be set up the way I like it but if I was on tour after releasing an album - you know, doing it professionally - I'd sure want to use my kit whenever I had the chance. In fact, I would pretty much insist on it at every gig, whether it was the Moorings or Kef or the Lemon Tree or the Barrowlands. After all, I'm the professional and these are the tools of my trade. You wouldn't expect David Beckham to wear off the rack boots now, would you? At the same time, if it were a Moorings or Drakes gig, where space is obviously very limited, I would easy let the other bands use my kit.

But at the level you and I are at, my friend, we're hardly in the position to throw a strop over having reduced stage space or having to use an inferior kit if it is demnaded of us.

This might be the wrong thread and even forum for this but, pff:P[/quote']

Yeah but the point is they dont let other people use their kits normaly which then makes it shit as far as i can tell. As i said i spent well over 1000 getting myself kitted out and would gladly yet anyother band use it when we play live but they dont. I can understand that yes they are touring and they have a record deal or whatever but they started where we did supporting bands like these but they quickly forget that when it comes to these kinda gigs. I also can understand them not wanting their expepensive kits to get hammered everynight by anyone but to be honest they should just deal with it or use the house kit. Yes i know that people like to use their own kit after all i am a drummer but there is such a thing as a comprimise. Yes i like my kit set up MY way but in these situations you cant always get exactly what you want and these bands seem to expect it.

[soundian]

Generally the sound guys outside Aberdeen have to take less shit from bands than they do here. If you show them that you want to get the gig right' date=' they really go out of their way to help. When bands act like dicks, they sabotage the bands sound Im sure and rightly so. [/quote']

It disturbs me that people could think a sound engineer would deliberately fuck the sound up. They have to listen to it too so I doubt it.

If a band are acting like dicks they generally manage to fuck their own sound up with no outside help.

[soundian]

Yeah but the point is they dont let other people use their kits normaly which then makes it shit as far as i can tell. As i said i spent well over 1000 getting myself kitted out and would gladly yet anyother band use it when we play live but they dont. I can understand that yes they are touring and they have a record deal or whatever but they started where we did supporting bands like these but they quickly forget that when it comes to these kinda gigs. I also can understand them not wanting their expepensive kits to get hammered everynight by anyone but to be honest they should just deal with it or use the house kit. Yes i know that people like to use their own kit after all i am a drummer but there is such a thing as a comprimise. Yes i like my kit set up MY way but in these situations you cant always get exactly what you want and these bands seem to expect it.

If you want to use your kit all the time get a headline tour and then cry as the money disappears out of your bank account when people who can barely play abuse it every night.

Alternatively you could get a headline tour and make all the bands use another kit. Like most people do.

Feel free to use your kit in Kef or Drummonds, as long as it's there before it's needed and other bands can use it there's no problem. In fact the Moorings is the only venue which has a reason to force you to use the house kit.

[betamax]

It disturbs me that people could think a sound engineer would deliberately fuck the sound up. They have to listen to it too so I doubt it.

I think they do. Ive been told they do by a couple Ive worked with. Ive seen bands playing when say for example the sound guy has obviously muted half the drum kit rendering it almost inaudible agaist the PA sound and turned up the bass so loud it wipes out everything else ....and lots of othe r stuff where they just fuck up the band with obviously bad eq or just low volumes. Ive seen enough of the same bands enough times in similar venues to see the huge differences the sound guy can make....good or bad (or adequate....he he...Im joking ). Maybe its not always a deliberate sabotage, but you would think so sometimes. Ive heards bands in Drummonds sound fantastic and then seen em in the Lemon Tree a week later with the same band members, same gear, same songs and they were crap. What happened?....its gotta be the poor sound they were given. Which also reminds me that the headliners in the Lemon usually get a brilliant sound and all the supports sound cack. Nothing consistent. At least Flash is aiming at getting something that works pretty well for all the bands without the need to fuck about too much on the nite. It wont work everywhere obviously.

One evil soundman trick Ive personnally had pulled is a sound guy switching off the vocal monitors mid set on the request of another bands manager (who was seemingly concerned we might just blow his 'name' band of the stage). Another sound guy applied about 3 rolls of gaffer tape to mute all our drum cymbols - again under the instruction of someone elses over concerned tour manager. Tape was then removed for the main act obviously.

[Flash@TMB]

I think they do. Ive been told they do by a couple Ive worked with.

I heard secondhand about how a sound guy got so pissed off with a vocalist that he down modulated his vocal to the extent that most of the crowd left the STADIUM before the end of the gig. Now that's coorse! I want a modulator. Oh yes I do. Just as a deterrant...

[soundian]

From a bands perspective.......

Ive played most of Aberdeens venues plus lots of others that are far more demanding in terms of bigger acoustics' date=' with pushy ego tripping headline acts and tighter schedules. A lot more so than anything in our beloved home town.....so hopefully Im qualified to comment.

Its a fact that the sound quality in the Moorings is consistently very good, onstage and offstage. The good onstage sound really helps with a the bands performance. Most sound guys forget that. The overall sound is always better than the Lemon Tree, usually better than Drummonds and utterly pisses all over Kef. I wont compare it to Drakes as I see Drakes as a different intimate environment all together, where the sound relies on your own backline and not on the PA so much. Drummonds and KEF are afflicted with shitty acoustics so I assume thats why the sound can go from really good to a dull mush or a high frequency fizz all in the same night. And some of the soundmen are considerably better than others adding a consistancy issue. The drums generally dont sound good in Drummonds for some reason (high roof???) and KEF is just a wall of echoing noise.

![/quote']

A couple more points.Engineers are very aware that a good stage sound is important to a bands performance, unfortunately if mons are from FOH we have to rely on the artists knowing what they want to hear and directing us to it, within the limitations of equipment. This, to me, is the most important part of a soundcheck, it's the reason for it, apart from checking all the equipment works properly.

As to the consistency in an evening, same engineer, same room, same PA, different bands. See where the difference is. Even in a place the size of Drummonds I quite often have no control over bass, guitars and snare drums. I also have no control on the sounds emanating from these things. Bands should look to their own sounds and dynamics first. Bands who sound good tend to have sounds which work well together and a reasonably good control of their instrument.It's the siso principle, shit in/shit out.

[soundian]

I think they do. Ive been told they do by a couple Ive worked with. Ive seen bands playing when say for example the sound guy has obviously muted half the drum kit rendering it almost inaudible agaist the PA sound and turned up the bass so loud it wipes out everything else ....and lots of othe r stuff where they just fuck up the band with obviously bad eq or just low volumes. Ive seen enough of the same bands enough times in similar venues to see the huge differences the sound guy can make....good or bad (or adequate....he he...Im joking ). Maybe its not always a deliberate sabotage' date=' but you would think so sometimes. Ive heards bands in Drummonds sound fantastic and then seen em in the Lemon Tree a week later with the same band members, same gear, same songs and they were crap. What happened?....its gotta be the poor sound they were given. Which also reminds me that the headliners in the Lemon usually get a brilliant sound and all the supports sound cack. Nothing consistent. At least Flash is aiming at getting something that works pretty well for all the bands without the need to fuck about too much on the nite. It wont work everywhere obviously.

One evil soundman trick Ive personnally had pulled is a sound guy switching off the vocal monitors mid set on the request of another bands manager (who was seemingly concerned we might just blow his 'name' band of the stage). Another sound guy applied about 3 rolls of gaffer tape to mute all our drum cymbols - again under the instruction of someone elses over concerned tour manager. Tape was then removed for the main act obviously.[/quote']

Maybe the engineer was having an off day, we are human after all, maybe they weren't experienced enough, maybe the just plain got it wrong, maybe the band disovered the joys of turning their amps up. No one can really say unless they were working the board and know how much control they had of the situation.

I agree with Flash's rules it was some of the reasons which I had issues with. Those are sensible rules for that venue and I'm sure he's tried other ways and they don't work.

As to the engineer, I would refuse unless the person telling me to do it paid my wages. We would end our professional relationsahip as soon as I got paid though.

[Flash@TMB]

Worth mentioning... I NEVER operate from a static viewpoint. I'm constantly learning and evolving by listening to other people of ALL ages (after all I was sharper and had bigger balls 15 years ago). Many of the ideas implemented in the Moorings have originated externally. Later on I'm sure to tap the originator on the shoulder and say "remember that suggestion you made 9 months ago, well..."

BUT should someone come in with a weak, skewed, or biased argument... I smell blood and am after them like a terrier.

If uncertanty about something then I'll deliberately kickstart a debate from a polarised or controversial position (not necessarily reflective of my beliefs) in order to learn. It generates a lot more interest that way, and good ideas spring up as people struggle to breach the apparent communication gap.

A lot of the negative feedback has also been incorporated into current draught, more evident by the sections that've been deleted.

So if I post something with "let's discuss", or "your feedback welcomed"... I REALLY MEAN IT.

Cheers!

***

Ian - When I read your post it mentioned things getting silly, then raised a points that all appeared to be directed at me. However you made no mention of some more obviously silly things in the thread like my particular favourite:

so why is that different from any of the other drums? I think you'll find all the drums are manufactured the same and have the same sound characteristics

My original version WAS draconian... but I knew that going in softly would draw just as much flak but without the ability to negotiate down to a fair and workable position.

I was hoping that, as a sound engineer you would see the direction I was heading in, and focus on that (as opposed to technical points that can be argued down to infinity). OK - that's now the case and we're certainly getting somewhere positive. My reaction was excessive but I was having my arse flamed at the time A persons mood can greatly affect how they interpret text. You & I have had this problem before.

One of my goals was to open up a little debate on guitar volume. I wanted to make people think harder about the pros and cons of different sized cabs. Most people are still ignorant. In all honesty would you rather see a 100W 1x12 Marshall combo on your stage or a 400W 4x12 cab? And why?

Personally I like the single speaker because I know that the mic is directly in the path of ALL the output, and there aren't another 3 speakers blaring away. It facilitates a gain setting that is less likely to pick up any lower frequencies emitting from the bass but just creeping in over the filter muddying the sound. I then see less action on the meter for that channel ref background noise. I also know that when I ask the guitarist to turn up or down that the effect on the sound is fully reflective of the signal I'm picking up. Problem is that IME none of this interests most guitar players whom I suspect (DANGER) are often as interested in the look of the backline than the actual sound. I hoped by somehow implying that 4x12s are less than optimal (and this can be argued) that some guitar players would consider the possibility that bigger does always not equate to better.

I wasn't expecting the bass and drums to be such an issue because only twice in 8 months have bands requested to use their own drums, and only once has the bass amp been an issue (Real Shocks LOL!!!). Usually they are chuffed at not having to lug stuff around. That level of disruption I can handle long-term!

[betamax]

I wasn't expecting the bass and drums to be such an issue because only twice in 8 months have bands requested to use their own drums' date=' and only once has the bass amp been an issue (Real Shocks LOL!!!). Usually they are chuffed at not having to lug stuff around. That level of disruption I can handle long-term![/quote']

I didnt think it was an issue cos we let all the other bands use our bass amp didnt we? ....Im sure all we said at the time was can we use our bass amp please and you or MTA said ''ok aye''. This draconianism is a myth!!!

[Flash@TMB]

It was absolutely fine, because there was good reason to use it, it was important to your sound, and you agreed that everyone else could use it too. What also made a difference was that you asked nicely as opposed to assuming some sort of entitlement (and we had the impression that even if we declined you'd say "fair enough" and get on with it). That instantly made us 100% more receptive to your needs.

One of the other things that we take into account when arriving at these decisions is how much time a band is wasting. If they've already wasted 25mins farting around with a guitar pedal then we'll be less inclined to humour them as there simply isn't time.

Some musicians (but not many) are under the illusion that we are somehow there to act on their every whim. In reality we are there to ensure that it sounds good for everyone, and proceeds without a hitch. One of the reasons for drafting these guidelines was to make that clear from the outset.

You also have the advantage of having toured extensively, and realise that it's a team effort, whereas some people get their ideas from watching too many MTV documentaries involving superstar bands...

[GraemeC]

Well Flash old fruit I'm so pleased my comments amused you, but you have, as yet, not explained why my bass drum comments were wrong. I'm no sound engineer but can see quite clearly that the bass drum is pointing generally in the direction of the drummer, the same as all the other drums in the kit, in fact, the snare and floor toms pointing at the ceiling are less directed at the drummer than the kik. As far as I know when you hit a drum it moves air in both directions (as a speaker does). Ok having a hole in the front skin allows some of that internal air to escape, but does that diminish the sound coming off the struck skin ?

If it does make a large difference then why do some drummers choose to remove the bottom skins from their toms, making them inaudible in a live situation, if you're science is correct.

In fact....if my comment was so silly, why have you removed the comment about the kik drum pointing away from the drummer in you're original post, smart ass?

G...

[Hog]

Ladies, Ladies!

I cant pipe in to this conversation because although Im in a couple of bands, I do not have the knowledge of most of you guys. However, I think its great to see an owner of a bar (Flash) really care about the live sound of the bands. You must admit that such a hands on approach is rare in the local scene?!