ID Cards?

[Guest tv tanned]

Yes, Shadow Home Secretary Tony Blair bringing raucous applause at the 1995 Labour Conference.

[Cloud]

Yes' date=' Shadow Home Secretary Tony Blair bringing raucous applause at the 1995 Labour Conference.[/quote']

How much does it cost to join the SNP then?

*is joining up*

[Hugh_Jazz]

so why spend 15-20 billion for something we already have?

Partly because not everybody has a passport, mortgage, bank account, credit card etc.....but everyone would be expected to have an ID card.

Not saying that I'm necessarily an advocate of ID cards, but that's one reason for them.

[threeornothing]

The only ID I'll carry is a donor card....

I'm looking into a bank which can provide me a Visa Electron card without needing to bear my name or signature....

I have a name, not a number....and you ain't gettin either!!

[soundian]

If they can forge peoples identities in countries with identity cards they can do it here as well. Faking biometric data will be commonplace almost as soon as they introduce it. It's only a pile of 1s and 0s, how difficult is it if you know the formula?

p.s. Think about how difficult is is at the moment to convince people you've had your identity nicked, then think about how much harder it'll be with this 20 billion "infallible" system saying it was you that spent 2000 on a holiday to Cyprus.

[The Milner]

exactly is it not worrying to people to think that all your details will be in one computer or mainframe and lets be honest someone WILL manage to hack it, then you could be fucked someone steals your identity, bank accounts ect.

Okay some people will say this is a breach of your civil liberites, but the government already has this information on you already. The only difference will be is that they will be able to tie it to a photograph (unless you already have a passport or photo driving licence of which they will have it already) & your biometric information.

They dont already have everyones finger prints nor everyones biometric data so yes it will be a "breach".

[Sue Denim..]

The only people that should fear this are the ones that are breaking the law.

You make the assumption that our government will always be unintrusive and trustworthy. What if the BNP or another less trusting government came into power? Do you believe for one second that the biometric data would not be used for racial means?

This is exactly how the Nazi party distinguished 2nd and 3rd generation of Jewish ancestry during the 2nd world war.

[Frosty Jack]

Ummm...Where did you get this reference from? Because Tony Blair was certainly not Shadow Home Secretary in 1995. That was Jack Straw.

The quote is correct, and it was said by Tony, but he was actually Party Leader at the time.

[Me and Parvati]

The British civil service can't buy anything more technologically advanced than a pencil without fucking it up. I guarantee that they'll spend billions and end up with a system with the functionality of a knackered gameboy. I want to know how to get on their approved suppliers list so's I can bid for the job.

And if once more in my lifetime some smug twat says 'if you've done nothing wrong, you've nothing to worry about', I'm coming round to banjo them. That's not the point.

[Snakebite]

You make the assumption that our government will always be unintrusive and trustworthy. What if the BNP or another less trusting government came into power? Do you believe for one second that the biometric data would not be used for racial means?

This is exactly how the Nazi party distinguished 2nd and 3rd generation of Jewish ancestry during the 2nd world war.

Well I think you need to ask the British people who they want to be in government. Unless we suddenly all become racist overnight, I dont think party's like the BNP will ever be in power. The UK is multicultural society and it will always be that way.

Im not assuming that the government departments like the police & MI5 will not use the data stored, Of course they will. Hopefully it will be used correctly to make the UK a better place with less crime since it will be harder to get away with it. The main crime it should be able to deter is fraud since the card on it's own will not be enough for it to be used to prove identity. You will still need to provide one of your biometric details i.e. fingerprint when applying for credit which will then be cross checked against the card & the secure database which should also be able to provide a cross check of your photo that is on the database against you and the card. Therefore copying the card will not be enough without the person the card belongs to, since you wont be able to change the information held on the database.

The data on the card will be highly encrypted (using the public/private key approach which is very hard to crack) and if the database is setup right this information and the biometric information given (which should also be encrypted by the machine that reads it) would be sent to the database direct. The database itself will then decrypt the information in a secure environment and then interrogate the database to confirm your identity. Then the relevant information that is needed i.e. Photo, address, age etc will then be shown so that it can be cross checked to prove that the person is who they say they are and that the details match what is printed on the ID card.

The only people that will have direct access to the database will be authorised government departments. Financial institutions may have direct access to certain parts relevant to credit checking & proving ID, but this will be strictly controlled.

Everyone else i.e. employers will only have indirect access via a government department i.e. Tax office or police (if working with children for example) to prove your ID.

For ID cards to work correctly it has to be compulsary. If the scheme was voluntary it wont work.

Credit card company's at the moment are trialing fingerprint technology to replace the PIN number used with their cards, which I can see being implemented with in the next couple of years irrespective of ID cards. Even the Chip & PIN at the moment is making it harder to commit fraud since even if you copy the card you cant use it without the PIN number, the same will apply with using biometric information whereby one cannot be used without the other.

[Snakebite]

Current estimate of cost for this scheme is presently between about 15 - 20 billion pounds. The only way this is going to be possible is by charging everyone at least 200 per card. How many people are going to willingly pay that much for something which offers nothing that we don't have already? That means the running costs of chasing up people without cards will be consistently huge. Not to mention the running costs to produce new and replacement cards with such complicated technology.

The technology. Will it work? "No scheme on this scale has been undertaken anywhere in the world. Smaller and less ambitious schemes have encountered substantial technological and operational problems that are likely to be amplified in a large-scale national system. The use of biometrics creates particular concerns' date=' because this technology has never been used at such a scale."

Security. Will the scheme increase security? No system can be entirely secure, and if this one is compromised, it's going to be a virtual one-stop shop for identity fraud. Everything the villains need in one go. And what happens if someone does nick your biometric information? If your bank details are copied they can be changed. Even your passport can be cancelled and changed. But you can't change your biometrics. Once someone has them, they can be you for life.

Tell me why this is worth doing again?[/quote']

If you look at it as a long term investment spread over the next 10-15 years then the cost savings from each department once the system is fully up and running will pay for the initial expense. You cannot look at it as being one big bill that has to be paid now. I think the government will borrow to pay for it initially then use the money that they save in the long term to repay the money borrowed. After which, the cost to the taxpayer will be a lot less.

As the saying goes "You have to spend money to save money".

The cost of the actual card itself seems to have been blown out of proportion. The costs are for the hardware developed to take the biometric information & make the cards. The cost of each card will be very small. Therefore the running costs for replacing your ID card every 10 years to change your photo will be no more than replacing your photo driving licence. Even some credit cards & Student ID cards currently have your photo on it as well as the chip and I dont see them asking for 200 a pop for getting one of their cards.

With regards to chasing up people that dont get an ID card they shouldnt have to. Since without one they wont be able to get benefits, pension, credit, access to healthcare or even a job. Even those that are working already will be checked by at least the tax office via employers to ensure that everyone in their employ has an ID card of which Im sure company's will be fined if they do not comply just the same way as it is right now for employing immigrants that dont have a valid work permit.

Even if ID cards are never issued, this central database will be created. The use of ID cards with it is probably the only way of ensuring that mistakes are not made with someone assuming your identity. Since the ID card will help prevent identity theft.

Okay yes someone could acquire a copy of your biometric information that is held on the card or even you fingerprints or retinal scan but how does that allow them to use that information without them being you. How do you physically change your retina to match the stolen information so that it can pass say a retinal scan.

The people that will have access to the biometric scanning devices that are linked to the database will have to physically activate the machines with their own biometric ID before asking for your biometric ID. Im sure that this will be strictly vetted.

ID cards will only be used alongside physically supplying your biometric information by government departments & finanicial institutions. You wont find it in your local shop.

[Snakebite]

The identity cards Bill that is being passed through Parliament can be found at the following Website address:

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200506/cmbills/009/2006009.htm

There is also a government website dedicated to explaining all about ID cards

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/comrace/identitycards/index.html

It will be issued at the sametime as your Passport and will be integral to using your passport for getting in the US for instance. Initially the ID card will be issued as people renew or apply for a passport, however it is intended to make the card compulsory and after what happened in London on thursday I think this will happen sooner rather than later.

Once it becomes compulsary a fine of upto 2500 will be imposed on those that refuse to get an ID card.

With regards to cost to the individual an amendment to the bill has been made that states:

"Clause 37, page 31, line 39, at end insert 'but no fee shall be imposed for a card issued in consequence of an order by the Secretary of State for compulsory registration.'."

The 15-20 billion cost to setup the ID card scheme initially is the same as cost incurred by organised crime to the UK tax payer every year. Introducing ID cards will erradicate most of this annual burden incurred by organised crime.

The European Union has also started the process of issuing biometric passports, so eventually you will need to give up your biometric information to travel around europe.

Therefore all UK passports will have biometric information on it anyway in order to comply with european requirements.

[Sue Denim..]

The 15-20 billion cost to setup the ID card scheme initially is the same as cost incurred by organised crime to the UK tax payer every year. Introducing ID cards will erradicate most of this annual burden incurred by organised crime.

...Of course it will.

[Snakebite]

...Of course it will.

What I mean of course is the reduction of benefit fraud & identity theft

If you can think of a better way to combat it, please give us your comments for discussion

[Snakebite]

The British civil service can't buy anything more technologically advanced than a pencil without fucking it up. I guarantee that they'll spend billions and end up with a system with the functionality of a knackered gameboy. I want to know how to get on their approved suppliers list so's I can bid for the job.

And if once more in my lifetime some smug twat says 'if you've done nothing wrong' date=' you've nothing to worry about', I'm coming round to banjo them. That's not the point. [/quote']

If you look at the UK some of the most popular degrees are in Computer Science. This has got to the point in that there is a greater supply of computer science graduates than there are jobs.

I would hope out of all these people we can find some that are actually competent to carry out the task of building this Database system and actually making it work.

[Sue Denim..]

What I mean of course is the reduction of benefit fraud & identity theft

If you can think of a better way to combat it' date=' please give us your comments for discussion[/quote']

So you believe that everyone should have to fork out for an ID card to combat those people that commit fraud?

Why should I pay for someone elses crimes?

[lepeep]

and the naievety that this technology can't be replicated (in any way)...

if it's the biometric part that's the hard part, will this only be used at airports / ports ?

or, are bobbies going to get portible retinal scanners for the beat ?

I am with Sue, it's the people with nothing to hide, nothing to prove who will have to pay, for what looks like, a gimmick. what's the matter with hiring new police, intelligence, surveylence equipment, border controls for 20 billion ?

or, perhaps channel 20 billion into trying to help the middle east ?

I just don't think a peice of plastic with a chip in it is going to stop a suicide bomber.

"right boys, pack it in, stop being criminals, we've been rumbeled, we need cards that prove who we are, and I can't put 'criminal' on my entry form...can I? how about 'smooth criminal', they'll think I am jacko..."

[Snakebite]

So you believe that everyone should have to fork out for an ID card to combat those people that commit fraud?

Why should I pay for someone elses crimes?

For start you already are paying for someone elses crimes in the region of 20 billion a year due to tax & benefit fraud comitted by organised crime.

If you read my previous posts if ID cards become compulsory then there will be no fee to get an ID card as stated on the Identity Cards Bill that is being passed through parliament.

The 15-20 billion required initially for ID cards is a one off bill and will not be spent each year. Unlike the annual costs incurred by organised crime of which will be drastically reduced if ID cards are made compulsory.

While ID cards are still voluntary a fee will be incurred but it will be a lot less than the cost of a passport. The only compulsory thing for the moment is that when you renew or get a passport you will be issued with an ID card at the same time, you wont be able to get a passport without getting an ID card as well.

If it stays voluntary I can still see it being a requirement to have one to get credit as financial institutions will eventually insist on using it to prove identity mainly on the basis it will give them access to all of your previous addresses or deedpoll name changes for credit checking purposes.

[Snakebite]

and the naievety that this technology can't be replicated (in any way)...

if it's the biometric part that's the hard part' date=' will this only be used at airports / ports ?

or, are bobbies going to get portible retinal scanners for the beat ?

I am with Sue, it's the people with nothing to hide, nothing to prove who will have to pay, for what looks like, a gimmick. what's the matter with hiring new police, intelligence, surveylence equipment, border controls for 20 billion ?

or, perhaps channel 20 billion into trying to help the middle east ?

I just don't think a peice of plastic with a chip in it is going to stop a suicide bomber.

"right boys, pack it in, stop being criminals, we've been rumbeled, we need cards that prove who we are, and I can't put 'criminal' on my entry form...can I? how about 'smooth criminal', they'll think I am jacko..."[/quote']

For a start the police already have access to criminal records & photos whilst on the beat thanks to their new digital communications network (called Airwave) that went online nationally earlier this year. So i dont see it being too much of an issue to add to this to allow them to check peoples identities.

The 20 billion we would save every year due to fraud, by issuing ID cards to stop fraud alone far out weighs the initial cost.

I think then the 20 billion we save every year could be put to good use like you say to help the middle east amongst other things.

ID cards are a small part of what is required combat terrorism. The following link is for the Prevention of terrorism bill that was introduced this year:

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200405/cmbills/061/2005061.htm

This states all of the measures that are being put in place to combat terrorism

[lepeep]

I think I am coming round to this form of fighting crime, if any crime is comitted after they are introduced, will we all get a rebate of say a pound each, for every crime comitted that could have been stopped with the card ?

win win situation for the good guys, snakey, I am with you all the way. 100%

Last edited by no one 10 mins ago.

[Snakebite]

I think I am coming round to this form of fighting crime' date=' if any crime is comitted after they are introduced, will we all get a rebate of say a pound each, for every crime comitted that could have been stopped with the card ?

[/quote']

Your missing the point, fraud by organised crime currently costs every person 200 a year each.

As far a fraud alone is concerned ID cards will help put a stop to it especially with benefit fraud.

Im not saying it will stop people murdering everyone or theives stealing things, but the biometric information will help catch them.

[Snakebite]

and the naievety that this technology can't be replicated (in any way)...

if it's the biometric part that's the hard part' date=' will this only be used at airports / ports ?

or, are bobbies going to get portible retinal scanners for the beat ?

[/quote']

See the following website that gives details of what the Airwave system can do:

http://www.fife.police.uk/Airwave/home.php

Note at the bottom of the website page about the ability already to transmit & receive fingerprint details.

[The Milner]

Your missing the point' date=' fraud by organised crime currently costs every person 200 a year each.

[/quote']

i can %100 guarentee you that it doesnt cost me 200 a year.

[Me and Parvati]

If you look at the UK some of the most popular degrees are in Computer Science. This has got to the point in that there is a greater supply of computer science graduates than there are jobs.

Oh, bugger, well, we're definitely fucked now. Geeks a gogo. By the way, who is this child? Charles Clarke's eldest? Naive doesn't come close. 'Mummy, my teddy's stopped breathing..'

[Snakebite]

Oh' date=' bugger, well, we're definitely fucked now. Geeks a gogo. By the way, who is this child? Charles Clarke's eldest? Naive doesn't come close. 'Mummy, my teddy's stopped breathing..'[/quote']

If it wasnt for your so called geeks this website wouldnt exist for you to harp on about teddy bears.

Fair enough there are incompetent people in the UK but I guess you will always have that. It is however as in many cases the fact that these systems that didnt work initially all point to one thing and that is that the people in charge are not always able to understand the complexities of writing software that works. They are put into a position where they decide when to start using new systems and they always seem to insist it is done before they have been fully tested. Therefore you will always get problems initially. Which is the price of politics.

I believe that the government will hopefully have learned their lesson and will ensure the National Identity Register as it is being called will be fully tested before implementation since they cannot now afford to make mistakes especially since what happened on thursday in London.

If you can give us something constructive to show the cons of implementing ID cards im all for you to express it.