Wind-up?

[scottyboy]

Excuse me, but this thread is about 20 days old, the band had been around for ages - please take this fact on board. And also, if society is full of idiots like me who can't discern the obvious irony in things like you oh so intelligent folks can, then your argument is essentailly society is stupid and so it doesn't matter what happens to it. Which is fair enough if thats your view, just thought I'd point it out. However if it is, it's pointless to pretend you're debating the view that wifebeater wouldn't have a negative influence - as clearly you realise they would and wouldn't care.

And no I'm not screaming they encourage domestic abuse, I've discussed how they are likely to have a negative effect on at least some folk - and this point is made countless times - especially well, I think, in the bit where we were talking about cultural effects and society prejudices towards sex.

But what I am saying is, prior to about 20 days ago the band's music along with gig footage was freely available on myspace. Therefore, one could have listened to it first hand to decide whether it was ironic or not.

Assuming I do think society is full of idiots, what then do you think Wifebeater should have done to prevent their music having an effect on said idiots? Or do you just think they shouldn't have existed at all?

[Rob_86]

But what I am saying is, prior to about 20 days ago the band's music along with gig footage was freely available on myspace. Therefore, one could have listened to it first hand to decide whether it was ironic or not.

Assuming I do think society is full of idiots, what then do you think Wifebeater should have done to prevent their music having an effect on said idiots? Or do you just think they shouldn't have existed at all?

And I did listen, and watched at least one video ( I don't have it logged down in my book of bad bands activity unfortunately), there isn't really anything different from what you would expect an actual sexist, violence promoting band to sound like - from my experience of what Nazi bands and the such sound like, though I have never had attention drawn to an outrightly only 'wifebeating' band before. Thats crosses the line as far as I I'm concerned. Theres some use in debating where the line is exactly, and how far it should go - but when a band does that bad a job of irony - to the extent where most of us (assumedly most) see nothing but another nazi-esque band.

Well in my opinion, if a band do think about what they are actually doing occasionally - and realise they are rubbing people the opposite way to what they intend to, the right thing to do is remedy situation isn't it. And perhaps if this sort of issue had a say in the band splitting, then they have done the right thing.

[scottyboy]

And I did listen, and watched at least one video ( I don't have it logged down in my book of bad bands activity unfortunately), there isn't really anything different from what you would expect an actual sexist, violence promoting band to sound like - from my experience of what Nazi bands and the such sound like, though I have never had attention drawn to an outrightly only 'wifebeating' band before. Thats crosses the line as far as I I'm concerned. Theres some use in debating where the line is exactly, and how far it should go - but when a band does that bad a job of irony - to the extent where most of us (assumedly most) see nothing but another nazi-esque band.

Well in my opinion, if a band do think about what they are actually doing occasionally - and realise they are rubbing people the opposite way to what they intend to, the right thing to do is remedy situation isn't it. And perhaps if this sort of issue had a say in the band splitting, then they have done the right thing.

I guess Easton Ellis really should have said killing people is wrong.

Fair enough, but I will never agree with the notion that any kind of parodic art or satire shouldn't exist because a majority (who would not have been interested without media crusades) cannot understand it.

[Rob_86]

I guess Easton Ellis really should have said killing people is wrong.

Fair enough, but I will never agree with the notion that any kind of parodic art or satire shouldn't exist because a majority (who would not have been interested without media crusades) cannot understand it.

I can understand where you are coming from to a degree, I think you're right that parodic art that isn't understood by the massess isn't necesarily a bad thing. I do think however that the danger appears when it is a potentially very damaging subject matter or done in the wrong way. For instance, you can't imagine paedophiles being influenced negatively by brasseye, despite the fact the public in large numbers found it offensive. They didn't neccesarily 'get' the irony, but they realised it was ironic and not a promotion of paedophilia. They just thought it was offensive. It's different here though, it's not just that sort of offensiveness - it is the lack of realisation of any sort of parody by most - and the possibility that this is culturally damaging on different levels.

I see your point about media crusades though, and also share your sentiments that people being offended on mass doesn't necesarily mean an art form shouldn't exist (in the case of things like brasseye).

[Guest Exposure @ Lemon Tree]

Rob, again - I'm not being aggressive in my posts. I'm just putting forward my opinon. I am open to changing my opinion if I'm persuaded to, but all I'm saying is, your points don't persuade me to change because I disagree.

You keep trying to make it out as if I'm the one with set in stone opinions, reiterating the same point over and over again, but that's exactly what you are doing as well.

It seems as if you won't change your opinion, and I won't change my opinion, so we should agree to disagree.

Of course everything is open to discussion, and people change their views all the time. What I am saying is I respect the fact you have your opinion but I don't agree with you. You are saying that you respect the fact I have an opinon, but you don't agree with it, and therefore I should change my opinion to be more agreeable with your opinion.

EDIT: And please stop comparing Wifebeater to a nazi or nazi-esque band.

[The Milner]

rep points to the next person who can use opinion more times in a sentence than that

[Guest treader.]

Opinion opinion opinion opinion opinion.

It's technically a sentence.

Edit reply from Chris: No, it's not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentence_(linguistics)

[Bigsby]

rep points to the next person who can use opinion more times in a sentence than that

Well, it's only my opinion, and I must admit that in my wife's opinion I am often self-opinionated, but I am of the clear opinion that Rob's opinion cannot be justified.

[Bigsby]

Sorry, I can't spell so my argument is mute

I really hope that this was intended to be ironic.

[Rob_86]

Rob, again - I'm not being aggressive in my posts. I'm just putting forward my opinon. I am open to changing my opinion if I'm persuaded to, but all I'm saying is, your points don't persuade me to change because I disagree.

You keep trying to make it out as if I'm the one with set in stone opinions, reiterating the same point over and over again, but that's exactly what you are doing as well.

It seems as if you won't change your opinion, and I won't change my opinion, so we should agree to disagree.

Of course everything is open to discussion, and people change their views all the time. What I am saying is I respect the fact you have your opinion but I don't agree with you. You are saying that you respect the fact I have an opinon, but you don't agree with it, and therefore I should change my opinion to be more agreeable with your opinion.

EDIT: And please stop comparing Wifebeater to a nazi or nazi-esque band.

I'm not, I'm just saying that debating is useful unless everyone gives up immediately, deciding that everyone disagrees. I have never said I wanted everyone to come to my opinion, just debate the issue - and if that is done, without overly inputing tastes and unprovable things into the pot, then there should be a pretty clear answer like there is in most issues. And I think a couple of times today this has become quite close with a couple of folk I've spoken to on here - not through anyone changing per se, but just straightening issues out.

Well they are comparable to a nazi band if you don't spot the intended irony! Even more so if we consider the example of a nazi band, who claims irony after they split up. It seems to be a pretty good analogy, what's the problem? I realise they aren't a nazi band, and didn't intend to be a domestic abuse supporting band either - the analogy is still useful though.

Two paragraphs, lots of talk of debate, but no use of the word opinion...oh

[Rob_86]

I really hope that this was intended to be ironic.

[Guest treader.]

There is a difference between beating your wife and Nazi beliefs.

If you cannot see that, you're a grade A nugget.

[davidm]

Opinion opinion opinion opinion opinion.

It's technically a sentence.

Edit reply from Chris: No, it's not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentence_(linguistics)

Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

ace

[Guest treader.]

Opinion opinion opinion opinion opinion.

It's technically a sentence.

Edit reply from Chris: No, it's not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentence_(linguistics)

Stop doing that, you stupid assface.

Edit from Chris: I will when the facebook thing stops restricting my ability to post properly!

[Bigsby]

Never heard of buffalo as a verb before.

Not a senence, but always a cracker for hangman:

Mmm Mmm Mmm Mmm - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Rob_86]

There is a difference between beating your wife and Nazi beliefs.

If you cannot see that, you're a grade A nugget.

Sigh...they are still useful analogies for moral issues here, as there aren't any clear cut bands that are pro just 'wifebeating', and given that everyone here (well assumedly, so far) isn't pro either of those things, then the analogy is pretty good. Assumedly a band that did promote domestic abuse wouldn't be far different from other bands that promote such anti-mainstream morality - so again theres a good link which works as a good analogy if it is that part of the issue which is relevant.

[Rob_86]

Never heard of buffalo as a verb before.

Not a senence, but always a cracker for hangman:

Mmm Mmm Mmm Mmm - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Unless someone says 'M' on their first turn

[Nev]

Sorry, I can't spell so my argument is mute - i forgot that great rule of discussion.

Pleanty of reasoning in there mate if you wanna take a look back to the begining - if you disagree with me why not counter the arguments rather than making clever sounding swipes at me? Two can play the 'analyse what the comments are doing in a bid to devalue the overall argument' game...

Jesus Wifebeating Motherfuck.

I never said I disagreed with you (nor that I agree), and I don't wish to get involved in a thoroughly pointless debate that had been done to death long before you posted essentially the same arguments x amount of times.

What I was trying to point out, albeit in a "clever sounding swipe" (I'll take that as a compliment, thanks), was that you've regurgitated the same four points for 20 fucking pages, and pretty much all you've done in response to any dissent whatsoever is nit-pick, point out how strong you feel your argument is, and dismiss anyone else's viewpoint.

You'll notice I said your points came across as authoritative other than the mis-spelling of a word you used a number of times. Had I been in a harsher mood, I'd have said "you come across as an arrogant, monotonous bag of toss".

Funnily enough, the 'analyse what the comments are doing in a bid to devalue the overall argument' game you accuse me of playing is exactly what you come across as doing.

You arrogant, monotonous bag of toss.

[Bin Laden's Daughter]

On the contrary, I have discussed the points you make and think I have ignored, on censorship and how this band strikes me as a bit different to other examples that people bought up earlier in the thread

Where about have you talked about 'Police Truck' ? There is no apparent irony in the song, no more so than 'She walked into a Door', or the Crass lyrics?

In fact you dismissed my rather long post in a couple o sentences, completely refusing to acknowledge several points I made- such as the hypothetical reasons why someone might choose to sing about this stuff. You also ignored the fact that I called you on likening a band to Nazi's when they have clearly stated this is not the case, and you keep doing it. I put it to you that your controlling ideology is, in fact, far closer to right wing politics than anything said by anyone else, as already called by somebody else. You also ignored the point I made that Wifebeater did not perform to impressionable young audiences very much- mostly in over-18 venues. The point you were trying to make was that they could give the wrong message to young fans...

You ARE stating your opinion, but counting it as fact. I see little or no back up for your argument other than- 'because I say so and I know these things' type statements.

Nazi bands are something no-one has said they explicitly support the idea of, so they are a good place to start analogously speaking.

No, no, no, no. Wrong- very wrong. Nazi bands are generally quite up front about their sick political stance. Wifebeater were plainly ironic to anyone who took the time to find out. Our band has Antifa/ Class War/ political content displayed on our myspaz and in the lyrics etc. Why would Wifebeater take anything to do with us if they were right wing, mysoginistic morons? Why would we take anything to do with them? Don't you think that we had suspicion about them at first- but quickly realised what the score was? Hell, I even saw Jake reading a book about Lenin (don't deny it ye bolshevik cunt! ;D). You could have taken in one of their gigs and SPOKE TO THE PEOPLE INVOLVED. We did. But you didn't, so your arguments are based on conjecture- that is why they are not totally valid, nae because ye cannae spell!

you just need a disposition to not respect other humans and it is taken from there

Horseshit.

Domestic violence can run a huge gamut of causation. The old firm game at the weekend is the latest example. Also things like stress/ depression/ alcoholism and drug abuse are far more influential on domestic violence than any band will ever be.

Well disguised sideswipes about a bands music being shit and them having no fans are far more low-brow than irony. That is purely subjective. If you're in a band, there will doubtless be untold thousands who think you're shite an' aw! Same for us- doubtless there will be many, many people who just think we're all a tuneless racket with a bunch of morons shouting and swearing all over it.

Those videos you were talking about...

the live ones were filmed by me at the Moorings and put up on youtube by me.

The other one that was on the go has scenes from 'Nil by Mouth' all the way through. Nil by Mouth was a very anti- domestic violence film. I know the guy who made that video and posted it and I know his feelings on domestic violence- him having come from a family where these things went on and also having been a victim of domestic violence from a one time spouse.

So again- do your research first. Anything else is reactionary and counter productive- it also makes you look bad when you don't.

Rob- I respect where you are coming from, and I believe we would have much common ground, just not on this- I'm nae trying to be a dick and if I had any shred of belief that Wifebeater or any of it's members were pro-domestic violence, we would have had absolutely nothing to do with them. To us, this was clearly not the case, because we took the time to get to know them and they seem like good guys who we're happy to have been involved with, despite what others might think about that.

In combatting domestic abuse it would be far more productive to beat the shit out of wifebeaters than to verbally assault a band called Wifebeater, who have (now) clearly stated it's intention as irony- and yet I fully expect you will post again, ignore salient points and tackle those who are being rude and abusive because it's easier and gives you a moral high ground.. At the very least, have some respect for the band as people and do not automatically assume they are liars and covering up their mysogeny. Talk to them, formulate an opinion based on knowledge, not hearsay.

Boing- I'm sick of this now. Over and out.

[Rob_86]

Jesus Wifebeating Motherfuck.

I never said I disagreed with you (nor that I agree), and I don't wish to get involved in a thoroughly pointless debate that had been done to death long before you posted essentially the same arguments x amount of times.

What I was trying to point out, albeit in a "clever sounding swipe" (I'll take that as a compliment, thanks), was that you've regurgitated the same four points for 20 fucking pages, and pretty much all you've done in response to any dissent whatsoever is nit-pick, point out how strong you feel your argument is, and dismiss anyone else's viewpoint.

You'll notice I said your points came across as authoritative other than the mis-spelling of a word you used a number of times. Had I been in a harsher mood, I'd have said "you come across as an arrogant, monotonous bag of toss".

Funnily enough, the 'analyse what the comments are doing in a bid to devalue the overall argument' game you accuse me of playing is exactly what you come across as doing.

You arrogant, monotonous bag of toss.

Wow, you're so clever - try actually reading the posts before judging please. I reply in kind, if there is a sensible response, I reply with a sensible answer - if people respond like 12 year kids trying to grab attention then I dismiss them - hence the dismissal in this post

[Rob_86]

Where about have you talked about 'Police Truck' ? There is no apparent irony in the song, no more so than 'She walked into a Door', or the Crass lyrics?

In fact you dismissed my rather long post in a couple o sentences, completely refusing to acknowledge several points I made- such as the hypothetical reasons why someone might choose to sing about this stuff. You also ignored the fact that I called you on likening a band to Nazi's when they have clearly stated this is not the case, and you keep doing it. I put it to you that your controlling ideology is, in fact, far closer to right wing politics than anything said by anyone else, as already called by somebody else. You also ignored the point I made that Wifebeater did not perform to impressionable young audiences very much- mostly in over-18 venues. The point you were trying to make was that they could give the wrong message to young fans...

You ARE stating your opinion, but counting it as fact. I see little or no back up for your argument other than- 'because I say so and I know these things' type statements.

No, no, no, no. Wrong- very wrong. Nazi bands are generally quite up front about their sick political stance. Wifebeater were plainly ironic to anyone who took the time to find out. Our band has Antifa/ Class War/ political content displayed on our myspaz and in the lyrics etc. Why would Wifebeater take anything to do with us if they were right wing, mysoginistic morons? Why would we take anything to do with them? Don't you think that we had suspicion about them at first- but quickly realised what the score was? Hell, I even saw Jake reading a book about Lenin (don't deny it ye bolshevik cunt! ;D). You could have taken in one of their gigs and SPOKE TO THE PEOPLE INVOLVED. We did. But you didn't, so your arguments are based on conjecture- that is why they are not totally valid, nae because ye cannae spell!

Horseshit.

Domestic violence can run a huge gamut of causation. The old firm game at the weekend is the latest example. Also things like stress/ depression/ alcoholism and drug abuse are far more influential on domestic violence than any band will ever be.

Well disguised sideswipes about a bands music being shit and them having no fans are far more low-brow than irony. That is purely subjective. If you're in a band, there will doubtless be untold thousands who think you're shite an' aw! Same for us- doubtless there will be many, many people who just think we're all a tuneless racket with a bunch of morons shouting and swearing all over it.

Those videos you were talking about...

the live ones were filmed by me at the Moorings and put up on youtube by me.

The other one that was on the go has scenes from 'Nil by Mouth' all the way through. Nil by Mouth was a very anti- domestic violence film. I know the guy who made that video and posted it and I know his feelings on domestic violence- him having come from a family where these things went on and also having been a victim of domestic violence from a one time spouse.

So again- do your research first. Anything else is reactionary and counter productive- it also makes you look bad when you don't.

Rob- I respect where you are coming from, and I believe we would have much common ground, just not on this- I'm nae trying to be a dick and if I had any shred of belief that Wifebeater or any of it's members were pro-domestic violence, we would have had absolutely nothing to do with them. To us, this was clearly not the case, because we took the time to get to know them and they seem like good guys who we're happy to have been involved with, despite what others might think about that.

In combatting domestic abuse it would be far more productive to beat the shit out of wifebeaters than to verbally assault a band called Wifebeater, who have (now) clearly stated it's intention as irony- and yet I fully expect you will post again, ignore salient points and tackle those who are being rude and abusive because it's easier and gives you a moral high ground.. At the very least, have some respect for the band as people and do not automatically assume they are liars and covering up their mysogeny. Talk to them, formulate an opinion based on knowledge, not hearsay.

Boing- I'm sick of this now. Over and out.

No offence - but the fact you're bored of this would imply you wouldn't comment the same things already discussed on other pages. Ie, the fact that irony was obvious - which it wasn't to most except those who would presumably see irony in anything... And the idea of any influence they would have being direct at gigs and what not, when it was discussed on other pages that the damage would mostly have been of a cultural type - and the inherent dangers there of.

And your point about Nazi bands is highly debatable, and not the fact you propose - theres plenty who just make statement through their music (especially on local scenes when they think all they can get away with is doing it through their music), and when you see a band doing this, and spot no irony, then why on earth wouldn't you assume they aren't serious - unless you're outlook on life is so optimistic that you just assume irony in everything unless completely proved otherwise?!

Of course I agree that drugs/alcohol/etc are bigger influences on domestic violence - but for different reasons there isn't a whole lot of point discussing there bad effects here! And I wasn't saying their music there was shit, but i bought up that points because time after time earlier I had it rammed down my throat that they were and that they had no fans - and making that point were I did was for a reason, not to state my opinion on their music!

I'm not sure what your video point is getting at - presumably that I lied by saying I'd watched a video?! I can assure you I did, though I have no way to prove it so you don't have to believe me jesus

As for your last few points - firstly, my intention isn't to take the piss out of the band or condem them for being sexist. I have stated many times, I don't know them and they might well be nice enough guys (all be it I don't share the same sense of humour as them lol). I am simply making the point that bands like this aren't a good idea - and I think sometimes things go past a joke and have worrying affects on our culture. I think someone said before, it's one thing to make jokes like this to your mates, but the way going about making a band about these jokes where it isn't obviously irony to most, is a bad idea. And as much as I see freedom of speech as important, it's more important for people to think about what they are saying/how they are expressing themself. If we can all see how Nazi bands are dangerous (especially when you realise members of the BNP are known to be fans of certain bands) then we can see how music can be dangerous. And no, I'm not saying wifebeater were a Nazi band, or that the guys had right wing views - just that the humour in their music could have ended being completely irresponsible as to their cause. And no-one has the right to shun that responsibility just as it was intended irony. Not everyone can talk to the band and know them personally so as to discover their 'irony' - doesn't stop the subtle effects they might have.

[Guest Exposure @ Lemon Tree]

Did you ever see Wifebeater playing a gig?

If not, you can't say what sort of influence they would have on people that did.

[Scorge]

the music wasn't really my thing but would have liked to have caught the show on the 4th. Any further projects in the pipeline?

One off reunion gig on 1st April in the Arbuthnott Village Hall. Only four tickets will be made available: one will be auctioned on Ebay with a reserve of 200 to cover the band's guarantee, the other three can be obtained in exchange for a 24 pack of Stella Artois, or a couple of vests out of Primark. Just text us for details.

BLATANTLY OBVIOUS PC NAZI DISCLAIMER: The above post may contain traces of irony, and blatant lies.

[Rob_86]

Did you ever see Wifebeater playing a gig?

If not, you can't say what sort of influence they would have on people that did.

No, but as someone else stated before, gig going isn't the only way that the band might have influence in culture - and the main points weren't what affect their gigs would have had maninly as people pointed out very few people were there. Though, I know a couple of folk who did see them at another gig, and they didn't see it as 'ironic' as everyone states, but I didn't go, so I wouldn't comment any further than saying it can't have been as obvious as everyone says.

It's still fine to debate what influence a band like this might have, and debate it, is it not? It's not like it really matters about that particular band as they aren't together anymore - but theres still an issue that it brings up, and that is what's being discussed.

[Bin Laden's Daughter]

Saying something is 'generally' the case is not saying it is hard and fast- it means 'mostly, but not always'. Apart from anything else, Nazism is a definable ideology whereas wife-beating is a social problem- not a belief, this makes it a very bad analogy. By drawing a parallel with Nazi bands you are, in effect, tarring Wifebeater with the same brush. Guilt by association. If this is not what you intended, then use a different analogy and live by your own maxim of being careful of how you express yourself because of a perceived negative impact it may or may not have.

The point I was making about the video was that it was not made to glorify domestic violence, as you suggested. It was designed to sicken and disgust you. Which it obviously did. This was also the intention of 'Nil by Mouth' which has achieved much acclaim. I'm sure Ray Winston and Cathy Burke were never accused of 'promoting domestic violence' nor has the film been censored.

I would not accuse a complete stranger of lying without due cause or proof. I was suggesting that you had misread the videos intention- which was as a hard hitting image designed to appaul or shock the viewer.

The point that everyone else is trying to make is that, given your interest in this subject- had you taken the time to go and see the band and talk to it's members, then perhaps you would have understood their intentions. Rather than putting the boot in before you are fully informed. You said you couldn't comment on the Ross/ Brand affair because you didn't know enough about it, but yet you comment on Wifebeater when you don't know a lot about them either. Selective.