2013/2014 Season

[ca_gere]

There's also increasing murmurs that Moyes has lost the faith of alot of players. "Lost the dressing room", as they say. Javier Hernandez has taken to Instagram and Twitter, saying some cryptic stuff which seems to point to him wanting out. Wilf Zaha uploaded a picture of himself and Solksjaer and captioned it "Nothing like someone who believes in you...". Rio got involved in some chatter on Twitter regarding the next manager to be sacked, and mentioned Moyes in quite a negative way. Vidic has explicitly stated he will leave at the next nearest opportunity. Losing a captain is huge, even if he is past his prime. Long serving senior players should be fighting their way out of the turmoil, rather than looking to jump ship. Lots of rumours surrounding Rooney and RVP, both who have remained silent. Usually players are quick to quash it, if it's nonsense.

 

But regardless of the manager, if players don't want to play for United, then they shouldn't be at the club. There is a realistic chance of quite an exodus.

 

His handling of Zaha was particularly odd. One of the most exciting talents in the country one minute, starting games in pre-season and looking immense then suddenly he's banished to the arse-end of Wales. At Everton it seemed everyone was really playing for the manager, it looks like anything but at the moment.

[Lemonade]

Personally I don't think he'll be around much longer. He looks absolutely bewildered. Like it's all gone to hell and he doesn't know how to fix it. The stories above are pretty worrying too.

Maybe they need to stick a bunch of vague-sounding directors above him: sporting director, director of football, general manager etc, to lift some of the pressure. What's Joe Kinnear doing now? Or maybe he just needs to reboot. Ship out all the dead wood and all the ones crying over missing Fergie and bring in his own players who'll play his way. Get all Big Bastard on their arses. Listen you cunt, we're playing fucking long ball and if you don't like, fuck off and play for FC United of Manchester you useless fucking beanbag. Your wife's a whore an' all.

[Gladstone]

Not that one.

The Brazilian one who plays for Shakthar.

[Soda Jerk]

His handling of Zaha was particularly odd. One of the most exciting talents in the country one minute, starting games in pre-season and looking immense then suddenly he's banished to the arse-end of Wales. At Everton it seemed everyone was really playing for the manager, it looks like anything but at the moment.

 

Wilf Zaha is an odd one. Phil Neville has hinted that he's not all too professional behind the scenes. Allegedly Palace let Wilf do whatever he wanted, stroll into training at lunchtime, or not turn up at all. Allegedly, of course. Neville was suggesting that Wilf upped his game in pre-season, knuckled down and worked hard, but it didn't take long for him to slip into old habits, and has been a bit lazy in the first half of the season, which led to him hardly getting picked. It might be shite, but I wouldn't expect it from Phil Neville. And if it is true, it stacks up. Nani has been injured. Young has been in and out. Moyes seems to hate Kagawa, and Valencia has been godawful. It seems hard to believe that Zaha, with all his talent, can't get a game. Unless he's been dicking about, then he obviously doesn't deserve it. Moyes likes grafters, afterall.

[Alkaline]

The Brazilian one who plays for Shakthar.

Aye, not the good footballer that played for Inter though. Different Maicon. Still shite though.

[The Milner]

His handling of Zaha was particularly odd. One of the most exciting talents in the country one minute, starting games in pre-season and looking immense then suddenly he's banished to the arse-end of Wales. At Everton it seemed everyone was really playing for the manager, it looks like anything but at the moment.

 

You can be one of the most exciting talents, but if you dont have the work ethic you will never make it at the top clubs. Its been banded about for a while that he is lazy in training and currently more interested in showboating. See Ravel Morrison, one of the greatest talents England has probably produced in ten  years, but he will probably never get beyond bottom prem level unless he changes his attitude. Earlier in the season people talked about United making a mistake selling him, now he is going to drop a division on loan, because big Sam is fed up of his attitude. 

 

I dont see Moyes going any time soon, Man Utd will want to avoid becoming one of those clubs as much as possible, and whilst Fergie is still involved i cannot see them have a knee jerk reaction over it all. One bad season wont finish the club, a couple in a row might have more influence, but i would be willing to bet a years salary that Moyes will be there come August. Plus, who will they take in if he goes? There isnt another Fergie out there, and there is not a huge number of top managers who are going to give up what they are doing for the United job, and do United really want a manager like Pep who will stay for 3/4 seasons max, before they are back in the same position again? 

Edited February 11, 2014 by The Milner

[Paranoid Android]

do United really want a manager like Pep who will stay for 3/4 seasons max, before they are back in the same position again? 

 

Yes I would imagine they would absolutely love a manager like Pep for 3 or 4 seasons.

[The Milner]

Yes I would imagine they would absolutely love a manager like Pep for 3 or 4 seasons.

 

I dont think so. I dont think a club like Man Utd wants to change to being a club that only plans for 3 seasons at a time, its not in their history to do so, and i dont see why they would want to start down that route now. The fans would certainly want Pep in, but i really dont think the board would push the boat out for a short term manager. 

[Gladstone]

I dont see Moyes going any time soon, Man Utd will want to avoid becoming one of those clubs as much as possible, and whilst Fergie is still involved i cannot see them have a knee jerk reaction over it all. One bad season wont finish the club, a couple in a row might have more influence, but i would be willing to bet a years salary that Moyes will be there come August. Plus, who will they take in if he goes? There isnt another Fergie out there, and there is not a huge number of top managers who are going to give up what they are doing for the United job, and do United really want a manager like Pep who will stay for 3/4 seasons max, before they are back in the same position again? 

I'm relatively confident that Moyes will be there at the end of the season, but less and less so after every shit result/performance.

 

Man United will still see themselves as one of the biggest clubs in the world and their current form in the current football climate is unacceptable by their standards.  They're in danger of not even being in Europe next season which is unfathomable.

 

I always thought they'd done the right thing by appointing Moyes and that it would be a good long term appointment.  It just doesn't look to be the case anymore.

 

Is there still a view that Moyes will be able to turn it around if he stays into next season?  I'm not sure he's the right guy for the job anymore.  His tactics have been shit.  Really shit.  How long will he be given to change his footballing philosophy?

 

They might have been better to do something like bring in a Fergie disciple than Moyes.  Someone that learned their trade under Fergie through years at Man Utd.  That's risky though.  A big name proven manager is probably the next step for Man United.  In hindsight, they maybe should have gone after Mourinho.  He's looked like the kind of guy that goes from job to job, but he seems to want to stay in England now.

[The Milner]

I am just glad United seem to be avoid knee jerk reactions over it all, had this been almost any other club he would have been sacked, hopefully the United board are looking further down the line about it all. 

 

Like i say, United are a club that likes long term managers, not 3/4 season wonders. 

 

What i really dont get is why people seem to assume that Jose or Pep or any of the top managers would have dropped what they were doing to come to United. Lets be honest, it was possibly the worst job in football to take on, as your taking over from an unrivaled legend of football, whoever took over was always going to be in the shaddow of Fergie, i dont think many of the top guys would have wanted that. There is almost no club who were in the same situation as United.

 

i think Moyes should be given huge credit for being brave enough to take on the job.

[Paranoid Android]

Mourinho would have jumped at the chance in the summer. It was blatantly obvious he wanted the job.I'd be surprised if he ever went there now thought after not getting offered at that time. 

 

And Ferguson was an aberration, if United want to consistently remain a top side then they are going to have to accept changing coach every 3/4 years.That's how long cycles for top teams last.

[Gladstone]

I am just glad United seem to be avoid knee jerk reactions over it all, had this been almost any other club he would have been sacked, hopefully the United board are looking further down the line about it all. 

 

Like i say, United are a club that likes long term managers, not 3/4 season wonders. 

 

What i really dont get is why people seem to assume that Jose or Pep or any of the top managers would have dropped what they were doing to come to United. Lets be honest, it was possibly the worst job in football to take on, as your taking over from an unrivaled legend of football, whoever took over was always going to be in the shaddow of Fergie, i dont think many of the top guys would have wanted that. There is almost no club who were in the same situation as United.

 

i think Moyes should be given huge credit for being brave enough to take on the job.

I understand all of that, and agree that it's refreshing that Moyes hasn't been sacked.

 

I'm just not sure how much leeway he should get.  Looking at the evidence thus far, is he going to be capable of adapting enough to have Man United not just winning games of football, but playing attractive attacking football for the fans?  I'm not sure that he is.  Would be happy to be proven wrong because I hate the knee-jerk sackings as much as the next guy.

 

This isn't just Man United struggling to be on top of the league having lost 2 or 3 games against the big guys.  This is Man United languishing in 7th place, 14 points off of Chelsea, having lost 8 league matches and unable to see off bottom placed Fulham at home.

 

I'm not saying they should sack Moyes - I don't think they should.  I'm questioning whether it was the right appointment and if it wasn't the right appointment, does Moyes have what it takes to turn them back into a side to compete for the title and compete in the Champions League?  I'm not sure that he does.

 

I'm also not saying that Mourinho would have dropped what he was doing to come to Man United.  Pep definitely wouldn't have because he just started his stint at Bayern.  Mourinho, if approached at the time when Fergie announced his retirement would definitely have considered it and may well have gone for it.  I don't think he would take it now though.  He might watch Moyes fuck it up for a couple of seasons and then swan in and turn it around for a couple of seasons and then leave again, but that's not what Man United want or need really.  They've probably missed the opportunity to pull in Mourinho at the right time and make it a relatively long term appointment.

 

Ryan Giggs, Phil Neville and Gary Neville for the dream team. 

Edited February 11, 2014 by Gladstone

[The Milner]

Mourinho would have jumped at the chance in the summer. It was blatantly obvious he wanted the job.I'd be surprised if he ever went there now thought after not getting offered at that time. 

 

And Ferguson was an aberration, if United want to consistently remain a top side then they are going to have to accept changing coach every 3/4 years.That's how long cycles for top teams last.

 

In what way was it blatantly obvious? He made it clear he wanted to come to England, but at no time did he make it clear he wanted the United job. What makes you think they didnt speak to him and he told them he was going to Chelsea? 

Why must they change managers every 4 years to be successful? I completely disagree with that. 

[Paranoid Android]

Mourinho had nothing to drop, all he was doing before Moyes got the job was sitting by the phone waiting for a call from United. 

 

 

I'm happy Moyes has been given time but at this point you could argue that almost any of the managers who have been sacked this season were less deserving of losing their job.

[The Milner]

I understand all of that, and agree that it's refreshing that Moyes hasn't been sacked.

 

I'm just not sure how much leeway he should get.  Looking at the evidence thus far, is he going to be capable of adapting enough to have Man United not just winning games of football, but playing attractive attacking football for the fans?  I'm not sure that he is.  Would be happy to be proven wrong because I hate the knee-jerk sackings as much as the next guy.

 

This isn't just Man United struggling to be on top of the league having lost 2 or 3 games against the big guys.  This is Man United languishing in 7th place, 14 points off of Chelsea, having lost 8 league matches and unable to see off bottom placed Fulham at home.

 

I'm not saying they should sack Moyes - I don't think they should.  I'm questioning whether it was the right appointment and if it wasn't the right appointment, does Moyes have what it takes to turn them back into a side to compete for the title and compete in the Champions League?  I'm not sure that he does.

 

I'm also not saying that Mourinho would have dropped what he was doing to come to Man United.  Pep definitely wouldn't have because he just started his stint at Bayern.  Mourinho, if approached at the time when Fergie announced his retirement would definitely have considered it and may well have gone for it.  I don't think he would take it now though.  He might watch Moyes fuck it up for a couple of seasons and then swan in and turn it around for a couple of seasons and then leave again, but that's not what Man United want or need really.  They've probably missed the opportunity to pull in Mourinho at the right time and make it a relatively long term appointment.

 

Ryan Giggs, Phil Neville and Gary Neville for the dream team. 

 

Well lets be honest. United havent played attractive attacking football in a few seasons now, they didnt last year when they won the title. They played quick direct attacking football that left them open at the back, much like this year, only last year the players performed better. 

I dont know what people expected taking over from a guy like Fergie, this year was almost always going to be a transition period where things might not go so well. You dont change from a manager of the best part of 30 years without upheaval. 

 

Again, people seem to assume Jose was sitting at home just waiting for the phone to ring so he could buy a house in Manchester. Who says the Chelsea move wasnt agreed before Fergie retired? There was talk of him going to Chelsea since Di Matteo was sacked mid season last year, long before Fergie decided to retire. 

[The Milner]

Mourinho had nothing to drop, all he was doing before Moyes got the job was sitting by the phone waiting for a call from United. 

 

 

I'm happy Moyes has been given time but at this point you could argue that almost any of the managers who have been sacked this season were less deserving of losing their job.

 

I take it you are privy to his personal life and schedule then? You cannot say that with any certainty so its a moot point. 

 

Jose took the Chelsea job, thats the end of that really. 

[Gladstone]

I agree with PAndroid.

 

I think Mourinho wanted the United job.  But I think what happened was Fergie saw Moyes as his natural heir to the role and handpicked him for the job.

 

Part of his moving on from the role possibly included allowing him to pick the successor and that successor getting x number of seasons to prove himself before ditching him if it wasn't working.  That's all guesses, but I wouldn't be at all surprised.

 

As for "any other team would have sacked him by now" - I also think that Man United would have sacked him by now if he hadn't been handpicked by Fergie and Fergie wasn't still heavily involved in the club.

[Gladstone]

Well lets be honest. United havent played attractive attacking football in a few seasons now, they didnt last year when they won the title. They played quick direct attacking football that left them open at the back, much like this year, only last year the players performed better. 

I dont know what people expected taking over from a guy like Fergie, this year was almost always going to be a transition period where things might not go so well. You dont change from a manager of the best part of 30 years without upheaval. 

 

Again, people seem to assume Jose was sitting at home just waiting for the phone to ring so he could buy a house in Manchester. Who says the Chelsea move wasnt agreed before Fergie retired? There was talk of him going to Chelsea since Di Matteo was sacked mid season last year, long before Fergie decided to retire. 

Maybe not - but under Fergie, they've generally played attractive attacking (if direct at times) football.

 

I'm not saying Moyes should have a magic wand (or that anyone else coming in would have) but that surely has to be the aim at a club like United?

 

United first and foremost will want to win things, but I think more and more these days, to win things, clubs are having to play attractive football anyway.  Like Joda Serk has said a few times, the punting it out to the wing, punting it into the box isn't going to work.  You may grab a few goals like that here and there, but it isn't going to work all the time.

 

So - what I'm trying to get at is "Does David Moyes have what it takes to turn Man United back into a real force in English football and in Europe?"

 

Whether you think that can be done with "ugly" football or "attractive" football probably doesn't matter.

[Paranoid Android]

In what way was it blatantly obvious? He made it clear he wanted to come to England, but at no time did he make it clear he wanted the United job. What makes you think they didnt speak to him and he told them he was going to Chelsea? 

Why must they change managers every 4 years to be successful? I completely disagree with that. 

 

Almost everything Mourinho did last season indicated he wanted to go to United. Plus they may not be proven but the number of reports claiming that he was angry and in tears about not getting the job suggest there is truth to it.

 

 

Football teams go through cycles and need fresh impetus every few years. Only a very few special coaches have ever overseen more than one highly successful cycle at the same team. That's what made Ferguson so special, he oversaw many but he still had periods every few years where the team's performance dropped as he changed personnel and moved the team on from one phase to the next.  United don't have to change their coach every few years but in my opinion to get maximum success the best approach is probably getting the most out of one coach for a few seasons before changing to another. Of course that is a highly risky strategy but you have to take risks if you start very season targeting the league title and champions league. 

[Paranoid Android]

I take it you are privy to his personal life and schedule then? You cannot say that with any certainty so its a moot point. 

 

Jose took the Chelsea job, thats the end of that really. 

 

It's not just a personal hunch, it's an opinion based upon reports about him, quotes from people near him and interviews he's given over the last ten years or so. 

[The Milner]

Maybe not - but under Fergie, they've generally played attractive attacking (if direct at times) football.

 

I'm not saying Moyes should have a magic wand (or that anyone else coming in would have) but that surely has to be the aim at a club like United?

 

United first and foremost will want to win things, but I think more and more these days, to win things, clubs are having to play attractive football anyway.  Like Joda Serk has said a few times, the punting it out to the wing, punting it into the box isn't going to work.  You may grab a few goals like that here and there, but it isn't going to work all the time.

 

So - what I'm trying to get at is "Does David Moyes have what it takes to turn Man United back into a real force in English football and in Europe?"

 

Whether you think that can be done with "ugly" football or "attractive" football probably doesn't matter.

 

They did at times, but this is Moyes first season so it can take time, again especially when your taking over a guy who has been the life of a club for 30 years. Its also worth noting that United dont really have a central option at the moment, something Moyes tried to sort in the summer but was badly let down by the new guy who took over. United for the past few years have been a team that attacks down the wings, that was the way Fergie liked it, suddenly its not good enough under Moyes. I dont disagree that they could be doing more, but you have to look at the players as well as Moyes, i dont care how big a name Moyes is, if your lucky enough to play for a club like Man Utd, you should be doing more than the current lot are doing. They are top level, world class players, they should be performing better. 

 

Like i have said, there is no situation in world football you could compare to what United have gone through. It was never going to be seemless, and yes they may have expected better than they have done, but they will give him time to turn it round. They have too, there isnt really a lot of managers going to run to Manchester as quick as possible, not when the remit would be to completely re-build a CLUB, not just a team, whilst making sure your competeing against a team with more money than god, and a team with a returning hero, also with a lot of money behind them. 

[The Milner]

Almost everything Mourinho did last season indicated he wanted to go to United. Plus they may not be proven but the number of reports claiming that he was angry and in tears about not getting the job suggest there is truth to it.

 

 

Football teams go through cycles and need fresh impetus every few years. Only a very few special coaches have ever overseen more than one highly successful cycle at the same team. That's what made Ferguson so special, he oversaw many but he still had periods every few years where the team's performance dropped as he changed personnel and moved the team on from one phase to the next.  United don't have to change their coach every few years but in my opinion to get maximum success the best approach is probably getting the most out of one coach for a few seasons before changing to another. Of course that is a highly risky strategy but you have to take risks if you start very season targeting the league title and champions league. 

 

Everything he did suggested he wanted a return to England. Not Man Utd. We didnt even know Fergie was retiring until the end of the season, so there were never any rumors of him taking the job as the job was not available until after he agreed to return to Chelsea.

 

Let not forget Moyes had a very successful decade at Everton, he knows how to build a club. I really dont agree that United must follow suit of the other clubs and go through managers every few seasons just to compete. 

[Chris]

[Paranoid Android]

You know I was just thinking about it in the shower and I decided I cam out too strong in support of the change every 3 years theory. My main point that I initially wanted to make is that I don't think a coach only staying for 3 to 4 seasons should be seen as a bad thing or overly short term. I think it is a perfectly healthy period for a manager to be in charge of one of the top clubs and there's a world of difference between that and a club changing coaches 3 times in a period of 2 years like Chelsea have often done. 

 

Regarding the Mourinho thing there's not really much either of us can say to end the debate, it could go around in circles forever. My final word on it is that you're obviously right no one had advance warning that Ferguson would leave this past summer. However I believe Mourinho had long dreamed of being the one to take over from the man he apparently highly respected and saw himself as being up to the challenge of taking over the job when most people saw it as a poisoned chalice. I think he would have considered the timing of Feguson's departure as perfect for him even if he had already had some initial talks with Chelsea about going back there. In the end though it does come down to second guessing a man's private thoughts so we will never know.

 

 

As for Moyes I agree with a lot of what you say, I have said very similar things myself. It is correct to talk about the scale of the job in taking over from Feguson and I agree the change was always going to lead to some problems and a period of less success was almost inevitable. Having said that Moyes at the moment is doing a worse job than I imagined and there are signs that he might just not have what it takes for this job and no amount of time will make a difference. I hope I am wrong about that, as I've always liked him but he needs a change of approach. 

[The Milner]

Yeah dont get me wrong, i Moyes has clearly made mistakes, and they SHOULD be doing better, but i think he is a very easy target right now. Fergie didnt leave a good squad, yes he won the league last year, but mostly because Mancini had big problems in his squad and Chelsea had Rafa. The squad was crap last year and only having an on form RVP dragged them through it, this year he has looked a shadow of himself for the best part.