Lauren Mayberry (CHVRCHES) blogs about online misogyny...

[givemeasmile]

Don't be silly. it is a grey area. it's constantly changing though. depending on legislation. my point is that the more you are in the public eye the more you are going to encounter the dark side of human nature- most bands and solo- artists suck it up. unless you are an attention grabbing lefty fuck-tard. i apologise, I find this whole thing difficult. But i think most of you guys are wrong.

 

It isn't a grey area, the internet has replaced the majority of ways in which we communicate; I'd go as far as to say that it has become the main form of communication between people. Just like if you were to write an abusive letter, you are held accountable for what you do.

 

I agree that if in the public eye bands/artists are far more likely to be subject to abuse; however this doesn't belittle anything being sent online whether it be in this case or any case of abusive messages being sent. You can't pan it off because 'it's only the internet'; if I messaged you on here giving you a heap of shit for no reason you'd take it as insulting, and you'd be quite right to. It's definitely not a grey area, and while it is fairly obvious that it's difficult problem to police effectively she has done the right thing in attempt to raise awareness of the issue. She seems fairly thick skinned to me by coming out and talking about it.

[kirsten]

Part of the problem here is people (men) jumping in to defend womens rights. If we're aiming to promote gender equality those men will have to concede that women are quite capable of looking after themselves and that this type of ridiculous need to wade in and act all "i'm better than you because i'm a man and I understand how women feel" is actually part of the problem.

 

I don't think this is true. The kinds of jerks who are sexist aren't going to listen to any reasoned argument as to why they're wrong when a woman tells them, so both genders need to get involved to try and make people see sense.

If you've got a spare 20 minutes, Jackson Katz (A MAN!!!) says it all better than I can. If you don't have the time, then the bit about 'the bystander approach' from 11mins30 is more eloquent than I will ever be

http://youtu.be/KTvSfeCRxe8?t=11m30s

 

He has a good bit at the start about not accepting that sexual violence, harrassment and abuse are 'women's issues', because that gives men the excuse to not pay attention to them when everybody should be doing what they can to prevent them from existing.

[Mr Owl PhD]

Some quick points on this:

 

1. I entirely support Lauren Mayberry speaking out on this issue.  I disagree with claims that people in her position should be more 'thick-skinned'.  I think she knows that by doing this she may get more abuse, just as Stella Creasy and others have done when they've spoken out against misogyny.  Mayberry is, I believe, doing this to shine a light on the abuse she and others receive and to raise awareness of the problem.  Speaking out is, in my view, the 'thick-skinned' thing to do.  The casual and normalised racism and homophobia that was prevalent not that long ago was not combatted by the victims of abuse keeping quiet about it.  This problem will not go away if no one says anything - quite the opposite.

2. Whilst the people who are perpetrating the abuse are probably 'seeking attention' I don't think that speaking out in the way Mayberry has is giving them what they want.  I suspect most of these people are probably still looking for some kind of approval from certain people, most likely their peers (probably other men).  I think anything that makes it clearer to them that many are intolerant of what they do, whilst it's not going to stop it instantly, can at least create an environment in which such abuse isn't accommodated so comfortably.

3. This is also why it is extremely important that men vocally support women such as Mayberry who speak out.  Misogynist abuse is not simply an issue for women to deal with.  That's because it's an issue that involves both men and women.  As a man I think I need to make it absolutely clear to other men that sexist abuse is not funny, clever or good in any way.

4. If any men are the victims of abuse via twitter or whatever else then I think they should have the courage to speak out about it.  I don't think that supporting Mayberry in anyway precludes a concern for the abuse of people more generally.

[get lost]

A horrible situation for her, but as a public figure who is attractive and in a popular group!, this was always going to happen!!, Its a strange world we live in, all we can do it keep the awareness of this stuff going! amen...

[Alkaline]

I don't think this is true. The kinds of jerks who are sexist aren't going to listen to any reasoned argument as to why they're wrong when a woman tells them, so both genders need to get involved to try and make people see sense.

If you've got a spare 20 minutes, Jackson Katz (A MAN!!!) says it all better than I can. If you don't have the time, then the bit about 'the bystander approach' from 11mins30 is more eloquent than I will ever be

http://youtu.be/KTvSfeCRxe8?t=11m30s

 

He has a good bit at the start about not accepting that sexual violence, harrassment and abuse are 'women's issues', because that gives men the excuse to not pay attention to them when everybody should be doing what they can to prevent them from existing.

 

Thats not what I'm saying though. We should be tackling it as a non-gender issue.

[The Milner]

I don't think you're entirely arguing a contradictory point. To a certain extent I agree that whilst pretty disgusting, the rapey comments and such are a just an unfortunate by-product of the society we live in and this person isn't the first and won't be the last to deal with it. I didn't need an article in the Guardian to tell me this problem exists - I'm not surprised that it does either. As you say she's in no way unique in her situation - anyone in the public eye is pretty much fair game and there are countless similar stories out there.

 

That said, the fact it appears in the Guardian and not whatever publication you prefer doesn't make it any less disheartening and worrysome. I'm pretty sure you could swap out Lauren Mayberry for anyone else in the world and you'd still hold the same view because of the 'lefty fucktard' thing.

 

I'd agree with most of this. Whilst its not right that people in the public eye get this kind of attention, its is part of the deal really. Get lots of money, have the papers all over you, have the weirdo's come out of the closet ect. I dont think she is anything special in this instance, but fair play for coming out about it all.

 

The one thing is tho, her article wont change a thing, if anything, it will encourage the idiots to bombard her and her band with non stop shite, because now they know it gets a rise out of her. Its most likely a large proportion of the comments are nothing more than trolling due to the content of the article, which unfortunately is now a days part of the internet. Trolling happens everywhere, more so when famous, or in her case, ever so slightly famous, people are involved. 

 

As much as it might annoy some, i do agree with the thick skinned thing. When your in a band getting somewhere, there will always be people ready to try and drag you down, or be an arse to you, if you let each one bother you, you will want to end it all before long. Personally i dont see why she doesnt instantly disguard these messages, and just concentrate on the good ones coming in. If your going to hand hold a FB account whilst being famous, your going to have to wade through shite, much like you would in the old days getting fan mail. 

 

One last thing, i agree with Phil, i dont see why men are excluded from this. Who gets it worse, this quine getting a few fb messages from weirdo's or Justin Beiber who probably cannot walk down a street without fear of getting his clothes stolen. Why is it the girl gets more sympathy? Is that not just pandering to the sterotype of males being stronger and what have you? 

[Soda Jerk]

The outlook that she's meant to just 'deal with it' is pretty astonishing. I don't think anyone should just have to put up with the threat of rape, just as they shouldn't have to put up with the threat or violence, death or being demoralised due to ethinicity/skin colour etc. Being in the public eye makes it no less of an act of abuse and harassment. You wouldn't put up with it if someone said it to your face on the street, so you don't put up with it in electronic format.

 

But of course, anyone who objects to the threat of rape is "an attention grabbing lefty fucktard". Yikes

[neepheid]

 

As much as it might annoy some, i do agree with the thick skinned thing. When your in a band getting somewhere, there will always be people ready to try and drag you down, or be an arse to you, if you let each one bother you, you will want to end it all before long. Personally i dont see why she doesnt instantly disguard these messages, and just concentrate on the good ones coming in. If your going to hand hold a FB account whilst being famous, your going to have to wade through shite, much like you would in the old days getting fan mail. 

 

Both the law and I are saying that no-one should HAVE to put up with them being sent in the first place.

 

It's going to happen whether you like it or not, so suck it up, is that it?  Is that your approach?  How defeatist.

[kirsten]

Thats not what I'm saying though. We should be tackling it as a non-gender issue.

Okay, so tackle it as a non-gender issue but where men shouldn't get involved because it looks like they're saying they're better than women?

I'm not having a go or trying to be difficult, I just don't fully understand what you're saying. I agree with you, in an ideal world, gender shouldn't come into it as it is essentially about human beings sending intimidating abuse to other human beings. 

 

One last thing, i agree with Phil, i dont see why men are excluded from this. Who gets it worse, this quine getting a few fb messages from weirdo's or Justin Beiber who probably cannot walk down a street without fear of getting his clothes stolen. Why is it the girl gets more sympathy? Is that not just pandering to the sterotype of males being stronger and what have you? 

 

Nothing is stopping men who are receiving abuse or threats from coming out and publicly saying that it's unacceptable. They should do that. Just because a far smaller number of them are doing it than women doesn't mean that women should follow suit and keep quiet about this stuff.

I think this discussion is very much in danger of veering into "You know who the real persecuted people are these days? Middle-class white men!" or "It's all very well having a go at the Christians, but I don't see you saying that about the Muslims!"

Edited October 9, 2013 by kirsten

[Alkaline]

Okay, so tackle it as a non-gender issue but where men shouldn't get involved because it looks like they're saying they're better than women?

I'm not having a go, I just don't fully understand what you're saying. I agree with you, in an ideal world, gender shouldn't come into it as it is essentially about human beings sending intimidating abuse to other human beings. 

 

 

No, that's not what I'm saying either. I'm probably not explaining clearly enough. I think we have to just step aside from making it a gender issue if we want to move on with trying to stamp out abusive behaviour like this. I was trying to point out that the type of men who are trying to wade in are actually part of the problem as well as regardless of what their motives are the perception from their actions is making it a gender issue when it really isn't.

 

Jan is guilty of this every time he posts on a feminist issue which is ironic because he (and others like him) doesn't see that what he's doing/saying is part of the problem (I appreciate what he's doing/saying is done with the best intentions though).

 

It doesn't have to be an ideal world for this to happen it just takes the feminists and the pro-feminist male internet vigilantes taking a step back and not trying to claim a misfortune for their own and looking at the bigger, human picture. 

[The Milner]

Both the law and I are saying that no-one should HAVE to put up with them being sent in the first place.

 

It's going to happen whether you like it or not, so suck it up, is that it?  Is that your approach?  How defeatist.

 

Well what would you suggest? Do you think her article will stop these messages, or encourage them because the people who are dickish enough to make the comments now know it annoys her?

 

When i was at school i was called various things, cancer patient amongst others, when my parents spent time complaining to the school it did nothing to stop it happening, what did stop them, was when i stopped getting worked up by it, when i laughed it off or completely ignored it, then the people dishing it out got bored and moved onto something else. I played football for years and regularly got threats of having my legs broken, or people waiting for me at the end of the game if i didnt stop tackling them, but again i ignored everything that was said and got on with life.

 

Now i know getting rapey threats can be a lot more serious, but lets be fair, a huge portion will be from trolls with nothing better to do, or knobbers sitting at their mates thinking they are funny. They will not all be serious "im gonna rape you" messages, if you start thinking as such you will never leave the house. 

 

Again, if your gonna be in the public eye, you will have to accept some form of dickishness, because thats the price of it all, rightly or wrongly.

[FatHand]

I find the kind of abuse that this girl has been receiving sickening.  There is no justification for it being acceptable.  First thing that needs to happen is a change in the cultural attitude towards sexual abuse from left to right.  There is nothing political about actual or implied rape.  I would say that the UK is making progress compared with other nations; I have come across some extremely disturbing attitudes when travelling in other countries.  The truth is however, that we are still nowhere near tackling this problem properly. 

 

The internet is a strange place.  In one thread we've got people who are supportive of a public figure standing up against threatening and inappropriate comments from the public and the next thread down is the same people are having a "bet" on celebrities dying.  

[neepheid]

Well what would you suggest? Do you think her article will stop these messages, or encourage them because the people who are dickish enough to make the comments now know it annoys her?

 

When i was at school i was called various things, cancer patient amongst others, when my parents spent time complaining to the school it did nothing to stop it happening, what did stop them, was when i stopped getting worked up by it, when i laughed it off or completely ignored it, then the people dishing it out got bored and moved onto something else. I played football for years and regularly got threats of having my legs broken, or people waiting for me at the end of the game if i didnt stop tackling them, but again i ignored everything that was said and got on with life.

 

Now i know getting rapey threats can be a lot more serious, but lets be fair, a huge portion will be from trolls with nothing better to do, or knobbers sitting at their mates thinking they are funny. They will not all be serious "im gonna rape you" messages, if you start thinking as such you will never leave the house. 

 

Again, if your gonna be in the public eye, you will have to accept some form of dickishness, because thats the price of it all, rightly or wrongly.

 

You know what I suggest because I've already suggested it.  The transmission of these messages is a punishable crime, and the law can be dogmatic when it wants to be so authorities - get punishing please.  Really, bring it the hell on.  Murder rate's pretty low because there are fairly hefty penalties for it and it's pretty relentlessly pursued.  Pursuing this social "bad habit" will be intensive and expensive but it's public money well spent if it licks society into a more respectful form.

 

Well if you want to play the bullied at school card (not really relevant as I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of these comments are being written by supposed adults, not kids), I spent most of my school years ignoring physical and verbal abuse, it didn't go away until fifth year secondary, it wasn't pleasant in the fucking slightest AND IT SHOULDN'T HAVE HAPPENED IN THE FIRST PLACE (which is the whole point I've been saying all along).  Now it seems having manners and some semblance of acceptability in the content of one's communications is just making me a square all over again.  Oh YAS.

 

I got real fucking tired of "sucking it up".  I don't see why anyone should have to go through it.  It really retarded my social development and set my life back at least a decade in many respects.  I suppose you'd say that's my fault for letting it as well.  And because you speak as someone who has been on the receiving end, I'm doubly surprised at your attitude.  I really wish I had smacked a few people in the face.  That would have got their attention.  I didn't - I took the "higher moral ground" (or something) and now you have this bitter, regretful, overcompensating faux confident character to debate with instead.  What fun!

 

But I should stop moaning, because clearly I brought it all on myself, and it's all my fault.

[Monster Zero]

I find the kind of abuse that this girl has been receiving sickening.  There is no justification for it being acceptable.  First thing that needs to happen is a change in the cultural attitude towards sexual abuse from left to right.  There is nothing political about actual or implied rape.  I would say that the UK is making progress compared with other nations; I have come across some extremely disturbing attitudes when travelling in other countries.  The truth is however, that we are still nowhere near tackling this problem properly. 

 

The internet is a strange place.  In one thread we've got people who are supportive of a public figure standing up against threatening and inappropriate comments from the public and the next thread down is the same people are having a "bet" on celebrities dying.

Don't forget the sexist LADZ banter. Maybe thats OK if its 'ironic'.

[The Milner]

Christ thast not even close to what i was meaning. I really sympathise that you did struggle with bullying, and in no way did i say it was your fault, or that you delt with it in the wrong way, or that i dealt with it better than you did. Im really not wanting to make it seem like i am blaming you for anything that may have happened to you, just like im not blaming this girl for the messages she has received.

 

I had another huge post lined up, but i wont bother, this is really murkey waters at times, and clearly things being said can be taken the wrong way because people feel strongly about it, ill just say three things.

 

1 - I dont condone the rapey messages

2 - I do think at times you need to ignore stuff said to you in order to get on with life.

3 - this isnt an issue just confined to women.

[neepheid]

Christ thast not even close to what i was meaning. I really sympathise that you did struggle with bullying, and in no way did i say it was your fault, or that you delt with it in the wrong way, or that i dealt with it better than you did. Im really not wanting to make it seem like i am blaming you for anything that may have happened to you, just like im not blaming this girl for the messages she has received.

 

I had another huge post lined up, but i wont bother, this is really murkey waters at times, and clearly things being said can be taken the wrong way because people feel strongly about it, ill just say three things.

 

1 - I dont condone the rapey messages

2 - I do think at times you need to ignore stuff said to you in order to get on with life.

3 - this isnt an issue just confined to women.

 

I think I went a bit apeshit on you there, sorry about that.  I stand by what I said though.  If we're down to bulletpointing then:

 

1 - I had credited you with sufficient social airs and graces to assume this

2 - ignoring doesn't necessarily make it go away (as I rather angrily pointed out, sorry again) and it certainly won't cure this online social cancer.

3 - agreed.

[colb]

Threats of violence or sexual violence are completely unacceptable over the internet or otherwise. No one should have to "put up" with them whatever sex they are. That's completely clear to me and should be to everyone else on here.

 

I wonder if Lauren has done anything about the abuse she received? I can't see anything about that in the article - contacting the police/internet providers and making a complaint for example. 

 

If all she's done is highlight a problem but not done anything about it, then it does smack a little bit of Liz Jonesesque victim journalism, making a few quid by writing about it in a low circulation newspaper read by people that probably don't do that kind of thing anyway seems like a bit of a waste of time.

 

Writing about what she's done about it would have been a much more positive and inspirational article, and could either have set an example or served as a warning for everyone reading it, depending on your internet posting habits.....

[Moose]

I can't get on board with this being a popular topic for debate over the last week or so.  What it boils down to is a young girl being sent revolting, sexual orientated messages to a place where she has every right to read them and be upset by them.  This girl then stands up for herself by writing about it, putting her point of view in to the public eye, and making people aware that she is receiving upsetting messages that she shouldn't be; presumably so people will go "that is awful and shouldn't be happening under any circumstances.  I should share this around so other people are made aware of the extant to which this sort of thing is happening." 

 

It's not a debate over what her expectations should be on the internet or with her current level of fame.  It's not a matter of whether this topic should have gender taken out the equation (I mean, really?).  It doesn't matter if it's written in The Guardian or The Sun.  It's like some people (not on here) think it is some sort of femenist propaganda, which it's not.  It's an interesting and fairly well written account of something that is happeneing to her which should not be happening to her.  I can't understand how it has sparked so much "debate". 

[Monster Zero]

I don't believe anyone on this thread has in any way condoned the messages this lady received. What the article doesn't make clear is whether she took it to any authorities in a real effort to try and rid the net of people who can get away with this sort of thing. To me it kind of reads like she posted a "please stop posting this sort of thing" message and then became somehow shocked that in amongst the supportive messages she received even more abusive crap. The sort of people who have the moral compass that allows them to post threats of rape, whether serious, 'jokey' or as an effort to impress someone are extremely unlikely to take any notice.

Of course it is admirable she has highlighted it, but given the papers are full of daily reports of kids killing themselves after being bullied online, was anyone really unaware of the sort of vile crap that goes on and the need for real implementation of the laws Neepheid speaks of, regardless of the nature of the abuse.

My problem with the article is that she seems to just concede the action to other folk.

[The Milner]

I think I went a bit apeshit on you there, sorry about that.  I stand by what I said though.  If we're down to bulletpointing then:

 

1 - I had credited you with sufficient social airs and graces to assume this

2 - ignoring doesn't necessarily make it go away (as I rather angrily pointed out, sorry again) and it certainly won't cure this online social cancer.

3 - agreed.

 

You dont need to say sorry, this is a very touchy subject, especially if your coming from a point of experience of it all, and i know i tend to waffle shite without really making my stance all that clear, which is why i went for bullet points instead, saves me digging a bigger hole for myself when i waffle more. 

 

Monster has it right, there should be plenty out there that already has pushed through tougher guidelines for this kinda thing, its gone on for as long as forums and social media sites have existed, and the people doing these kind of things will take no notice of what her article has said, only that if they send her more messages, she will get upset by them, and thats always the aim of a troll, a reaction. 

 

There is freedom of speech and there is vile abuse, at times it seems people dont really know where the line is, or they know where it is, but just dont care because there is little chance of them being caught. The internet can be both wonderful and horrifying, and no one has ever really tried to stop it happening. 

[Woodsinho]

Except that people are trying to stop it happening and are not getting very far. There was something doing the rounds in the news just a few weeks ago about how difficult it is to get the police to do anything about these things when complaints are made. It was on Newsnight and everything so it must be true. The police's stance seems to be that it's down to facebook/twitter to deal with reports of abuse which prompted the addition of a 'report abuse' button. What action will be taken upon the use of that button remains to be seen but it's not fair to say that no one is trying to do something to make it clear that such threats are unacceptable.

Edited October 9, 2013 by Woodsinho

[The Milner]

Except that people are trying to stop it happening and are not getting very far. There was something doing the rounds in the news just a few weeks ago about how difficult it is to get the police to do anything about these things when complaints are made. It was on Newsnight and everything so it must be true. The police's stance seems to be that it's down to facebook/twitter to deal with reports of abuse which prompted the addition of a 'report abuse' button. What action will be taken upon the use of that button remains to be seen but it's not fair to say that no one is trying to do something to make it clear that such threats are unacceptable.

 

That whole things seems like a way of them getting around it all, like you say, what happens when you press that report button? Who does it go to? Who decides what posts really have upset people. and which posts are being reported frivolously. Why wasnt their a report button from the start, why wasnt it made extremely clear from the off that ANY form of abuse would result in an account being instantly deleted, why dont they delete any account guilty of abusive posts? 

 

There should have been preventative action from the off, not reactive action now it has gotten beyond a certain point of abuse. 

[ca_gere]

 

 

The internet is a strange place.  In one thread we've got people who are supportive of a public figure standing up against threatening and inappropriate comments from the public and the next thread down is the same people are having a "bet" on celebrities dying.  

 

This is an interesting point. I think the one major difference between the two is intent. In the celeb death thread the intent isn't wishing death upon anyone, it's... (and I'll try not philosophise it too much) all about the mordib irony of the whole thing. You 'celebrate' a death not because you're glad the person has met their maker but it's that their 'legacy' has been reduced to you winning some points. Here's this person who has made a great success of their life (in most cases) and here's us plebs playing a game that ignores all that and focusses on their mortality. The whole concept is a statement about the culture of celebrity.

 

But you can extend this notion of intent to pretty much everything. I'm a firm believer in comedians being able to say whatever the fuck they want (and anyone else for that matter), as long as their intent is clear. There should be no taboo topics or off-limits objects of ridicule as long as everyone can understand the point you are making. A lot of debate comes from misunderstanding.

 

Remember the whole Kramer racist debacle?... Apparently a week before he did the exact same 'bit' to a group of Jews and noone batted an eyelid. Take the whole thing out of context and it's immediately a racist tirade. I'm not saying it was or it wasn't but because his intent wasn't clear when the story broke, the debate formed.

[Guest E.C]

this entire thread is boring. 

 

 

don't be a misogynist. encourage that viewpoint amongst others. correct anyone who says anything misogynistic in "real life".

 

there will ALWAYS be people who are drunk/high/socially inept who think contacting 'insert any person' and saying "i'd love to break you in half" in the same way that there will always (in our lifetime) be people who are racist or homophobic etc.

 

but ultimately when it comes down to it, all you can do is personally make moves to ensure you're not being a dick. 

Edited October 9, 2013 by E.C

[Monster Zero]

This is an interesting point. I think the one major difference between the two is intent. In the celeb death thread the intent isn't wishing death upon anyone, it's... (and I'll try not philosophise it too much) all about the mordib irony of the whole thing. You 'celebrate' a death not because you're glad the person has met their maker but it's that their 'legacy' has been reduced to you winning some points. Here's this person who has made a great success of their life (in most cases) and here's us plebs playing a game that ignores all that and focusses on their mortality. The whole concept is a statement about the culture of celebrity.

..."lets guess who'll die this year and get points for it so I can make a spreadsheet" was what Lucky Rathen was thinking.