Promoting in Aberdeen:

[Flash@TMB]

The reason that I'd like to see the music scene expanded is that this would be the most (and probably only) sustainable way of ensuring that all the venues earn a decent living. Fighting over the same market leads to casualties. Less venues leads to shrinkage of the music scene. The best way forward is to work together to expand the scene, and hit a critical mass whereby it quickly starts to expand all on it's own. This has never been achieved in Aberdeen, and that's why the scene has historically waxed and waned. The population of this city is currently at an all time high - perhaps it's now or never.

***

On the subject of resdiencies and bands gigging in the same town/venue several weeks/nights in a row...

Stayover's situation isn't unique. We helped pull off the same thing with 48K two years previously, before their progress was sadly interrupted. Here's how it works: The Moorings has the advantage of being a popular bar, with free admission most nights, and a large regular customer base. Both the Stayover and 48K residencies were done FOC and free admission. Lot's of people that wouldn't normally pay top see those bands (and some who don't pay to see bands full stop), were exposed to their music. After a month pretty much all our customers had attended at least one of their gigs, and many of them had been to several and started to become familiar with the tunes, no doubt humming them in the shower (or on the toilet) etc.

When 48K later returned to play a Saturday gig with door charge a few months later, many of those people turned out to support them. In the case of Stayover I suspect that their residency contributed to their being voted both best AND worst band (no mean feat) especially taking into account that their was a sizeable contribution of voting forms from Moorings customers.

Both 48K and Stayover also seemed to benefit musically and performance wise from the experience. You could see their confidence growing on stage. Stayovers 4th resident gig during which included guest stars and covers of other bands material (mainly other local bands), topped off by Phillip joining them for Baker Street was possibly the highlight of my year. It's still fondly remembered.

Outside of these very localised experiences, there is also some historical data. Back in 1962 The Beatles played a long residency in Hamburg. This was instrumental in honing their stage craft, making them tight, and developing their look. It never did them any harm either!

If any band is interested in working a residency then please contact me.

[jester1470]

exception to the rule I think. Bands simply should not play more than 1 gig a month in the same place. It's just a bad idea that's been documented time and time again but some bands just don't listen.

Not necessarily, when a bands starting out the only way to get tight frequently is to play live, and sometmes thats the way to go forward. It is a way to create a following and rehearse, I'd say for the first year/6 months if you can sustain it play as much as you can live, after that you should be spreading your wings outwith Aberdeen anyway.

Cheers

Stuart

[Chris]

Not necessarily' date=' when a bands starting out the only way to get tight frequently is to play live, and sometmes thats the way to go forward. It is a way to create a following and rehearse, I'd say for the first year/6 months if you can sustain it play as much as you can live, after that you should be spreading your wings outwith Aberdeen anyway.

Cheers

Stuart[/quote']

You rehearse in a room, not on a stage. You can't build a following by playing 4 or 5 times in the same city during one month. All you're doing is splitting your audience. The only way I could ever seeing it being beneficial is if every gig was playing to audiences who would never see you otherwise, but in Aberdeen that's not going to happen.

Every band needs live experience, that's true, but it will come in time. They shouldn't risk alienating people through overexposure to gain stage presence. Apart from anything else they run the risk of becoming bored with the whole thing (especially if they're treating it as an extra rehearsal) and nothing looks worse than a band who don't look interested on stage. If they're bored why should we pay any attention?

[Guest MDP]

i think for what flash said to be true, the band have to be really good, and have catchy tunes in the first place

[Flash@TMB]

i think for what flash said to be true' date=' the band have to be really good, and have catchy tunes in the first place[/quote']

Yes and also to have either broad or mainstream appeal. It doesn't work for everyone.

[jester1470]

You rehearse in a room' date=' not on a stage. You can't build a following by playing 4 or 5 times in the same city during one month. All you're doing is splitting your audience. The only way I could ever seeing it being beneficial is if every gig was playing to audiences who would never see you otherwise, but in Aberdeen that's not going to happen.

Every band needs live experience, that's true, but it will come in time. They shouldn't risk alienating people through overexposure to gain stage presence. Apart from anything else they run the risk of becoming bored with the whole thing (especially if they're treating it as an extra rehearsal) and nothing looks worse than a band who don't look interested on stage. If they're bored why should we pay any attention?[/quote']

I dont think most bands work like that, rehearsing in a rehearsal room is all right but its nothing like playing on stage, playing onstage helps hone the skills of showmanship etc that you cant get by playing in a rehearsal room,I dont see how playing aig every 2 weeks will actually damage a band if they're playing different venues because the passing trade in the Moorings who might be exposed to your music is frequently different from the passing trade in the Tunnels or Drummonds, or at a support in the Lemon Tree. The point of a band is to get out there and play, maybe if the band has enough tracks a varied setlist will mean people will cometo all of them tohear different things, I went to 2 gigs last week by the same artist in different cities and half the crowd were doing 2 or more gigs and it was great because the banter was different and the setlist only shared 4 or 5 songs of a 3 hour set. If you can give the crowd a different experience then i dont see the problem, if they enjoy it they will come back if it'll be different.

Cheers

Stuart

[soundian]

You rehearse in a room' date=' not on a stage. You can't build a following by playing 4 or 5 times in the same city during one month. All you're doing is splitting your audience. The only way I could ever seeing it being beneficial is if every gig was playing to audiences who would never see you otherwise, but in Aberdeen that's not going to happen.

Every band needs live experience, that's true, but it will come in time. They shouldn't risk alienating people through overexposure to gain stage presence. Apart from anything else they run the risk of becoming bored with the whole thing (especially if they're treating it as an extra rehearsal) and nothing looks worse than a band who don't look interested on stage. If they're bored why should we pay any attention?[/quote']

Playing live is such a different thing though. There's stage fright for a start, who doesn't get that before a gig? Remember your first gig with a sound engineer, did you have a clue what was happening?

Getting gigs out of town is a bit more difficult, it's a major operation and very time/money consuming to get a band down to Dundee, Edinburgh, Glasgow so it makes sense to learn stagecraft locally.

I think you might have forgotten how much you've learned over the years.

[GraemeC]

You rehearse in a room' date=' not on a stage. You can't build a following by playing 4 or 5 times in the same city during one month. All you're doing is splitting your audience. The only way I could ever seeing it being beneficial is if every gig was playing to audiences who would never see you otherwise, but in Aberdeen that's not going to happen.

Every band needs live experience, that's true, but it will come in time. They shouldn't risk alienating people through overexposure to gain stage presence. Apart from anything else they run the risk of becoming bored with the whole thing (especially if they're treating it as an extra rehearsal) and nothing looks worse than a band who don't look interested on stage. If they're bored why should we pay any attention?[/quote']

I disagree to a certain extent, a young band new to the scene can get away with playing quite a lot of home gigs, in fact I believe its a must. A band can rehearse until they drop but only playing live teaches them the vital stage craft and how to get a decent live sound and how it feels to play to an audience. They are not ready to play out of town gigs so what else can they do...its very important that promoters can look at it from a bands point of view from time to time...and thankfully Aberdeen have some who do.

G...

[The Milner]

I disagree to a certain extent' date=' a young band new to the scene can get away with playing quite a lot of home gigs, in fact I believe its a must. A band can rehearse until they drop but only playing live teaches them the vital stage craft and how to get a decent live sound and how it feels to play to an audience. They are not ready to play out of town gigs so what else can they do...its very important that promoters can look at it from a bands point of view from time to time...and thankfully Aberdeen have some who do.

G...[/quote']

well said that man.

[framheim]

i've always been an exponent of the 1 gig a month school of thought. i just don't get why anyone would want to overexpose themselves to their core audience like that. okay in your first 3 months of playing live you can get as much gigs as you can but surely after that if you keep playin 2-3 shows a month in the same city then you will alienate your friends and those who should be continually turning up to support the band. if you keeep it to 1 gig a month then you can work on a good set and even work in a new song every gig to keep people coming back. it also makes gigs more of an event.

stage craft is something that comes with experience but how much experience are you getting playing to the drunk regulars in drummonds and an empty dancefloor for the 3rd time in two months? wouldn't bands get more experience playing to 150-300 people every month in a different venue?

of course there are other solutions, acoustic gigs, covers gigs, improv shows and things like that can allow bands to gain experience on stage while not allowing their show to become stale for their core fans.

[framheim]

The reason that I'd like to see the music scene expanded is that this would be the most (and probably only) sustainable way of ensuring that all the venues earn a decent living. Fighting over the same market leads to casualties. Less venues leads to shrinkage of the music scene. The best way forward is to work together to expand the scene' date=' and hit a critical mass whereby it quickly starts to expand all on it's own. This has never been achieved in Aberdeen, and that's why the scene has historically waxed and waned. The population of this city is currently at an all time high - perhaps it's now or never.

***

On the subject of resdiencies and bands gigging in the same town/venue several weeks/nights in a row...

Stayover's situation isn't unique. We helped pull off the same thing with 48K two years previously, before their progress was sadly interrupted. Here's how it works: The Moorings has the advantage of being a popular bar, with free admission most nights, and a large regular customer base. Both the Stayover and 48K residencies were done FOC and free admission. Lot's of people that wouldn't normally pay top see those bands (and some who don't pay to see bands full stop), were exposed to their music. After a month pretty much all our customers had attended at least one of their gigs, and many of them had been to several and started to become familiar with the tunes, no doubt humming them in the shower (or on the toilet) etc.

When 48K later returned to play a Saturday gig with door charge a few months later, many of those people turned out to support them. In the case of Stayover I suspect that their residency contributed to their being voted both best AND worst band (no mean feat) especially taking into account that their was a sizeable contribution of voting forms from Moorings customers.

Both 48K and Stayover also seemed to benefit musically and performance wise from the experience. You could see their confidence growing on stage. Stayovers 4th resident gig during which included guest stars and covers of other bands material (mainly other local bands), topped off by Phillip joining them for Baker Street was possibly the highlight of my year. It's still fondly remembered.

Outside of these very localised experiences, there is also some historical data. Back in 1962 The Beatles played a long residency in Hamburg. This was instrumental in honing their stage craft, making them tight, and developing their look. It never did them any harm either!

If any band is interested in working a residency then please contact me.[/quote']

the needles did a residency at the works many years ago. seem to remember it going down a storm then too. meh, no one has all the answers to promotion and getting people to come to gigs. at the end of the day the general public are fickle bastards who'd rather get drunk and touch up chicks on the dancefloor than come out regularly to watch live music. it's a slow grind but maybe one day we'll win.

[GraemeC]

i've always been an exponent of the 1 gig a month school of thought. i just don't get why anyone would want to overexpose themselves to their core audience like that. okay in your first 3 months of playing live you can get as much gigs as you can but surely after that if you keep playin 2-3 shows a month in the same city then you will alienate your friends and those who should be continually turning up to support the band. if you keeep it to 1 gig a month then you can work on a good set and even work in a new song every gig to keep people coming back. it also makes gigs more of an event.

stage craft is something that comes with experience but how much experience are you getting playing to the drunk regulars in drummonds and an empty dancefloor for the 3rd time in two months? wouldn't bands get more experience playing to 150-300 people every month in a different venue?

of course there are other solutions' date=' acoustic gigs, covers gigs, improv shows and things like that can allow bands to gain experience on stage while not allowing their show to become stale for their core fans.[/quote']

I dont think it matters a jot if all a bands fans come out every time....some fans will like one venue and some another, if they play mid month when no one has any cash or at the end of the month when punters are flush it makes a difference.

When a band has a proven regular local following then its time to cut down the frequency and make each gig an event.

[Grafyte]

Dundee have pillars around town which can be postered, but there is a fee, last time I did it, I had 5 or 6 A0 ones put up and it cost me about 25 quid. But saying that they are in perfect places for the public to see. After stuggling with a gig at the Lo Down in Aberdeen this weekend, it would be a smart move to do something similar in Aberdeen.

[malloty]

I dont think it matters a jot if all a bands fans come out every time....some fans will like one venue and some another' date=' if they play mid month when no one has any cash or at the end of the month when punters are flush it makes a difference.

When a band has a proven regular local following then its time to cut down the frequency and make each gig an event.[/quote']

all bands should be aiming to make every gig an event from the start .part of the learnin process is working out where you wil get your fanbase to go to to ensure you get a big crowd... for us it was the lemon tree, but we knew for a fact that our support wouldnt follow us to say Moshulu so we wouldnt play there... i am sure the converse is true for a lot of bands

wat is the point in playing wee gigs to one man and his dog. the only bands where playing heaps of gigs in a month work is the bands that do covers and doing a residency you might as well do that as you are just background music. you practice in rehearsal and nothing gives you more confidence than playing to big crowds and the opposite is also true in that playing to no one does nothing for the confidence or development.

i would imagine doing a residence you are playing to people who would be there anyway so the i would imagine the majority of the people there are not really following the band you may turn a few new fans but for the most part you could just have the jukebox.

within the one gig a month the exception should be any decent support slots that a local band can get as this always brings the band to a totally new audience as generally if the band has charted you get a heap of starf***ers at the gigs who would never normally go near a local bands gig.

[The Milner]

all bands should be aiming to make every gig an event from the start .part of the learnin process is working out where you wil get your fanbase to go to to ensure you get a big crowd... for us it was the lemon tree' date=' but we knew for a fact that our support wouldnt follow us to say Moshulu so we wouldnt play there... i am sure the converse is true for a lot of bands

wat is the point in playing wee gigs to one man and his dog. the only bands where playing heaps of gigs in a month work is the bands that do covers and doing a residency you might as well do that as you are just background music. you practice in rehearsal and nothing gives you more confidence than playing to big crowds and the opposite is also true in that playing to no one does nothing for the confidence or development.

i would imagine doing a residence you are playing to people who would be there anyway so the i would imagine the majority of the people there are not really following the band you may turn a few new fans but for the most part you could just have the jukebox.

within the one gig a month the exception should be any decent support slots that a local band can get as this always brings the band to a totally new audience as generally if the band has charted you get a heap of starf***ers at the gigs who would never normally go near a local bands gig.[/quote']

some good points but i really disagree with the part about cover bands or bands doing residencys, i also play in a cover band and i can assure you when we play we are far more than just background music, also having played a residency at the moorings, again i can assure you were we more than background music.

[GraemeC]

all bands should be aiming to make every gig an event from the start .part of the learnin process is working out where you wil get your fanbase to go to to ensure you get a big crowd... for us it was the lemon tree' date=' but we knew for a fact that our support wouldnt follow us to say Moshulu so we wouldnt play there... i am sure the converse is true for a lot of bands

wat is the point in playing wee gigs to one man and his dog. the only bands where playing heaps of gigs in a month work is the bands that do covers and doing a residency you might as well do that as you are just background music. you practice in rehearsal and nothing gives you more confidence than playing to big crowds and the opposite is also true in that playing to no one does nothing for the confidence or development.

i would imagine doing a residence you are playing to people who would be there anyway so the i would imagine the majority of the people there are not really following the band you may turn a few new fans but for the most part you could just have the jukebox.

within the one gig a month the exception should be any decent support slots that a local band can get as this always brings the band to a totally new audience as generally if the band has charted you get a heap of starf***ers at the gigs who would never normally go near a local bands gig.[/quote']

Thats fine for you're band but its not the case when we are talking about young inexperienced bands, I think playing to the bar staff is an experience every band should have or they end up getting ideas wayyyyyy above their station, its a very "Aberdeen thing" where certain bands (normally indie) seem to attract often sell out crowds to the Lemon Tree, these audiences are never seen out at other bands gigs and always seem to be slightly older...the only other time they might be seen is at an Oasis gig or the Australian Pink Floyd.

[Flash@TMB]

This photo shows a couple a bored barstaff, and a handful of punters scattered around, thinking they are listening to the jukebox.

Or perhaps not. Stayover's residency in July '05. The 3rd and 4th weeks were even busier but I can't track down photos. At the 4th gig I'd estimate there were in the region of 170 people.

[soundian]

Now that we've all got that out of our system, can we get back on topic.

Flash's ideas for more co-operation between venues,promoters etc are, imo, worth following up.

I'd be willing to go round the venues testing the water if I had something in writing to show them.

[malloty]

sorry no offence just a personal opinion, i just dont have time for cover bands and i suppose i have never had any experience of doing a residency so i am probably not totally clued up... house band just makes me think of the dave letterman show for some reason!

I still stand by the point that band benefit more playin to people than to no one. i reckon any local based band could get a good sized crowd once a month even if they were only forcing there mates to come along. as we were talking about promotion i just think that with that in mind the venues benefit from bigger crowds as do the bands as if the bands make the bar money they will get better money next time as well as better gigs on better nights.

regards promoters they are only as good as the bands they put on. if they get the right touring band they will get the crowd. I think it is more about the line ups than the promotion, i am sure all venues have there top bands that they know will work hard and pull a crowd hence they get the best support slots over and over again. i guess the real skill is putting on the right bands together to ensure that the fanbase of each band cross polenates each other ensuring that lesser supported bands grow there fan base to make them a better asset to the venue. in this way promoters and bookers probably do a lot of good work for bands in terms of exposing them to a potential fanbase that will be warm and receptive to their sound.

i also take on Grame C point about lemon tree crowds which is exactly what i was saying it is about finding the venue that people will come to see you in

[Flash@TMB]

Now that we've all got that out of our system' date=' can we get back on topic.

Flash's ideas for more co-operation between venues,promoters etc are, imo, worth following up.

I'd be willing to go round the venues testing the water if I had something in writing to show them.[/quote']

Thanks Ian!

I reckon it would be possible to accomplish most of the groundwork on-line and out in the open, and there are benefits in doing so. It's not just the venues that would be involved. So this is as good a place as any!

To re-cap here's the list from earlier. I've made a few ammendments:

1) Friendly quaterly meetings between all participants.

2) Cross posting. Everywhere puts up everyone's posters. Fact is that people are going to find out about gigs and events anyway so this doesn't do any harm. What it does do is make things appear less insular.

3) Combined flyering, and shared flyers. In other words bigger flyers that advertise multiple events at various venues and organised by various promoters. That way there is a greater chance of something on the flyer appealing to the person receiving it. We also hit economies of scale in terms of printing and distribution costs usually only available to bigger operations. It's also a strong display of unity. It shows that we all care about the scene as a whole.

4) Direct shared funding of the GCG (if they want it). This is a subtle change but it sends the right message. Perhaps this is something that would also benefit aberdeen-music.com???

5) Combined events. This could be made to work really well, especially in the summer.

6) Co-ordination and integration of activities. In other words trying not to offer competing events at the same time, but instead working to ensure that if one X is being offered in one location then Y is being offered somewhere else. This maximises everyones revenues since we avoid splitting the market. It's the cartel principle. This sort of already takes place, but it could probablt be refined further. It's never going to be possible to completely avoid clashes though.

7) Special offers - the feeder bar principle. Basically the bars encourage their customers to move on to certain clubs at closing time, and in return those clubs encourage their customers to frequent those bars. The ususal method is that the clubs provide the bars with vouchers to distribute (after an agreed time like 11pm) which offer reduced admission, or X% off your first drink etc... The cost of the vouchers, and even the offer itself can even be shared between the participants. Now lets face it, people are going to drink in bars before they continue on to clubs. But do we want them drinking is chain bars or would we like to support out fellow independents. Likewise people are going to continue on to clubs after the bars shit... and so forth.

8) Shared resources. There are certain things we all pay for that could probably be procured more cost effectively in bulk. In order to protect everyone the payment could be accrued up front.

9) Music scene promotional activites and materials. Doing things to raise overall awareness of our music scene, and perhaps putting our promotional materials that extoll a particular virtue of it.

10) Include periphery businesses in this, for instance recording studios, clothes shops, music shops. Anyone independent that is part of the scene. This important thing would be that EVERYONE connected with the music scene is invited to join, and that nobody is excluded.

***

Competition favours the strong and those with the most resources. All we are doing by competing is clearing the decks to make room for a chain from down South.

The Moorings is a minor player in all this. We only put on a couple of gigs a week at most, and pretty much the only thing that could pose a threat to the bar is rising sea levels. So perhaps I'm seeing things more clearly?

Let's start by slaying the demon of cross posting. Imagine one person owned all the venues. Would they cross post between them? Damn right! Why? Because it would increase their overall revenue. So if it increases revenue overall, then it obviously increases revenue on a per venue basis. So it's good for all us independents too. It works even better when used in combination with a vouchers scheme.

Although the venues may see themselves in direct competition with each other, most of the people in the target market, spend plenty of time (and money) drinking elsewhere in town.

[Guest Bob Double Jack]

Thats fine for you're band but its not the case when we are talking about young inexperienced bands' date=' I think playing to the bar staff is an experience every band should have or they end up getting ideas wayyyyyy above their station.[/quote']

a very very valid point. There does eventually get a time for your mates when the novelty of "their pal playing in a band" wears out, and you have to then try and appeal to the real public. And if that means playing to 3 folk, then so be it! It is real character building.

If those 3 people like you, and stay for the whole night - great. If they get up and leave, not so good.

Also, looking pissed off about the size of the crowd does not help in any way - you've still got to give it 110% and more.

[GraemeC]

a very very valid point. There does eventually get a time for your mates when the novelty of "their pal playing in a band" wears out' date=' and you have to then try and appeal to the real public. And if that means playing to 3 folk, then so be it! It is real character building.

If those 3 people like you, and stay for the whole night - great. If they get up and leave, not so good.

Also, looking pissed off about the size of the crowd does not help in any way - you've still got to give it 110% and more.[/quote']

I can remember several occasions when I was working with Liber/wish when punters approached me after a poorly attended out of town gig to say how impressed they were with the bands performance concidering the poor turn out, My reply was always the same, remember and tell your friends about them.

If a band plays well to six punters there will be twenty at the next one and so on.... fanbase!!

[stuartmaxwell]

if they get the right touring band they will get the crowd.

good one

[Flash@TMB]

Bump.

It's weird! You'd think it would be almost common sense for the other venues to cross post with at least The Moorings. Here's why:

The Moorings does one gig each week (count them).

Everywhere else does several gigs each week.

So if the theory that cross posting would somehow lure customers away, then surely The Moorings would be the place that would suffer most LOL.

DOH!

[SuperMike!]

I've given up trying to follow the whole thread as i'm tired so i appologise if anyone else has covered these 2 things:

1) Lemon Tree booker - apparently now does the booking for Perth COncert Hall, thus his move down here, and no longer does the Lemon Tree. That's what i was told anyway!

2) Postering in Dundee - there are two forms. The free service is for A4 posters to be placed on one of a small number of two sided boards dotted around the city centre. They've taken a couple away due to building work though. It's just a case of handing them in and allowing plenty of time before the gig for them to go up. I usually try and hand them in at least 2 weeks before as it can take a week for them to go up. You can also pay to have larger posters (A0) put up around the city on the big boards, which there are many more of. Its not something i've ever done, but i know people who have.