AWPR petition (look!)

[pogofish]

It wouldn't surprise me if it would be more profitable up there' date=' once you consider the amount of EU money that's given to such areas.[/quote']

Another aspect of organic farming is locality. The idea that we should not be wasting vast amounts of energy trucking.shipping/flying produce half-way rounf the country/world to where it gets sold.

So from that POV, it would be better to have organic farms in close proximity to their market but in this case, I'd agree the bypass takes preceedence - I live on one of the proposed routes as well & would lose a something if it went ahead BTW.

Then again, there is a significant part of the organic faction who consider that even paying for produce is enough to destroy its organic status but they do tend to be the yhogurt-knitting variety!

[pogofish]

mmmkay. and isn't most of the kerfuffle about how the rich people's house prices will go down?? not all this farm stuff...

Yes. IMO, the whole farming/Steiner issue is just a bit of a smokescreen for those who live north of the Deeside road - I doubt they would get much sympathy if they protested on their own terms as many of themare the very people whose buisness interests over the last 30 years have contributed so much to the traffic problems we face today.

As long as I've known it, the council have dreaded going up against this lot as they have access to the legal skills & money to keep this whole thing in litigation for ages.

[crooked*smile]

The plans have been kicking around since at least 1952 & the Myrtle route was common knowledge when I grew-up near it in the 1970s & had been subject to planning/development restrictions along its corridor since at least the early 80s. Copies of the plan were in every public library & the planning office.

Exactly. The myrtle route was common knowledge. It seemed to be a given it was going that way. And then suddenly other routes became possibilities. Yes they were out there somewhere I'm sure but NOT easy to get hold of.

And just because people SHOULD check planning, doesnt mean that everyone will. The majority of people won't. And ok so it's no excuse that they didn't, but it wouldn't take much to warn people.

[lepeep]

And just because people SHOULD check planning' date=' doesnt mean that everyone will. The majority of people won't. And ok so it's no excuse that they didn't, [b']but it wouldn't take much to warn people.

aye, the bit where you simply say "hey, take action, or your house will be bulldozed"...that'd make me sit up. ho ho.

my biggest fear isn't the road itself, but the fact that green belt will be then "downgraded" to brown belt, and greedy mr Milne and his pals will just plant more of their mushroom houses all along the route...point in fact, kingswells is having 1500 new homes built, where are all these people coming from?!

check westhill, there are so many houses there now, that you are not even guaranteed a slot for your kids in the high school...how many schools have you seen milne build for every house he's sold for a heck of a profit?....

too many houses and no amenities = a dead "town".

[salsadecacahuete]

i didn't think kids went to school these days....

[pogofish]

my biggest fear isn't the road itself' date=' but the fact that green belt will be then "downgraded" to brown belt, .[/quote']

The green belt here as always been tinged with a bit of brown IME.

[pogofish]

And then suddenly other routes became possibilities. Yes they were out there somewhere I'm sure but NOT easy to get hold of.

From what I remember, there was little consideration given to any other route, except for the impractical, cheapo-option of beefing-up Anderson Drive. The Myrtle rote was the only one that reflected/complemented traditional traffic patterns in any effective way. The additional routes are merely recent innovations for consultation purposes & to give people the illusion of choice or a say in the matter.

[Chris]

how many schools have you seen milne build for every house he's sold for a heck of a profit?....

Not as many as he was supposed to anyway. I was informed by people who worked for Aberdeenshire council's planning department that he was supposed to build new primary schools and services in Stonehaven as part of his planning permission for the monstrous number of houses he built beside Mackie and just to the south of the town.

In the end he built the houses and fucked off.

[Hardcore Mel]

the problem with the new route is part of it's over solid rock that's just not financially feasible to dig up, meaning the road will at one point take a gradient so steep that a lot of HGVs simply won't use it. and it'll be absolutely useless in the snow.

plus it's gonna cost something like double what all the other routes were gonna cost. the fact that the new route wasn't even on the proposals when it came to choosing means this whole thing will be held up in expensive litigation for years.

[Scootray]

154 signatures so far. Wow. The Scottish Executive must be shitting itself. Especially since a hell of a lot of the signatures are duplicates from people in the same household.

[MattJimF]

Exactly. The myrtle route was common knowledge. It seemed to be a given it was going that way. And then suddenly other routes became possibilities. Yes they were out there somewhere I'm sure but NOT easy to get hold of.

And just because people SHOULD check planning' date=' doesnt mean that everyone will. The majority of people won't. And ok so it's no excuse that they didn't, but it wouldn't take much to warn people.[/quote']

I knew i had heard this all before.

[crooked*smile]

Hah I was going to quote Hitchhikers, but thought I'd hide my geeky side for a bit longer

[pogofish]

The Vogons - A true role model for planners everywhere!

Except that for many of the folk living along the route, it really is no excuse. Plenty of builders/building trade, architects, engineers etc - all folk who are well-versed in the arcane procedures of planning/building lore. Never mind a fair number of councillors & no small number of senior council officials.

[MattJimF]

The Vogons - A true role model for planners everywhere!

Except that for many of the folk living along the route' date=' it [b']really is no excuse. Plenty of builders/building trade, architects, engineers etc - all folk who are well-versed in the arcane procedures of planning/building lore. Never mind a fair number of councillors & no small number of senior council officials.

Copies of the plan were in every public library & the planning office.

At least they never had to endure what Arthur went through when his house was demolished.

[pogofish]

Sounds awfuly like the old Kincardineshire planning office in Stonehaven TBH!

Then they would tell you that whatever you wanted to see had been sent to Banchory!

[Cloud]

You don't have a clue mate. You don't just say one day "I'm gonna be an organic certified farmer!". It takes YEARS to gain organic certification. It's the LAND that is certified after years of strict management under very tight guidlines before organic status is granted. People have spent most of their lives building up their organic businesses' date=' and relocation is not a possibility. [/quote']

Boo fucking hoo. What's the difference between organic farming and normal farming? Why should we discrimate on those grounds? It's hardly fair to the other farmers if they're being told "oh, the bypass is going to swing into your land pointlessly because the organic farmer down the road has spent years building up his business". The bypass has to take the route that makes the most sense - not the route that panders to twats who don't have any other role to play apart from making sure that they benefit the most from the bypass (ie, not in my backyard, but a five minute drive down the road please).

As for the environmental impact, you don't think cutting huge swathes through the countryside and putting down dual carriageway constitutes pretty serious environmental impact? The proposed Stonehaven spur is what is causing the concern here as it is totally uneccesary.

I'm more concerned about Milne and friends building endless more cheap, horrible housing near the junctions of the bypass than I am about the bypass itself. It's not rocket science to know that a dual carriageway bypass is going to need to be upgraded to 3 lanes in each direction if houses line the route - and the chances of the road being future proofed to provide three lanes in the future are minimal. Therefore, the bypass should be built on condition that the land around stays in the Green Belt. Apart from that, how can you seriously claim that the bypass is going to have a detrimental effect when it should remove lorries from a lot of unsuitable city streets?

The Stonehaven spur is an excellent idea - it means traffic won't have to take the long way round to get onto the bypass, meaning less fuel used, meaning that it's better for the enviroment in the long run. It'll also ease a lot of the pressure on the Porthlethen bypass and gets rid of those dangerous bends between Newtonhill and Stonehaven. It also opens up the existing A90 corridor to more housing - which considering that new housing is in demand, it's no bad thing.

my neighbours have lived in their house for 40+ years' date=' there's no way they could have known when they bought it. And their house has lot a lot of value in that time cos of where it is, and it was gonna be totally flattened, and they were just gonna get the current value of the house which wasn't gonna be enough to buy them anything decent.[/quote']

They had to have known by the time the bypass proposals started to gain serious steam in the late 90's though, surely? I see pogofish has answered it in more detail, though.

mmmkay. and isn't most of the kerfuffle about how the rich people's house prices will go down?? not all this farm stuff...

Pretty much. It's the same with the Camphill situation - it's not so much about the enviromental/farming effects as the fact that money is going to be lost by a lot of influential and powerful people. Notice how in comparison' date=' there's been very little complaints from people on the northern leg of the bypass, despite the almost definite scarring of Kirkhill Forest? Why? Simple, there's no rich people there to kick up a huge fuss.

Yes. IMO, the whole farming/Steiner issue is just a bit of a smokescreen for those who live north of the Deeside road - I doubt they would get much sympathy if they protested on their own terms as many of themare the very people whose buisness interests over the last 30 years have contributed so much to the traffic problems we face today.

I pretty much wholeheartedly agree with this. It's a shame that Camphill has been manipulated by those people, but I guess they should've known better than to get involved with them in the first place.

Personally, if they want a tunnel, let them have it - but make it clear in a local referendum that those people will be paying for it through their council tax for the next fuck knows how many years. I suspect if they know they're going to have to pay 300 a year per house for 25 years to pay for a tunnel, suddenly that idea will vanish.

As long as I've known it' date=' the council have dreaded going up against this lot as they have access to the legal skills & money to keep this whole thing in litigation for ages.[/quote']

I suspect that part of the problem is that the administration is Lib Dem/Tory controlled, and I'd be inclined to think that the same people in those areas will vote either Lib Dem or Tory - and neither of those parties are going to want to risk anything before the next election as it could prove a critical election issue.

Exactly. The myrtle route was common knowledge. It seemed to be a given it was going that way. And then suddenly other routes became possibilities. Yes they were out there somewhere I'm sure but NOT easy to get hold of.

I would've had a lot more sympathy for them if they had protested from the start' date=' rather than suddenly coming out of the woodwork when it became obvious that Camphill wasn't going to get a bypass through the middle of it.

The laughable thing (to me) is that a lot of people in Milltimber are going to benefit hugely from the bypass - it's going to be pretty much halfway between Dyce and A90, so perfect for trips south and perfect for commuting to work.

my biggest fear isn't the road itself, but the fact that green belt will be then "downgraded" to brown belt, and greedy mr Milne and his pals will just plant more of their mushroom houses all along the route...point in fact, kingswells is having 1500 new homes built, where are all these people coming from?!

check westhill, there are so many houses there now, that you are not even guaranteed a slot for your kids in the high school...how many schools have you seen milne build for every house he's sold for a heck of a profit?....

Disgusts me too. I wish I knew why he's been allowed to build all these ugly houses that are completely out of character for the area that they're in - look at Kepplestone for instance, those houses/flats are completely vile and characterless and should never have been allowed anywhere near Queen's Road.

At least now I understand why the bypass won't be motorway, imagine the howls then?

[HeinzHines]

and gets rid of those dangerous bends between Newtonhill and Stonehaven.

I like to call them the only fun thing on a commute to Aberdeen.....

The bypass needs to be done, no question, but i think ripping up organic farms is a bad idea, im all for organic farming and protection needs to be in place.

Also im not happy that people could lose substantial amounts of money on their houses, a house is a lifetime investment and someone building a road shouldnt affect peoples quality of life, be that by decreasing finances through asset losses, regardless that most people that will suffer are maybe more wealthy than others and in a way able to cope with a loss, no one should ever be stripped of something they have paid for/invested in.

And in the end of the day, Stuart Milne is going to be my criminal of the bypass route, i fucking hate looking at his houses, they make me so sick....more shame on people who buy into standardised living.

[Cloud]

The bypass needs to be done' date=' no question, but i think ripping up organic farms is a bad idea, im all for organic farming and protection needs to be in place.[/quote']

At the expense of farmers who choose not to produce organic things? You simply can't discriminate in that way - after all, just because person A thinks it's great, you'll always have person B that realises that organic usually means higher prices and is therefore not in favour. At the end of the day, they're both businesses and deserve treated equally, no?

Also im not happy that people could lose substantial amounts of money on their houses, a house is a lifetime investment and someone building a road shouldnt affect peoples quality of life, be that by decreasing finances through asset losses, regardless that most people that will suffer are maybe more wealthy than others and in a way able to cope with a loss, no one should ever be stripped of something they have paid for/invested in.

That's why there's compensation for people who are affected in any real way. The consideration should be to delivering a bypass that helps the most amount of people while affecting the least amount of people - without consideration for the wanker who's house was stood to rise in value even more, only to find out that the bypass is now going past his front door.

Ultimately, the people of Milltimber/Cults/Culter have had it their own way for too long - I mean, why isn't there a park and ride facility somewhere there? Well...I can't imagine that the council would manage to get a big floodlit car park past them like they did in Kingswells.

And in the end of the day, Stuart Milne is going to be my criminal of the bypass route, i fucking hate looking at his houses, they make me so sick....more shame on people who buy into standardised living.

Totally agreed, I'd love to know just how much land he owns, waiting to be built on when the final decision is reached. I want to know what happened to him though - the old Stewart Milne houses in Westhill aren't too bad, okay, they're a bit shoddily constructed, but they're not *bad* unlike the new ones.

[HeinzHines]

At the expense of farmers who choose not to produce organic things? You simply can't discriminate in that way - after all' date=' just because person A thinks it's great, you'll always have person B that realises that organic usually means higher prices and is therefore not in favour. At the end of the day, they're both businesses and deserve treated equally, no?

[/quote']

Its an argument that i cant sway towards one party because it will seem discriminative towards the other....it may sound irrational, but if something 'HAS' to be ripped down i would rather see a 'normal' farm torn down than organic land, for reasons that have been said before, that even if a small proportion of their land is touched they could potentially be out of business completely, whereas a 'normal' farm would only be disrupted and that would be only slightly detremental to their output. And that organic foods are better for you! Which is a good enough reason to sway toward them!

I know you cant win, but it does seem fairer to be detremental towards a normal farm rather than an organicly certified one.

[pogofish]

I'm more concerned about Milne and friends building endless more cheap' date=' horrible housing near the junctions of the bypass than I am about the bypass itself. [/quote']

Another thing about the current route is that it will mean the lifting of planning restrictions on several swaithes of land that had previously been protected for the alternatives. One just south of Aberdeen, where Milne had a serious go at getting permission for a huge development in the mid-late 80's & another hard against Portlethen. I don't doubt that the old plans will resurface soon & am concerned that whatever the outcome for the road, he is going to have a bonanza anyway.

[Daniel]

It wouldn't surprise me if it would be more profitable up there' date=' once you consider the amount of EU money that's given to such areas. Obviously that means doing what's profitable rather than doing it because it's been in the family for years - but hey, it's the spirit of capitalism.

It might not be politically correct to say that people should move for the sake of progress, but it's the cold and simple truth. A few farmers (anyone got any links to show complaints by them, incidentally?) can't be allowed to hold back an entire region that will benefit from the AWPR, can they?

The thing is, they know the bypass is coming...instead of fighting it, might it not be best to prepare for the worst and have to move elsewhere as a result? I hear farming in France is very profitable...[/quote']

im a good freind of an organics farmer that is gonna be effected, they will lose the majority of their land to compulsory purchase.

re locatating to the highland isnt a clever suggestion as they would lose all their customers and have to start fresh.

[Cloud]

im a good freind of an organics farmer that is gonna be effected' date=' they will lose the majority of their land to compulsory purchase.

re locatating to the highland isnt a clever suggestion as they would lose all their customers and have to start fresh.[/quote']

How will they lose the majority of the land when the final route hasn't been decided? We know that the Milltimber Brae route is the preferred option with a link between there and Stonehaven, but we don't know the specifics.

Okay, so we're going to lose a few organic businesses. Boo hoo. I'm sure those businesses can use the money from compulsory purchase to go and start again elsewhere, so what's the big deal?

Question : Why should organic farming matter more than other forms of farming?

[Hardcore Mel]

you know how little people get from compulsary purchase? a lot of the time it barely covers their initial investment.

[lepeep]

Mel, Cloud knows everything, don't you read his posts?

[Stripey]

Question : Why should organic farming matter more than other forms of farming?

Organic farming is sustainable, natural and good for the land and wildlife in the long term because it isn't sterilised by pesticides and polluted with synthetic fertilisers..

Because produce is sold locally, it's fresher, better tasting, healthier, and there are no exhorbitant environmental impacts involved such as there are when supermarkets do absurd things like fly spring onions from mexico, or truck their crap all over the country.

You should also support local producers because it keeps money in the community, instead of supermarkets sucking it out.

There are loads of reasons why organic farming should be supported, and why it is far more important than intensive, polluting, wildlife damaging, landscape destroying mass scale agri-business.

As has been explained, you cannot simply relocate an organic business. Also, some of those affected will not be directly in the path of the proposed stonehaven spur, but right next to it, so they wont be offered compulsory purchase but would still have their business destroyed.