Jamie's school dinners

[Cloud]

I'm getting the impression (as usual when you get involved in threads like this to be honest) that you're arguing against something you're not actually informed about. If you'd watched the programme you'd know that Jamie Oliver has researched a nutrionally balanced menu which can be produced for less per head than most current school dinners (around 36p per pupil if I remember correctly) and in addition he's produced strict recipes for the schools involved to follow. They don't have to be inspired or passionate' date=' they just have to follow the fucking recipe.[/quote']

And what if the kids revolt against the recipe? What happens then? It seems you get situations like the one that erupted - which, ultimately, undermines the whole message that Jamie was trying to get across.

Again though, the whole manner of control is something that I can't stand.

At the end of the day I can't believe you're actually arguing against what is an effective campaign to get schoolchildren to eat healthy, balanced meals instead of junk food. It really does beggar belief.

I've no problem with Jamie going on TV and telling kids "eating shit is bad, mmmkay". But I have a huge problem with his attitude that kids should be eating what he says is good without any say or choice in the matter. I don't see any problem in promoting good food, heck, I think it would be positively great if good food was subsidised in schools while rubbish was charged at market rate in order to encourage kids to eat it. Ultimately though, I disagree with any campaign that seeks to limit choice, especially one under very questionable motives.

[Cloud]

While we're at it...

(I'm so much a Tory, I backed the SSP proposals to give free school meals to all children...)

[Stripey]

While we're at it..

(I'm so much a Tory' date=' I backed the SSP proposals to give free school meals to all children...)[/quote']

You are a shining example of the the ignorant offspring of the thatcherite era, obviously you can be forgiven to some extent due to the exuberance of adolescence, but to be honest I don't think that you wont end up maturing into an actual unpleasant roboticised bastard.

[Frosty Jack]

Again though' date=' the whole manner of control is something that I can't stand.[/quote']

Where are you getting this problem of 'control'? It's what you always do - you invent an issue, then use it as your defence. If anything the kids were more controlled before all this. Plenty of opportunities to eat shite, very limited chances to be healthy. Surely (even if it were true) going from 'shite or nothing' to 'healthy or nothing' is an improvement?

But I have a huge problem with his attitude that kids should be eating what he says is good without any say or choice in the matter.

'What he says is good'? Are you saying that his food suggestions are only healthy 'in his opinion'? Is there really any doubt?

[Cloud]

Where are you getting this problem of 'control'? It's what you always do - you invent an issue' date=' then use it as your defence. If anything the kids were more controlled before all this. Plenty of opportunities to eat shite, very limited chances to be healthy. Surely (even if it were true) going from 'shite or nothing' to 'healthy or nothing' is an improvement?[/quote']

Was it really shite or nothing, though? I don't remeber nothing but pure rubbish being served up, even in primary school (and Mile-End's dinners were the absolute pits) - yes, there may have been a focus on rubbish, but there was always good stuff available.

Surely the ideal solution to all of this is to promote healthy food, perhaps with promotions, with perhaps control over just what would be allowed to be promoted as healthy (and hence qualify for subsidy). If the parents get Jamie's message, then logically speaking, it gives the parents the power to decide what they want their kids to eat. That way, choice is retained, while ensuring that healthy food gets promoted over rubbish. Of course, that might make too much sense for the powers that be :\

'What he says is good'? Are you saying that his food suggestions are only healthy 'in his opinion'? Is there really any doubt?

Course there's doubt, when the issue arises over just what is going into the healthy dinners. I dare say his vision is good - but will the implementation be good, especially when the catering is outsourced to companies with a mission to make money? I dare say funding in house catering would be a very good step - but given the reports of kitchens all being ripped out of schools, I dare say it would be a step too far.

[Frosty Jack]

I give up. I don't understand what you're arguing against, and I'm not sure you do either. I feel like I'm explaining to my dog why he shouldn't bark at the postman.

[Old Gold]

The healthy eating promotions they used when I was kicking about the schoolyard were fuck all use.

Surely it's up to the school canteen what they provide for school dinners anyway? They don't provide for every single eating habit anyway, so who says they should provide for kids who shovel junk into their bodies? Because it's the most popular foodstuff? Well, that's a group of people controlling things for another group of people, which is allegedly wrong.

I'm all for Jamie Oliver's crusade against porkers. What ho.

[threeornothing]

They could have been serving me fucking top class gourmet meals when I was at school, I would have still left that school a total fucking loser / no hoper, destined for fuck all....

I am fearing the same for my children...at least when they leave school their palate's will desire food they can't afford from Jamie's sainsbury's range...nice one.

[spellchecker]

They could have been serving me fucking top class gourmet meals when I was at school' date=' I would have still left that school a total fucking loser / no hoper, destined for fuck all....

I am fearing the same for my children...at least when they leave school their palate's will desire food they can't afford from Jamie's sainsbury's range...nice one.[/quote']

or it might teach them that by actually preparing their meals from fresh produce they can eat more cheaply and more healthily (less fat, less salt, less preservatives, less colouring) and using less energy.

[Cloud]

or it might teach them that by actually preparing their meals from fresh produce they can eat more cheaply and more healthily (less fat' date=' less salt, less preservatives, less colouring) and using less energy.[/quote']

Although that might be true in some cases, let me give you a real world example..

Small village convenience store, Isle of Arran. 55 minute bus ride (and £4.20 return fare) from the main town on the island where the only supermarket is - and a good 35/40 minute drive by car along some of the worst roads known to man. Petrol costs £1.10 a litre here due to the distance and ferry crossing involved in transporting it - so in short, it costs a bomb to get to the only supermarket.

We can get frozen convenience goods in pretty cheaply, especially things like bags of oven chips and frozen fish/meat dishes. We can sell oven chips at £1.39 for a huge bag, hash browns for 99p and so on. We make a reasonable profit on each item too. It's entirely possible to get a dinner for four out of the freezer and out of some tins for a fiver.

Fresh produce however costs an absolute bomb - we have to sell mushrooms at close to £3 a kilogram for instance. We can't source a lot of the produce locally at a reasonable price - so it has to come from off the island. Customers also expect a certain quality - for instance, we sell local potatoes at 50p/kg and bagged off-island potatoes for £1/kg. The bagged potatoes fly off the shelf, whereas the local ones are very much a last resort for villagers. Considering the land here, it also wouldn't surprise me if the local potatoes were pumped full of chemicals.

I don't think it would be possible (though i'll ask some of the locals) to feed a family of 4 on less than £5 from our shop on fresh produce - for example, using a pasta base, you would be looking at spending £2 on the pasta alone. Once you add in a couple of peppers (60p each), you're up to £3.20. Add in some onions and you're up to £4 - and that's before you consider even making a sauce.

Eating fresh produce might work fine and well in more populated areas where competition drives prices down, but it doesn't work in a rural setting. Even our eggs have to be sold at £1.30 for half a dozen - so ultimately, it's a lot more expensive to eat fresh than it is to eat frozen here.

Either way, getting most items here involves a considerable amount of energy, be it tinned, frozen or fresh.

Out of interest, how much is a pint of milk in a mainland supermarket now? I haven't been in one for over three months now...

[Cloud]

You are a shining example of the the ignorant offspring of the thatcherite era' date=' obviously you can be forgiven to some extent due to the exuberance of adolescence, but to be honest I don't think that you wont end up maturing into an actual unpleasant roboticised bastard.[/quote']

Let's be honest Stripey, you're the one sitting behind your computer making personal attacks here, while living in some sort of middle class socialist fantasy.

Perhaps a dose of the real world is in order?

[HeinzHines]

I think at the end of the day in simple terms, fuck your freedom of choice, if there is some nannying that i am gonna allow in this country its that kids can eat healthy food at school, it is ludicris to argue against something that is cleary a good idea, infringing on peoples rights to choice or not.

EDIT: Your argument about fresh food costing more on your island is null and void because 99% of our population live within close reach of a cheap supermarket, it might be a shitter living there, but meh, thats your choice!

[pogofish]

Are you saying that his food suggestions are only healthy 'in his opinion'? Is there really any doubt?

Yes, there is a lot of doubt. The healthy-eating issue is often clouded by a whole lot of self & commercial interest, politics, food-faddery, misinformation & public health policy in this country is still often underlined by an attitude of patronising contempt for "the public"

If you want an example of what can be done tho, look at Finland, where 25+ years of intervention to change a diet & health record that was initially worse than Scotland's has paid-off big-time. Much of it was done via a subsidy/tax regieme, making less-healthy foods much dearer than the alternative & a great deal of that went into making a good range of fresh produce available to remote communities. All-in, it took the sort of state intervention that goes down like a lead baloon in this country. The alcohol restrictions - including no going between pubs & State Alcohol Shops (like sex-shops here) were a bugger tho.

[Frosty Jack]

Although that might be true in some cases' date=' let me give you a real world example..

Small village convenience store, Isle of Arran...

really pricey...

ooh, and the petrol...

potatoes like you wouldn't believe...

peppers. how much???

don't even ask about the eggs...

etc.[/quote']

What. The. Fuck. are you quacking on about? You're arguing that the whole concept of improving the future nation's health, improving education, and possibly averting a national crisis, is a waste of time because stuff in your own shop is very expensive?

*Phones Jamie*

"No, sorry... it's all off. A complete waste of time, you'll have to pack it in.

Yep , it's what we feared.... yes, that little place on Arran... 1.30 for half a dozen, yeah..."

You've done it again - invent a spurious and totally irrelevant point, and present it as your side of whatever argument you think you're having.

I don't see where you're going with this, your presentation didn't do anything for me, so for that reason, I'M OUT.

[pogofish]

it is ludicris to argue against something that is cleary a good idea' date=' infringing on peoples rights to choice or not.[/quote']

So, what are you going to do when your right to decide/direct how your kid gets educated is removed completely? They havr been chipping away steadilly at that for the last few years.

[Stripey]

You've done it again - invent a spurious and totally irrelevant point' date=' and present it as your side of whatever argument you think you're having.

I don't see where you're going with this, your presentation didn't do anything for me, so for that reason, I'M OUT.

[/quote']

Seconded. I'm off to fix my middle-class dreds and hug a tree.

[HeinzHines]

So' date=' what are you going to do when your right to decide/direct how your kid gets educated is removed completely? They havr been chipping away steadilly at that for the last few years.[/quote']

Well lets quote one of the other lines from my statement.

if there is some nannying that i am gonna allow in this country its that kids can eat healthy food at school

Im all for freedom of choice in most cases, but this isnt something of a power trip for the goverment, its about making kids more healthy, its nothing but a good nanny power.

[threeornothing]

or it might teach them that by actually preparing their meals from fresh produce they can eat more cheaply and more healthily (less fat' date=' less salt, less preservatives, less colouring) and using less energy.[/quote']

No money still buys no food....healthy or otherwise....which is my dilemma

[pogofish]

but this isnt something of a power trip for the goverment' date=' its about making kids more healthy, its nothing but a good nanny power.[/quote']

I don't agree & the collection of highly contradictory & often self-serving characters & organisations jumping-on the bandwagon might suggest that their side is at least as fucked-up as the other. The truth, as ever lies somewhere between.

Again, the issue of child health is a whole lot wider than just school dinners.

[Lexicon Devil]

Del - I think' date=' though I might be wrong, that a lot of "healthy" stuff is as bad as McDonald's offering. One example - we got some horrible (I didn't order it!) sliced ham in today. On the cover, it says "95% FAT FREE!" along with some rubbish about being useful for diets. Now, unless I'm wrong...that means it contains 5% fat, which is surely fairly significant in the grand scheme of things?[/quote']

It's not as black and white as that. There's more than one type of fat, including both "good" and "bad". If you knew anything about a balanced diet you'd be aware that healthy fats are a major component of your suggested daily food intake. ( 30% being the approximate max)

While I'm sure the fat in that Ham isn't going to be paticularly healthy, do realise fat does not necessarily equal bad. The same goes for Oils etc.

[Fast Caz]

A big reheated greasy scotch pie covered in mash and gravy that will cost you around £2-£3 or a homemade tomato pasta dish mixed with herbs onions and peppers cooked only with a hot stove and some boiled water which from experiance costs around £5 which will feed up to 4 people.

hmm god knows what is better and tastier ?

Fucking ignorant society.

A deep fried mars bar and a candy apple for my tea tonight i think.

[threeornothing]

What's everyones problem with kids being unable to identify vegetables? I couldn't tell you what half the vegetables are and I'm a vegeterian...

[pogofish]

Yesterdays conviction of the Middlefield head teacher seems appropriate:

She was also found guilty of dragging a girl from the dinner hall for lying to her about eating her lunch. She had also been accused of trying to force feed the girl but this was dropped.

Taylor had become angry when the girl had lied to her that she had eaten her soup and had grabbed her from her chair pulled her over "at least one rubbish bucket" on the way out of the dining hall, lifting her feet off the floor.

The girl, described as "a small, shy and quiet child and certainly not a troublemaker", was too traumatised to remain at Middlefield.

Sheriff Buchanan said he was satisfied Taylor had acted "spitefully and vindictively" with the intention of hurting and humiliating the girl in front of other pupils and said Taylor's behaviour was "improper, disproportionate and excessive

http://thisisnorthscotland.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=149212&command=displayContent&sourceNode=200378&home=yes&more_nodeId1=149215&contentPK=15503078

This fine example of "encouragement" to healthy eating, more than anything is a reason why schools/authorities should not get any more powers. I've seen far too much of this sort of abuse, both from my own school days & during the years I spent working in schools.

[Frosty Jack]

Yesterdays conviction of the Middlefield head teacher seems appropriate:

http://thisisnorthscotland.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=149212&command=displayContent&sourceNode=200378&home=yes&more_nodeId1=149215&contentPK=15503078

This fine example of "encouragement" to healthy eating, more than anything is a reason why schools/authorities should not get any more powers. I've seen far too much of this sort of abuse, both from my own school days & during the years I spent working in schools.

Oh come on... Are you really trying to say that if healthy eating is promoted in schools, it will encourage teachers to behave like this? Really??? Clutching at straws, surely...

This woman is a psycho who has now been banned from ever being a teacher again. She has NOTHING to do with this.

[pogofish]

Oh come on... Are you really trying to say that if healthy eating is promoted in schools, it will encourage teachers to behave like this? Really???

This woman is a psycho who has now been banned from ever being a teacher again. She has NOTHING to do with this.

It might well encourage some teachers yes. In fact, I've got no shortage of not dissimilar stories from my own schooldays & later from when I worked in schools - As well as being remaindered as one myself, difficult/troubled kids became my stock-in-trade for several years.

One of the prime reasons I quit, on very bad terms with my last employers was because of their unwillingness to face-up to & complete inability to deal adequately with this sort of "teacher." Even in situations where serious professional misconduct was proven. So yes, until authorities sort-out their problems with staff discipline & professional-standards/competence monitoring to ensure this can never happen again, I can barely recognise that they have any role in modern education.