Should bands get money for playing gigs?

[Guest Bob]

Something was said to me today and I wanted to see what other board members thought of this:

The assertion was that bands like Point of Origin and other "local" bands should be greatful for the gigs we get and shouldn't expect any payment. It was further suggested that asking for money was just a case of bands "playing at rockstars" and "just trying to be something above [our] station ".

What do you think?

[Adam Easy Wishes]

If the promoter is charging people to go to the show, then bands should be paid. If it's free entry, then it's understandable if the promoter hasn't got anything to give the band - I don't agree with them paying out of their own pocket as such.

But if you're a touring band, playing shows outside of your home town, you need money for food, petrol, van hire and all that malarky. So yeah...without the bands, there's no show; so if there's any money made, bands should get at least some of it.

[torn]

Pretty much what Adam said, plus in some venues you need to bring your own equipment and if you don't have anything that's stage worthy that means renting or borrowing and that can mean money so by being paid the band can at least cover any expenses they may have. Plus how else do some bands get the money to record demoes and the like, unless all are working and have money to spare gigging is the only other way to make money for your band's purposes.

[threeornothing]

Obviously said by an idiot, or someone in a crap band / not in a band at all....

Once upon a time, I'll admit I had a slightly biased view (heavily influenced by the DIY ethics of punk, which don't always translate very well)...and bascially thought that high amounts of money being payed for playing a 20 minute gig was a bit of a joke, and that money to cover petrol (fucking essential, punk or not) maybe some beers and a tenner or so to go towards the amount of money you spent (or wasted as the case sometimes feels) towards prepping for the gig (strings, practice, batteries, sticks, skins, cymbals etc.) was adequate.....this is all fine and well...although this was never the reality, playing for a tenner starts to suck after a while after

24 - 2 hours practice night before

5 - set of new strings

6 - cans of juice drunk at practice (so you don't die)

2 - handful of plectrums

if you're not so lucky to have transport

15 on taxis (both ways)

30 on blank CD's to sell at gig (and a whole day wasted copying them, and no ones buying any)

20 on drinks at the gig (at some venues, this can consist of as little as a pint each member)

Total money you spent prepping for that gig: 102......for a local gig....and you get 10, net loss -92

Band/Members are then down 92....new gig, spend same again, get even less....band have then plunged almost 200 into nothing....

So anyone that says bands don't deserve to be paid and that money is a bonus....fuck off

Of course....things could be planned better....and if you to play to a crowd of 5 then obviously theres not really going to have been enough money generated to pay your expenses.....so bands should put in that extra effort to ensure a crowd turns up....this is an art in itself and if anyone in Aberdeen in a band that doesn't go to school or have a lot of mates that like the same music perfects it, let me know!!!!!

[psydoll]

Originally posted by Keilan 303:

24 - 2 hours practice night before

5 - set of new strings

6 - cans of juice drunk at practice (so you don't die)

2 - handful of plectrums

if you're not so lucky to have transport

15 on taxis (both ways)

30 on blank CD's to sell at gig (and a whole day wasted copying them, and no ones buying any)

20 on drinks at the gig (at some venues, this can consist of as little as a pint each member)

The chance to play a stinky venue for free...priceless.

Seriously though this post puts it better than I think anyone could - how long are you going to last as a band with that kind of financial loss?

[Hog]

Personally its nice to get a tenner from time to time to pay for some costs but Im not bothered if I dont get anything. Enjoying the gig and hopefully the crowd enjoying the gig is far more important

[mexineil]

Originally posted by Keilan 303:

Obviously said by an idiot, or someone in a crap band / not in a band at all....

24 - 2 hours practice night before

5 - set of new strings

6 - cans of juice drunk at practice (so you don't die)

2 - handful of plectrums

if you're not so lucky to have transport

15 on taxis (both ways)

30 on blank CD's to sell at gig (and a whole day wasted copying them, and no ones buying any)

20 on drinks at the gig (at some venues, this can consist of as little as a pint each member)

Total money you spent prepping for that gig: 102......for a local gig....and you get 10, net loss -92

While i can kind of see both sides of the argument here - I think your figures are pretty over the top and exaggerated. If this was true for every gig, most bands would be about 10,000 in debt. For instance, the CDs you make will last you til the next gig and the one after that and so on, until you sell them all, by which time you'll have made a profit or at least money back anyway. As for the practice, strings and plectrums - you don't need to practice before every gig, same goes for buying strings and plectrums. And so on.. I can see your point, but i think this list isn't very realistic and is just to try and get your side of argument across.

I think bands should get paid if the promoter is going to be making a lot of money from the gig, after all, he's making money from them - but it should really be a bonus - if you want to play your music in a band, then you can't expect to get paid all the time, afterall, there's a lot of competition out there. Plus I think the most important thing about being in a band is going out, playing shows, having fun and seeing people enjoying your songs.

Also, you need to find a new place to buy your CD-Rs.

[Guest Bob]

Originally posted by mexineil:

you don't need to practice before every gig

I know, what a needless luxury!

[Guest Bob]

Originally posted by Keilan 303:

Once upon a time, I'll admit I had a slightly biased view (heavily influenced by the DIY ethics of punk, which don't always translate very well)...and bascially thought that high amounts of money being payed for playing a 20 minute gig was a bit of a joke

Wanting a little money for your hard work, effort and time is not anti-DIY. It's anti-communist, but it's not anti-DIY. Playing for free for the masses is really fucking cool, but try this at your local music shop:

"Hi, I'm in a DIY punk band playing for the people tonight at [insert name here]. Come along, its free and it'll rock!"

"Sounds good man, will do."

"Yeah, so anyway, I want some free strings and plectrums for the gig."

"I can't do that. We're not in business to give things away!"

"Fuck you, you capitalist swine!"

Paying hard-working touring bands is PRO DIY and PRO Indie music.

So next time you're asked to play a free gig that's not for charity perhaps you should say, "We're not in business to give things away". Otherwise you're only devaluing our product. Live music.

[threeornothing]

Originally posted by mexineil:

While i can kind of see both sides of the argument here - I think your figures are pretty over the top and exaggerated. If this was true for every gig, most bands would be about 10,000 in debt. For instance, the CDs you make will last you til the next gig and the one after that and so on, until you sell them all, by which time you'll have made a profit or at least money back anyway. As for the practice, strings and plectrums - you don't need to practice before every gig, same goes for buying strings and plectrums. And so on.. I can see your point, but i think this list isn't very realistic and is just to try and get your side of argument across.

I think bands should get paid if the promoter is going to be making a lot of money from the gig, after all, he's making money from them - but it should really be a bonus - if you want to play your music in a band, then you can't expect to get paid all the time, afterall, there's a lot of competition out there. Plus I think the most important thing about being in a band is going out, playing shows, having fun and seeing people enjoying your songs.

Also, you need to find a new place to buy your CD-Rs.

I based the figures on what I've spent before all gigs I've played in the last year and a half.....yes I am in serious debt

[threeornothing]

Originally posted by Bob:

Wanting a little money for your hard work, effort and time is not anti-DIY. It's anti-communist, but it's not anti-DIY. Playing for free for the masses is really fucking cool, but try this at your local music shop:

"Hi, I'm in a DIY punk band playing for the people tonight at [insert name here]. Come along, its free and it'll rock!"

"Sounds good man, will do."

"Yeah, so anyway, I want some free strings and plectrums for the gig."

"I can't do that. We're not in business to give things away!"

"Fuck you, you capitalist swine!"

Paying hard-working touring bands is PRO DIY and PRO Indie music.

So next time you're asked to play a free gig that's not for charity perhaps you should say, "We're not in business to give things away". Otherwise you're only devaluing our product. Live music.

Hey I'm with you man...but seriously...some "respected" people in the "DIY scene" (bob the builder) can sleep perfect at night after telling a handful of bands "uhh sorry...its all DIY, we can't pay you....." and once upon a time I'd say "yeah, its cool!".

I'm all for free gigs, free gigs for charity etc.....just count me out these days :D

[Camie]

Originally posted by Keilan 303:

24 - 2 hours practice night before

5 - set of new strings

6 - cans of juice drunk at practice (so you don't die)

2 - handful of plectrums

if you're not so lucky to have transport

15 on taxis (both ways)

30 on blank CD's to sell at gig (and a whole day wasted copying them, and no ones buying any)

20 on drinks at the gig (at some venues, this can consist of as little as a pint each member)

Only some of those thigns are improtant and are for the gig. The blank cd's are for yourself and not needed for the gig so promoter should nto have to pay you for that. Drinks is your decision too and not needed. Maybe water etc is but not alchohol.

[Guest Scott 5FD]

i think bands should get paid for playing gigs BUT only after they've proved themselves worthy of payment. if Five Finger Discount were to gig tonight, i wouldn't expect to get paid for it coz chances are we'd be first on the bill, not much people would be around to see us and the people that were their would be more interested in the band that was headlining. after we played a few shows and got our name around, then it would be nice to be paid to play music, but to me the main thing is getting up on stage and having a good time. the money would be a bonus to me and i'd just put it straight back into the band. i know the rest of the guys feel the same.

sorry if that post is irrelvant.

[Guest Bob]

Originally posted by Scott 5FD:

i think bands should get paid for playing gigs BUT only after they've proved themselves worthy of payment. if Five Finger Discount were to gig tonight, i wouldn't expect to get paid for it coz chances are we'd be first on the bill, not much people would be around to see us and the people that were their would be more interested in the band that was headlining. after we played a few shows and got our name around, then it would be nice to be paid to play music, but to me the main thing is getting up on stage and having a good time. the money would be a bonus to me and i'd just put it straight back into the band. i know the rest of the guys feel the same.

The only problem with your post is this. I want Point of Origin to gig in Dundee, Glasgow, Edingburgh and further afield. Would we have to prove ourselves in each of these cities with a few free shows before we'd earned the right to be paid?

It's not really practical at all is it?

[Guest Scott 5FD]

yeh, but your playing out of town shows, so you should get money to cover your costs.

i was speaking about local shows.

i shoulda made that clear.

[less_than_stu]

Hm... I see both sides of this thread.

On one hand, you're in a band, entertaining people (hopefully), essentially working, and probbaly putting money into it. You're also earning the promoter money (in theory). Of course you should get paid. Doesn't have to be a lot. My band often get 12.50 for a gig, between 4 of us, which will buy us each a beer. Sometimes, of course, we get paid more than that, which is nice.

Sometimes, we get paid nothing. That's fine too, as long as the promoter is supplying amps for us and stuff, and has checked that we're ok to do it for free beforehand, etc. Often, we're asked to do a gig for free because, even though, we should be getting paid, and there is a crowd, one of the bands really needs petrol for the drive home to Dundee. I think it's great that bands will sacrifice their pay in favour of another band's needs.

Also, when a band are just starting out, they're not gonna bring in a crowd, so aren't really 'earning' the promoter any money. At this early stage in a band's career, they are really after exposure, and nothing else. Really, the promoter is doing the band a favour, so there should be no question of getting paid.

It's a tricky subject, but I think Aberdeen is ok with it. Sometimes you get paid, sometimes you don't

[JJ 10 Easy Wishes]

PUNX 4eVA! Fuck the money doodz, i do it becoz i luv being punx. u hav the adrenaline onstage and thats what gets u threw a day wen u play to 2 persons every nite! PUNX!

[palmer_eldritch]

aslong as we're performing our music its attracting people to their venue and thus they're getting more money from alchahol sales. Why shouldn't we then be paid then? Normally the pay is as small that i'm never motivated to play for the money, but it does'nt bother me at all. i do think its certainly not unfair for bands to get paid and in most cases bands aren't getting paid enough anyway.

[bryn]

i dnt really spend that much pre gig maybe thats gona influence my view, but to be honest i would do gigs just the same if i wasnt gettin paid, the money is just a bonus to me. We got 40 one night (fuk nos why)

[palmer_eldritch]

Hey, we're playing with you, bryn, tonight, assuming your not the band who pulled out...

See you there

[Guest Ibid]

I find it incredible that bands after putting in so much work and heartbreak are being paid a measly 10 or nothing at all. These venues are raking in a fortune and getting what is basically free entertainment.

If I send a band or act to Aberdeen, I won't let them get out of bed for less than 200-and that's for a solo or a duo! Agents in Aberdeen frequently get their acts twice this and more depending on how popular the act is.

It's exploitation. Of course I'm talking pro acts here, but even young bands, playing part time and writing their own material should be getting half decent money. Frankly, I'm appalled.

[Charlotte]

For POO to play out of town, you're basically going to attract a hand-full of people to the gig, and therefore really can only command a small form payment to go towards travel expenses.

As for bands from Aberdeen, who play in Aberdeen, sure you would expect payment for your time but obviously you have no direct expenses so surely even 20 makes the gig worthwhile? Afterall, at the stage that the majority of bands in Aberdeen are at, you're giving up your time in order to gain experience, build a fanbase and get exposure.

Expenses like practise time, string etc are in no way related to the gig. You've decided to play in a band, and therefore you've accepted that you're going to have to pay these costs.

[Guest Tam o' Shantie]

this is what inspired bob's original post ---> http://www.undergroundscene.co.uk/upload/showthread.php?t=18600

[soundian]

Originally posted by Ibid:

I find it incredible that bands after putting in so much work and heartbreak are being paid a measly 10 or nothing at all. These venues are raking in a fortune and getting what is basically free entertainment.

If I send a band or act to Aberdeen, I won't let them get out of bed for less than 200-and that's for a solo or a duo! Agents in Aberdeen frequently get their acts twice this and more depending on how popular the act is.

It's exploitation. Of course I'm talking pro acts here, but even young bands, playing part time and writing their own material should be getting half decent money. Frankly, I'm appalled.

The venues I work in certainly don't rake in a fortune. Most venues who put on local bands doing their own stuff teeter on a knife edge financially. If bands got paid more, there would be no venues for them to play in. Once a band has proved their pulling power the money they can ask for goes up. That's how it works.

You must have this image of hundreds of screaming fans at every gig and the promoter sitting in the corner counting his loot. Believe me, it's completely different to that.

[Guest Bob]

Originally posted by Charlotte:

For POO to play out of town, you're basically going to attract a hand-full of people to the gig, and therefore really can only command a small form payment to go towards travel expenses.

As for bands from Aberdeen, who play in Aberdeen, sure you would expect payment for your time but obviously you have no direct expenses so surely even 20 makes the gig worthwhile? Afterall, at the stage that the majority of bands in Aberdeen are at, you're giving up your time in order to gain experience, build a fanbase and get exposure.

Expenses like practise time, string etc are in no way related to the gig. You've decided to play in a band, and therefore you've accepted that you're going to have to pay these costs.

Your first paragraph is pretty accurate, but after that...

Firstly, playing locally has expenses, albeit minor ones. ie. transport there and back, eating in town is more expensive etc. And you have to realise that a gig often takes up a WHOLE day, it's not just the time you're onstage.

20 isn't unusual and since you chose that figure lets go into some detail. I certainly wouldn't disupte that figure if that's what we got handed. I'M THANKFUL FOR WHAT WE GET!! But really, between 3/4/5 people to cover said expenses it really is *pish* money. If you wanted to split 20 4 ways you'd have a fiver each.

Now, imagine sound check is at 3pm. The gig doesn't finish till 11pm and then you have to get home!

5 divided by 8 hours. That makes your wages for the day to be 63p an hour (not including travel time).

Would you work at McDonalds for that? Just for the honour of wearing the uniform? Of course not, but people like us and other bands love playing music so we carry on. The idea that we shouldn't even get the 20 shocks me to my very core. We are after all, (hopefully) entertaining and contributing to a night out for people.

And just so you know, we wouldn't split the 20. We'd use it as "band money" and cover all the costs out of our own pockets.This "band money" then goes into making CDs and whatever. Our last EP never covered its own costs, but hopefully some people got some enjoyment out of it.

Another thing. We certainly don't play Aberdeen to "get exposure" as the phrase "what exposure?" springs to mind. What bands ever got exposure from playing this city? And being "famous" in aberdeen is like being famous in Auchterbluey. As in, where the fuck is Auchterbluey?

And to set you right on this, we do accept that there will be expenses involved with being in a band, but that doesn't mean we've got no right to try and recoup some of those expenses.

GIGS and MERCH are the only two things that can help us do so. So gigs are directly linked to those expenses.

All this said however, I'm quite happy with the deal we get at a local level, it's trying to gig outside this city that I find frustrating.

Cos that's when trying to get a fair deal seemingly becomes impossible. It certainly doesn't help when other bands are willing to play for nothing and cut your fucking throat.