What makes Scotland yours?

[Shaki]

Good List, but wheres Irn Bru and Taggart?

and the Krankies?!

[Sam_b]

Hang on, didn't you rant on about how you supported self determination?

The Scottish people have a right to self-determination like any group, but that doesn't mean that I support it being exercised.

[black_matter]

scotland for me is being able to appreciate abseloutely anything by starting a sentence with "mon the"

example

'Mon the footy!

'Mon the tunes!

It also makes me laugh and pass time by thinking of other nationalites trying to imitate a scots person doing that.

[Cloud]

The Scottish people have a right to self-determination like any group, but that doesn't mean that I support it being exercised.

So you're actually a Unionist? How disgusting.

[SteveCrisis]

In no particular order:

Mogwai

Aereogramme

Arab Strap

Chemikal Underground

Tennents Lager

Single Malts

Old Firm Clashes

Seasonal Adjustment Disorder

Naked Video

Chewin' The Fat

Still Game

Some of the cast from Absolutely

Supporting any team that plays against England

Ian Banks

Ian Rankin

Christopher Brookmyre

Oor Wullie

The Broons

The Beano

Electric Soup

The MacBam Brothers

Deep-fried confectionery, pizzas, and other foods

Haggis, neeps and tatties

Skirlie

Good List, but wheres Irn Bru and Taggart?

and the Krankies?!

Irn Bru was overlooked, sadly. It's a damn good hangover cure. Taggart?Hmmm, OK. It should have been included.

As for the Krankies, what can I say?

Apart from FAN-DAB-A-DOZY!

[Sam_b]

So you're actually a Unionist? How disgusting.

My, what a mightily convincing line.

I wouldn't say I was specifically a unionist, for example I support Irish republicanism, and that I wouldn't shed a tear for the break up of the imperialist British state. However, it seems like it would be a drastic tactical error to push for Scottish independance, from the perspective of the isolationism of workers down south and the traditionally strong links of the labour movement nationwide. An independant Scotland would also make fuck-all change to the everyday lives of working people - it will still be an independant capitalist country, run by the cpaitalist class. There is no change here.

[Chris]

An independant Scotland would also make fuck-all change to the everyday lives of working people - it will still be an independant capitalist country, run by the cpaitalist class. There is no change here.

Do you not think with the successes that the left leaning parties have had in the Scottish Parliament so far, using it's fairly limited powers, that an independant Scotland would enable the left to have a much bigger effect on people's lives than they have just now?

The UK parliament, and it's lack of any proportional representation, severly curtails the ability for smaller parties and possible single issue coalitions to enact any power as control is firmly with the big 3 parties.

[Sam_b]

Do you not think with the successes that the left leaning parties have had in the Scottish Parliament so far, using it's fairly limited powers, that an independant Scotland would enable the left to have a much bigger effect on people's lives than they have just now?

The UK parliament, and it's lack of any proportional representation, severly curtails the ability for smaller parties and possible single issue coalitions to enact any power as control is firmly with the big 3 parties.

I completely see you point and I think its a good one, but personally I don't think we can say that Scotland is more 'left wing' per se than down south. The massive amount of class consciousness and trade union awareness, especially in the north of England (for example, the docker's strike in Liverpool), and coupled withthe increasing successes of leftist parties to get councillorship and/or amass a fair proportion of votes, shows this to not specifically be true. Examples of this being the Socialist Party, RESPECT, and to a lesser extend Worker's Liberty.

Thus I think that we shouldn't push for independence solely for a more proportional system of government (although the Scottish Parliament's system is fairer it still allows the mainstream parties to amass large amonuts of FPTP seats). The debate here should be about reforming our so-called democraticm structures, not why we should split off from the nationwide steruggle!

[A.Pel]

IRN BRU

TENNANTS

novelty hats with red hair

Going ''hillwaking'' in the middle of fuck knows where.

Folk that are bleezing at 2pm

Teenage pregnancies

decent curries and kebabs

GLENMORANGIE (gaelic for ''glen of tranquility'')

Crathes Castle

Pfft, can't think of much.

[Shaki]

Pfft, can't think of much.

Dougie Donnelly not got a shout yet?!

[Cloud]

I wouldn't say I was specifically a unionist, for example I support Irish republicanism

Why do you support Irish republicianism? You've said quite firmly that you believe in self determination - and Northern Ireland at the minute (and at every point during its 85 year-ish existence) has always been in favour of remaining within the Union. As it stands, pro-Union parties also have a majority of seats in the NI Assembly - so surely, you should be supporting the Loyalist cause?

And of course, you do realise that Ireland doesn't want Northern Ireland either? Regardless of the romantic poems spouted by the republicans, it's a cold, hard fact that Ireland won't want to inherit a state that requires massive amounts of subsidy just to keep afloat - along with the fact that the infrastructure is falling to bits in NI.

However, it seems like it would be a drastic tactical error to push for Scottish independance, from the perspective of the isolationism of workers down south and the traditionally strong links of the labour movement nationwide.

I think the socialists in Scotland can't make the mistake of not wanting to push for independence straight away - without independence, a lot of their policies are simply unachievable under the current system. It doesn't take a genius to work out that any socialist party will raise taxes in Scotland - and sorry, but any socialist plan would require a lot more than 3p extra in the pound.

Sam, try not to let yourself be bogged down in the theory - yes, it might make sense on paper to not abandon the workers elsewhere, but let's be honest, a socialist party in power in Scotland couldn't achieve their aims without independence.

An independant Scotland would also make fuck-all change to the everyday lives of working people - it will still be an independant capitalist country, run by the cpaitalist class. There is no change here.

Oh come on, you're just being silly now.

An independent Scotland has far, far more chance of change than it has as part of the UK - I suspect given the strength (and general left wing attitude) of Scottish Labour, we would see a far more socialist-in-nature Scotland than we do at the minute. The Conservatives would represent a small minority in a country that would likely consistently elect strong parties of the Left - especially so when you look at the history of voting patterns in Scotland. In fact, I suspect the SNP would be the closest party ideologically to the Conservatives in an independent Scotland - with Labour and the other socialist parties fighting it out for the main socialist Left vote.

[Chris]

An independent Scotland has far, far more chance of change than it has as part of the UK - I suspect given the strength (and general left wing attitude) of Scottish Labour, we would see a far more socialist-in-nature Scotland than we do at the minute. The Conservatives would represent a small minority in a country that would likely consistently elect strong parties of the Left - especially so when you look at the history of voting patterns in Scotland. In fact, I suspect the SNP would be the closest party ideologically to the Conservatives in an independent Scotland - with Labour and the other socialist parties fighting it out for the main socialist Left vote.

Fuck.

I agree with cloud.

Apart from the bit about the SNP. They would probably be about level with the Lib Dems as the furthest to the right large parties, and even then they'd be occupying the centre ground.

I'd imagine (unfortunately) though that the Tories will eventually claw back ground in Scotland, especially in their traditionally strong rural areas like Aberdeenshire South. And if I'm honest a true democracy needs a broad spectrum of strong parties to provide effective opposition, so it would probably make for a healthier parliament if that happened.

[framheim]

I thought the SNP were very much left of the lib dems. They have quite strong social ideals despite being interested in promoting scottish business.

[Chris]

I thought the SNP were very much left of the lib dems. They have quite strong social ideals despite being interested in promoting scottish business.

I think they're both european style social democratic parties (certainly that's what Salmond's been describing himself as recently). No doubt someone more clued up on political science can give a more accurate description of the two though.

[Cloud]

I hold my hands up - I completely forgot about the Lib Dems when talking about the SNP being closest ideologically to the Conservatives.

I think they're both european style social democratic parties (certainly that's what Salmond's been describing himself as recently). No doubt someone more clued up on political science can give a more accurate description of the two though.

It's a tough one. Apart from the way that the Lib Dems are unionist and the SNP nationalist, it's hard to think of any defining characteristics that seperate them. I suspect that the difference is much greater in people's heads than it is in reality. However, the SNP would probably never consider a centre-right position, whereas some of the Lib Dem policies could be arguably said to flirt with the centre-right.

Thinking about this (and doing some quick research), the difference probably lies in that the Lib Dems are willing to adopt centre-right policies when it matters (opposing trade union power would be a good example), but they're also willing to adopt centre-left policies to gain ground where it matters, too. The SNP are more likely to stick to the centre-left position while in opposition, though.

Interestingly though, Nicol Stephen has made a lot of noise about refusing to join in a coalition with the SNP if Salmond insists on a referendum. I'm not convinced that the Lib Dems would flatly refuse if Labour get beaten badly in the next election though - as it stands, it may just be an attempt at establishing themselves as being the liberal unionist option.

In the European Parliament, the SNP are a member of European Greens - European Free Alliance (strictly speaking, a member of EFA). The Lib Dems are a member of the European Liberal Democrat and Reform Party - so there's a difference there. Looking at it now, there's not much difference between the ELDR and the EFA - except the EFA consists of parties from (self proclaimed) stateless nations.

But yup, I'm hard pushed to define them beyond european social democrats.

[Sam_b]

Why do you support Irish republicianism? You've said quite firmly that you believe in self determination - and Northern Ireland at the minute (and at every point during its 85 year-ish existence) has always been in favour of remaining within the Union. As it stands, pro-Union parties also have a majority of seats in the NI Assembly - so surely, you should be supporting the Loyalist cause?

Yes. Self determination of ethnic groups.

Sam, try not to let yourself be bogged down in the theory - yes, it might make sense on paper to not abandon the workers elsewhere, but let's be honest, a socialist party in power in Scotland couldn't achieve their aims without independence.

Socialism is entirely irrelevant without theory.

An independent Scotland has far, far more chance of change than it has as part of the UK - I suspect given the strength (and general left wing attitude) of Scottish Labour, we would see a far more socialist-in-nature Scotland than we do at the minute. The Conservatives would represent a small minority in a country that would likely consistently elect strong parties of the Left - especially so when you look at the history of voting patterns in Scotland. In fact, I suspect the SNP would be the closest party ideologically to the Conservatives in an independent Scotland - with Labour and the other socialist parties fighting it out for the main socialist Left vote.

The left-wing attitude of Scottish Labour that has been closing health facilities, creating the ridiculous Anti-Social Behaviour (Scotland) Bill, the party that didn't show Solidarity with striking nursery nurses or local government workers?

[Cloud]

Yes. Self determination of ethnic groups.

So come on, let's hear your suggestions for the future of Northern Ireland. I'd be interested to hear any proposal that caters for both Unionism and Nationalism. And remeber, both Protestants and Catholics in NI have an equally valid claim to be part of an ethnic group.

Socialism is entirely irrelevant without theory.

So in other words, you rely on outdated theory (how long ago did Marx/Lenin die?) rather than looking at the reality of the situation?

The left-wing attitude of Scottish Labour that has been closing health facilities, creating the ridiculous Anti-Social Behaviour (Scotland) Bill, the party that didn't show Solidarity with striking nursery nurses or local government workers?

If you read my post properly, you would realise that I was referring to a post-independence Scottish Labour. At the minute, their hands are tied by the UK party - effectively, they have to follow the UK party on a lot of matters, even if it goes against the spirit of devolution. It doesn't take a genius to work out that once independence is achieved, they would veer straight to the left, especially as the Scottish attitude lends itself well to the concept.

Some might also say that not showing any sort of solidarity with local goverment workers is a good thing.

[Sam_b]

So come on, let's hear your suggestions for the future of Northern Ireland

Well a complete withdrawal of troops might be nice...

So in other words, you rely on outdated theory (how long ago did Marx/Lenin die?) rather than looking at the reality of the situation?

Thats blatantly rubbish. Without theory, there is no socialism. I don't see how anything that Marx has said is now 'outdated', especially with regards to workers rights and the like, in an increasingly neoliberal age. Without any guidance then there i nothing - from the October revolution to the Venezuelan revolution. Its not like there is even a textbook format set out in Marxist literature, I mean look at the Venezuelan example.

If you read my post properly, you would realise that I was referring to a post-independence Scottish Labour

So you're working solely on presumption?

they have to follow the UK party on a lot of matters, even if it goes against the spirit of devolution

So why did Jack McConnell speak out against Gordon Brown on the devolution issue?

It doesn't take a genius to work out that once independence is achieved, they would veer straight to the left, especially as the Scottish attitude lends itself well to the concept.

See? You're banknig on what you think might happen, which I would say is obviously not gonig to work. What is the first thing that an indepedence-enforced capitalist Scottish government would look for? Foreign investment.

Some might also say that not showing any sort of solidarity with local goverment workers is a good thing.

Well, you mean 'you'.

[Cloud]

Well a complete withdrawal of troops might be nice...

Well, the plan exists to return to a normal complement of troops. Problem is, you're forgetting that they were originally called in to protect the Catholic minority - regardless of what happened since, you can't forget that at the time of the original deployment, the situation was rapidly spiralling out of control, even to the point where an Irish invasion of NI was being considered.

So withdrawing all the troops won't be a sensible idea - if anything, it will give Loyalist paramilitaries an excuse to run riot. Unionists are already getting rather annoyed at the withdrawal of the army from day to day affairs - so withdrawing all troops simply isn't an option if there's any hope of a lasting peace in Northern Ireland.

Also remeber that the majority of people in NI are unionists, so those people are most likely to support the troops actually backing up the army, especially in places like South Armagh.

Any other sensible ideas on a future for Nothern Ireland? Remeber, self determination means that the Catholic minority will be discriminated against (as what happened in the 50 years of the NI Parliament), so be careful with what you say,

So you're working solely on presumption?

Doesn't take an educated political commentator to realise that once Scotland gets independence, Scottish Labour is going to be controlled by Scots, not by London-appointed puppets who wil "do the right thing". And given that a lot of Labour voting Scots are people who would have flirted with voting for the SSP, it doesn't take a genius to work out what's going to happen. Of course, that may not be to your liking.

So why did Jack McConnell speak out against Gordon Brown on the devolution issue?

Did he? I knew he's been making slight noises about independence working, but I can't find any reference to him having actively spoke out against Brown - though it is obvious that under a Brown leadership, he won't enjoy any support from McConnell.

See? You're banknig on what you think might happen, which I would say is obviously not gonig to work. What is the first thing that an indepedence-enforced capitalist Scottish government would look for? Foreign investment.

How do you know the future of the country is to be capitalist? With fatalism like that, it's no surprise that the socialist movement implodes on itself constantly.

Well, you mean 'you'.

I think a lot of people outside the public sector can see how ridiculous it is that public sector employees have a lot of rights that they wouldn't get in the private sector- and I think a lot of rational people can also see that some of the conditions within the public sector are also a complete and utter disgrace.

Interestingly, why are you supporting the public sector employees when a lot of them enjoy a nice gold plated middle class career? Fair enough, the front line employees may not - but what about the bosses? Some of the salaries for management positions are absolutely astronomical, especially when you consider that there's guaranteed pensions in there too.

[Guest Neubeatz]

How do you know the future of the country is to be capitalist? With fatalism like that, it's no surprise that the socialist movement implodes on itself constantly.

I think one can safely wager on the fact that the proportion of greedy individuals wont change under an independant administration..............

[Cloud]

I think one can safely wager on the fact that the proportion of greedy individuals wont change under an independant administration..............

Course it won't. Nor will it change under a "socialist" system as opposed to a "capitalist" system. I'd love to know Sam's proposals for removing those people

[Bodast]

Lochaber no more

Sutherland no more

Lewis no more

Skye no more (hup! hup!)

Bathg8 no more

Linwood no more

Methel no more

Irvine no more

Lochaaaabuurrrr noooo morrrrr

makes Scotland mine.

[Guest Neubeatz]

Course it won't. Nor will it change under a "socialist" system as opposed to a "capitalist" system. I'd love to know Sam's proposals for removing those people

Well, what I was pointing out, in relation to the debate is that "capitalism" feeds off the "greedy individuals", whereas the "greedy individuals" feed off socialism,

Renedering both of them innefective as balanced and fair,

So whether it's a socialist or capitalist scotland the greedy individuals would still be there,

Socialism sets out to be fairer to the majority, Capitalism only survives by continumm of disparity of wealth and resources ensuring that the haves always have the social and economic advantage over the have nots.

The major downfall of both systems I would definately say are the greedy individuals.

So, how do we "socially engineer" greed out of the system?

A non greedy scotland would make me very proud.

[Guest Neutral]

Scotland isn't mine it belongs to everyone!

[Benji]

So, how do we "socially engineer" greed out of the system?

Sever all ties with the United Kingdom and become The Republic Of Scotland. More income from our Oil & Gas sector would lead to better living costs - the greddy would still be greedy, but at least the rest of us could live our lives comfertably.

/