ID Cards?

[Guest tv tanned]

well lets just magic some new police out of the ground then shall we.

if you look at it like that' date=' ID cards can be created more easily than new police can be recruited.[/quote']

It's not just about what is 'easy' to do.

[Hugh_Jazz]

The best bit is that' date=' according to Jack McConnell, you won't need an ID card for "devolved services" which means essentially that you don't need one to receive health treatment, but you will to pick up benefits/pension. And if the police stop you for a terrorism offence they can ask you for your ID card, but not for burglary, because terrorism is reserved to Westminster.

Madness.

As for stopping crime. It doesn't, more police would. I was told at the weekend that it would end problems with kids trying to buy a 15 cert. game/movie but not being able to prove they were 15.

I think for the cost, you'd want something slightly more sophisticated than a glorified proof of age card.[/quote']

Say for the sake of argument that you had your wish, and there had been a million police in London. Without them doing spot-searches on every man and his dog, how would that have caught the bombers?

[Guest tv tanned]

it wouldn't, and i never contended that it would have, so please do not put non-existent sentiments in my mouth.

ID cards, however, would not stop them either, so no score draw there.

Let us hypothesise, however, that we have more police on our streets in the near future, patrolling round areas of high crime.

Do you think it more or less likely that criminals will be (i) deterred and (ii) caught quicker than if everyone has to carry an expensive piece of plastic with lots of details on it?

[Spoonie]

It's not just about what is 'easy' to do.

but it is about taking steps to solve the problems now and the process of creating and issuing these cards to the masses could be initiated overnight, whereas increasing the levels of policing, without ending up with a drop in quality of the police we have, can't be.

of course this doesn't help when terrorist organisations are recruiting technically proficient muslim students with no previous criminal convictions as it appears they are.

[Hugh_Jazz]

it wouldn't' date=' and i never contended that it would have, so please do not put non-existent sentiments in my mouth.

ID cards, however, would not stop them either, so no score draw there.

Let us hypothesise, however, that we have more police on our streets in the near future, patrolling round areas of high crime.

Do you think it more or less likely that criminals will be (i) deterred and (ii) caught quicker than if everyone has to carry an expensive piece of plastic with lots of details on it?[/quote']

Easy tiger....chill chill, just trying to have a discussion about this. What's the point in starting a thread if you're only intention is to lambast every poster who dares to challenge your opinion? It was a fair question, so I asked it.

I wasnt putting any sentiments of any kind into your mouth. You're obviously right that generally speaking, more police = less crime. But we're talking about a special type of crime here.....if people are willing to blow themselves up, I'm a bit sceptical about whether they'll give a monkeys about how many police are patrolling the streets.

I'm not necessarily an advocate of ID cards but I can see certain benefits (and not all of them related to terrorism - would be an ideal way of age enforcement IMO), but if the costs are as high as have been reported, then agreed, I'd prefer we didnt go down that route. The point has been made elsewhere, but I believe the "infringement of privacy" argument is rather facile given the amount of detail the govt knows about us already.

If you accept the argument that there is a significant risk of terrorists arriving in the UK as illegal immigrants, then we need a means of identifying 'real' citizens from fake. Tightening border controls would clearly help, but there are countless thousands of them already in the country so this would be too little too late. Not everyone has a passport or a drivers license....so ID cards could be an option. It's certainly not a cure-all solution, and there would be lots of potential problems (eg.forgery). It's just another tool that the police can use, but even if it's gives us a fractionally higher chance of stopping events like we saw last week, then I think it would be a crap idea to idly dismiss it out-of-hand.

The cynics amongst us might not agree, but I doubt even the govt would have mooted the idea without them seriously thinking it would help the police.

[Snakebite]

You won't need an ID card to mug someone' date=' break into their house, steal their car, sell them drugs etc. How does this stop crime exactly?[/quote']

It will help stop fraud & identity theft

[Snakebite]

What bollocks.

Get an ID card' date=' it'll cost you less tax that way.

I've been trying to count the many different justifications which have been used for the introduction of these things. So far about the only thing they're not promising they can provide is a cheese and pickle toastie and a hand-job.[/quote']

The average person is paying 200 each extra in tax every year already to replace the government funds that are either being fraudulently claimed in benefit or because of VAT that isnt being given to the government due to piracy by organised crime.

If ID cards cards are introduced then it will tackle fraud & Identity theft

[lepeep]

It will help stop fraud & identity theft

or make it more challenging and interesting for the criminals who know how to do it "full time".

you seem to forget that it's the criminals that are one step ahead of the Law.

remember, the sasser worm was created by a 17 year old (caught, granted), but that's horses and barn doors, really.

I still think that "slowing" terrorism (as it'll never be stopped) is for more people round the world to think "peace" and not "us vs them".

spend billions on finding out how to make people see the other side, that's the key.

(I vote a big ball pool, with kittens to hold when not playing in the pool....who can resist a kitten and a play in a ball pool ?)...

* then there was peace * a-men

[Snakebite]

The best bit is that' date=' according to Jack McConnell, you won't need an ID card for "devolved services" which means essentially that you don't need one to receive health treatment, but you will to pick up benefits/pension. And if the police stop you for a terrorism offence they can ask you for your ID card, but not for burglary, because terrorism is reserved to Westminster.

Madness.

As for stopping crime. It doesn't, more police would. I was told at the weekend that it would end problems with kids trying to buy a 15 cert. game/movie but not being able to prove they were 15.

I think for the cost, you'd want something slightly more sophisticated than a glorified proof of age card.[/quote']

The identity card bill is a national bill. Westminister will ensure it is used to cover the entire country. It has to be done this way for the system to work otherwise you will get people that are not entitled to free medical care travelling from England to Scotland for treatment because they know they wont be asked for ID. All that will do is overload our already streched Health Service.

[lepeep]

[Snakebite]

or make it more challenging and interesting for the criminals who know how to do it "full time".

you seem to forget that it's the criminals that are one step ahead of the Law.

remember' date=' the sasser worm was created by a 17 year old (caught, granted), but that's horses and barn doors, really.

I still think that "slowing" terrorism (as it'll never be stopped) is for more people round the world to think "peace" and not "us vs them".

spend billions on finding out how to make people see the other side, that's the key.

(I vote a big ball pool, with kittens to hold when not playing in the pool....who can resist a kitten and a play in a ball pool ?)...

* then there was peace * a-men[/quote']

The money the government will save by using ID cards to tackle fraud will initally be used to recoup the cost of introducing ID cards. Afterwhich the additional money that is saved can be used for better education & health care

[Snakebite]

The Biometric information that is collected will also be used to help catch people that commit crime. Well at least those that are careless enough to leave clues in the form of fingerprints etc. Which on the most part are the majority of criminals.

[Frosty Jack]

The money the government will save by using ID cards to tackle fraud will initally be used to recoup the cost of introducing ID cards. Afterwhich the additional money that is saved can be used for better education & health care

Where are you getting your figures from?

Because an impartial report from the London School of Economics seems to disagree.

Par example -

"the government estimates that identity fraud crimes may cost up to 1.3 billion a year, but only 35 million of this amount can be addressed by an ID card."

That's 2.7%.

[The Milner]

The Biometric information that is collected will also be used to help catch people that commit crime. Well at least those that are careless enough to leave clues in the form of fingerprints etc. Which on the most part are the majority of criminals.

are you a detective?

Anyway you keep going on about money fraud these people arnt your "majority" of criminals, most of these guys are smarter than the police anyway.

Whatever way you try and dress it up i really fail to see how these things will help in crime, fraund will still exsist they will adapt to the new technology like they have done for years and years.

[Penny]

are you a detective?

Anyway you keep going on about money fraud these people arnt your "majority" of criminals' date=' most of these guys are smarter than the police anyway.

Whatever way you try and dress it up i really fail to see how these things will help in crime, fraund will still exsist they will adapt to the new technology like they have done for years and years.[/quote']

i don't think he was talking about money fraud in his last statement?!

i think what he was trying to say was the fact that it is the majority of most criminals as a whole who leave fingerprints, and the fact that the ID cards will contain a copy of our prints, it will benefit the police on how to catch criminals of ALL SORTS who leave their prints behind..

[Snakebite]

Where are you getting your figures from?

Because an impartial report from the London School of Economics seems to disagree.

Par example -

"the government estimates that identity fraud crimes may cost up to 1.3 billion a year' date=' but only 35 million of this amount can be addressed by an ID card."

That's 2.7%.[/quote']

I agree Identity theft costs 1.3 billion but fraud costs more see below

The 20 billion taken by organised crime come from this source on page 1 half way down

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/docs4/Id_Cards_Briefing.pdf

The ID cards website is on this link

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/comrace/identitycards/index.html

And the Identity Cards Bill is at this link

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200506/cmbills/009/2006009.htm

[The Milner]

i don't think he was talking about money fraud in his last statement?!

i think what he was trying to say was the fact that it is the majority of most criminals as a whole who leave fingerprints' date=' and the fact that the ID cards will contain a copy of our prints, it will benefit the police on how to catch criminals of ALL SORTS who leave their prints behind..

[/quote']

ok fair point.

But think about it this way, criminals wear masks to cover their faces as its easy from cctv to find out who you are if you dont, and for the most part your right they prob dont wear gloves or anything and will leave behind prints but as is pointed out the police do not (yet) have everyones prints so its hard for them to be traced. Once these cards are introduced however is it not likely that again criminals WILL adapt and start to pay more attention to stuff like that, its not THAT hard to get fake finger prints or proper golves.

All im trying to say is that criminals will get round this, just because the government has your prints or whatever doesnt mean people wont try harder to commit a crime.

[Hugh_Jazz]

ok fair point.

But think about it this way' date=' criminals wear masks to cover their faces as its easy from cctv to find out who you are if you dont, and for the most part your right they prob dont wear gloves or anything and will leave behind prints but as is pointed out the police do not (yet) have everyones prints so its hard for them to be traced. Once these cards are introduced however is it not likely that again criminals WILL adapt and start to pay more attention to stuff like that, its not THAT hard to get fake finger prints or proper golves.

All im trying to say is that criminals will get round this, just because the government has your prints or whatever doesnt mean people wont try harder to commit a crime.[/quote']

Re. fingerprinting, not every criminal is as careful as u suggest. I would wager that a high percentage of burglaries are caused by druggies wanting their next fix. These fuckers arent the most rational thinkers, and if the police already had their fingerprints, there would definitely be more arrests IMO.

Murderers and rapists arent all professional hitmen either. A central fingerprint database would be very useful i reckon..

[Penny]

there already is a huge fingerprint database in Britain, it just needs everyone to be on it!!

also.. on the ID cards, it will have your DNA from both hair and blood samples, and it will have your blood-type.

everything helps, and i don't think we should always be so critical about the government trying to the right thing.. they are taking small steps, that may in the future turn into a huge brilliant promising outlook for us all.

[threeornothing]

Re. fingerprinting' date=' not every criminal is as careful as u suggest. I would wager that a high percentage of burglaries are caused by druggies wanting their next fix. These fuckers arent the most rational thinkers, and if the police already had their fingerprints, there would definitely be more arrests IMO.[/quote']

You've obviously never been a victim of this, they get put in a cell overnight and get a 60 fine payable at 2 per month for the rest of their life, guess where they get the 60...yes they come back to the same fucking place

[Hugh_Jazz]

You've obviously never been a victim of this' date=' they get put in a cell overnight and get a 60 fine payable at 2 per month for the rest of their life, guess where they get the 60...yes they come back to the same fucking place[/quote']

what fucking difference does it make that I havent been a victim?

so...if we do arrest them, they get a fine and reoffend to pay the fine. If they dont get arrested, they think they're immortal so they keep doing it.

it's the court's job to ensure reoffending doesnt occur...not the police. The more arrests the police can make the better.

[Frosty Jack]

I agree Identity theft costs 1.3 billion but fraud costs more see below

The 20 billion taken by organised crime come from this source on page 1 half way down

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/docs4/Id_Cards_Briefing.pdf

OK' date=' all I found there was

"for example, the annual cost of organised crime has been estimated at 20 billion pounds."

That tells me the problem, not the solution. Where does it say how much of that will be saved by ID Cards?

The ID cards website is on this link

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/comrace/identitycards/index.html

And the Identity Cards Bill is at this link

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200506/cmbills/009/2006009.htm

And what information can we get from there? I hope I'm not being overly cynical by asking for sources that aren't actually Government PR, am I?

[The Milner]

Re. fingerprinting' date=' not every criminal is as careful as u suggest. I would wager that a high percentage of burglaries are caused by druggies wanting their next fix. These fuckers arent the most rational thinkers, and if the police already had their fingerprints, there would definitely be more arrests IMO.

Murderers and rapists arent all professional hitmen either. A central fingerprint database would be very useful i reckon..[/quote']

i agree but not every criminal used to wear masks before it became easier to identify them throught the use of video evidence. However now it would be deemed extremely stupid to rob a bank without covering your face. What most of youl seem to be forgetting is the human race has thrived apon adapting to new situations for years and criminals are one of the best examples. Yes at the moment most would be stupid enough to leave finger prints but once finger printing becomes easier for the police to do criminals will adapt and learn to cover up things like that better.

[soundian]

OK' date=' all I found there was

"for example, the annual cost of organised crime has been estimated at 20 billion pounds."

That tells me the problem, not the solution. Where does it say how much of that will be saved by ID Cards?

And what information can we get from there? I hope I'm not being overly cynical by asking for sources that aren't actually Government PR, am I?[/quote']

Could you also ask how 20 billion became 200 each. Not that i'm bothered because real criminals will find a way round it really quickly, just wondering who does the arithmetic?

Last time I checked there was about 55 million people in Britain. Who has a calculator?!!?!

[soundian]

there already is a huge fingerprint database in Britain' date=' it just needs everyone to be on it!!

also.. on the ID cards, it will have your DNA from both hair and blood samples, and it will have your blood-type.

everything helps, and i don't think we should always be so critical about the government trying to the right thing.. they are taking small steps, that may in the future turn into a huge brilliant promising outlook for us all.[/quote']

I so nearly missed the sarcasm there, irony must be your twin.