2011/2012 Season Thread

[Chris]

People don't know the rules and it really annoys me. On the BBC text commentary for the Liverpool game tonight there was a large consensus seemed to build up saying that because the defender's hands were up and the ball hit them then it was a handball and a penalty. Intent didn't matter. If it was an accident or not it was a handball.

BBC Radio 5 live summariser Graham Taylor: "You cannot put your hands in the air. If the ball strikes them it's going to be a penalty. You can appeal forever. That's handball, that's a penalty."

Stu in Southampton on text: "Sorry Tom, have to agree with Graham. His arms were up, and unlucky though the deflection was, it struck them. Thus, handball, pen."

Ben on text: "Graham is wrong. The law is wrong. You can't legislate against an involuntary reflex. The ball flies towards his face, at close range, he protects himself."

Pete B on text: "If I accidentally bring someone down in the penalty area, it's a penalty. If I accidentally get caught offside, it's an offside. If I accidentally score a goal, it's a goal. Why should it be different if I accidentally stop the ball with my hand in the penalty area?"

The law isn't fucking wrong! It's just that no-one in the media or on twitter know the fucking law!

http://t.co/sS4ovZjE

Handling the ball involves a deliberate act of a player making contact with

the ball with his hand or arm.

DELIBERATE!!!

There HAS to be intent. The player has to deliberately handle the ball.

Not having Sky I haven't seen the penalty from the game but it sounds like the defender blocked it and the ball deflected onto his arms. That's not a penalty.

[Mr Owl PhD]

From the Referee's Alphabet by 'Half Man Half Biscuit':

H is for handball

which has to be intentional and very rarely is

if only people would study the rules more

Thing is most handballs aren't clearly deliberate, so the interpretation tends to be that handball is given if it looks as though it could have been deliberate. It does result in some grey areas, like this evening's case. I suppose if you go to block a shot with your arms outstretched then you run a risk and are potentially gaining an advantage by making yourself a bigger obstacle.

Nice goal by Bellamy this evening. De Jong's goal was a weird one - sort of a mishit that turned into a perfect shot.

[Murrr]

City have had a few debatable, high-profile calls lately. I think Kompany's tackle was a definite red and Balotelli's stamp was disgusting, but that's never a handball in a million years. I usually like Phil Dowd as a ref, but that's a minging call.

[Captain America]

Dowd was terrible for the whole game. I'm not Citeh lover but he may as well have had a red shirt on some of the decisions they were getting.

Needs demoting.

[Paranoid Android]

On the handball thing, I haven't seen the incident from tonight but there are times when a player positions himself with his arms stretched out wide than if the ball hits off one of them it should be given whether or not there is an intentional movement towards the ball. This is the interpretation most refs seem to go with. The John Terry stance I call it, except he gets away with it. The top lad.

El Clasico, I saw the second half and Barca were quite lucky to get through.

[Chris]

On the handball thing, I haven't seen the incident from tonight but there are times when a player positions himself with his arms stretched out wide than if the ball hits off one of them it should be given whether or not there is an intentional movement towards the ball. This is the interpretation most refs seem to go with. The John Terry stance I call it, except he gets away with it. The top lad.

Handling the ball involves a deliberate act of a player making contact with

the ball with his hand or arm.

There's not much room for interpretation there. The rules of the game say it has to be a deliberate act. Someone having their arms out wide doesn't matter. It's whether or not they've deliberately stuck their arms out to block the ball.

[The Milner]

Thats the point in the interpretation from the ref tho, a player could deliberately put their arms in a position that could block the ball, which is different to deliberately handling the ball. Its always been a bit of a grey area at times, last nights was debatable, but i have seen worse hand balls not given.

[Spoonie]

I thought it was a bad call too. He slides in, facing away from the ball with his arms out for balance. the ball bounces of his shin, straight up in the air and comes off his arm. It's not going goalwards, he's not looking ni the direction that the ball is coming from and I don't believe it was deliberate or a penalty.

[Paranoid Android]

Thats the point in the interpretation from the ref tho, a player could deliberately put their arms in a position that could block the ball, which is different to deliberately handling the ball. Its always been a bit of a grey area at times, last nights was debatable, but i have seen worse hand balls not given.

Exactly, you can't stand with your arms out like a goalie and then claim it was an accident if the ball hits one.

[Soda Jerk]

If you're sticking your arms out wide or in an unatural position away from your body, then you are knowlingly putting them in a position where the ball could realistically strike it. That is considered deliberate to practically every referee, and rightly so. Otherwise, you could pick up the ball, put it up your shirt and run home with it as Rio would say, and claim it wasn't deliberate.

I don't think it was a penalty from the replay, but at real time, you can sort of understand why Dowd thought it was. It's tough one with the deflection it takes, and it's harsh.

It also means Liverpool are in a final of a cup, and will probably win. Dowd should probably be demoted for somehow letting that happen. Just unacceptable at this level of football. I mean, who the fuck wants to see Self-Defence Stevie dancing about with a trophy above his head? Then there's Carra, who will give a post-match interview using the phrase "y'know" at least 3 dozen times, whilst spitting a pint of saliva all over Geoff Shreeves. Disgrace. Dowd out!

[Spoonie]

If you're sticking your arms out wide or in an unatural position away from your body, then you are knowlingly putting them in a position where the ball could realistically strike it.

It's unnatural to slide, jump or lunge to block in any way without your arms being away from your body tho. you use them to gain momentum.

[Soda Jerk]

It's true, which is why it's so open to interpretation, regardless of what the rule says. I don't think anyone really ever handles the ball on purpose, do they? Other than Thierry Henry.

[The Milner]

Or louis im a cunt suarez.

[Spoonie]

You see occaisonal ones but it's usually so obvious that it'd be almost impossible not to tell

[The Milner]

It's unnatural to slide, jump or lunge to block in any way without your arms being away from your body tho. you use them to gain momentum.

Agreed but it is possible to do both without your arms interfiling with the ball. Its always going to be a tough one, and there will always be calls given we dont understand, probably one of the issues with having a subjective rule.

[Spoonie]

Taking last night as an example tho, he used his arms to slide in and block the ball, which was on the ground at the time. His arms were as far from the ball as he could have put them, but then one ricochet and it's ball to hand

[The Milner]

Yeah your right, it was ball to hand last night, but i think from where the ref was it looked like the ball hit him on the arm first, in that instance i would say its handball and his arms were up quite high.

[Spoonie]

I thought the ref was shown as being right on the edge of the box, facing the play, off to the side of the striker? Either way, it's football and these things will happen until FIFA start reading this thread and pick up on my sweet plan for TV intervention

[Soda Jerk]

That handball wouldn't have happaned if FIFA had forced Liverpool into mandatory liquidation. When will they learn? Corrupt.

[The Milner]

Spoonie for fifa presidency, lets make it happen.

[Paranoid Android]

Soda Jerk for liverpool liquidator, lets make it happen.

[Soda Jerk]

I don't like Stephen Hunt either. Can I liquidate him?

[Spoonie]

Me and SJ will tear world football two new holes. One in, one out.

[FOX]

I would liquidate every single Liverpool player really.

ALSO (this is referencing a few pages back but hey ho): Handballs are indeed often a case of "this was deliberate", but if you have a ball fly full force at your face then you're going to stick out a hand to stop it. It's an instinct. Deliberate? Well that depends on the situation. But it rarely is deliberate, but often looks deliberate, so it's often a soft penalty.

[The Milner]

pah, take it in the face like a real man, do you think Willie Millar cared about getting hit in the face with a football? That was long before these light fairy footballs they use now a days as well, those things were like lead balloons when it was wet. Modern footballers are wimps.