Christian Bands?

[HeinzHines]

Who would have thought a simple question like 'do you like christian bands' would bring out such a heated debate?!

This is so un christian of us, and near the birthday of our lord saviour, disgraceful.......

[Larsen B]

Ignoramous? I resent your language. Hey' date=' if you have not the skills to challenge my arguement and so have to resort to abuse, well, what can I say? It is my belief that the christian faith is indeed built on oppression and lies. Obedience is at its centre. To stray is a sin, and one that must be punished. No other belief should be considered.

And I said nothing of religious leaders. I've spoken only of the teachings themselves.[/quote']

To stray is a sin and one that must be repented. Depends what you mean by no other belief should be considered. Fundamental to christianity is tolerance and respect of other beliefs but not the idea that other beliefs are right where contrary to chrisitian beliefs. This is just a stupid criticism of christianity. You cannot have your christian belief if you also believe in another belief which contradicts it. It's like me criticising you for not sharing the beliefs of a far right person despite being far left. And abuse would be me spouting expletives in your direction for no reason, not calling you something your arguement proves you to be.

[Demon Of The Fall]

I hate when people talk about hatred between religions and but when a non-religious person says they hate a religion is usually okay. It is equally born out of ignorance. And Jesus was one of the coolest people ever' date=' the original rebel and he actually had a good cause.[/quote']

Jesus Christ (forgive the pun) why did I know you would have to make comment on that? Simply put, I dont agree! You have no right to make that comment (just as I have no right to tell you that your beliefs are bollocks) I dont like religion as I think it is nothing but destructive. End of

[Alkaline]

Well i thought i'd made headway with this guy, obviously not. I hoped he would see that the actions of the few can not be laid accountable to the many.

All i have to say on the matter is that i believe what i believe and i'm happy for anyone to believe whatever they want.

Remember this was a thread about christian imigary in modern music, not about taking pot shots at each others beliefs.

Take it easy

Phil

[SensesWorkingOverTime]

i think when DemonOfTheFall says he hates religion and it just causes destruction he is a victim of what he has read/seen on t.v which i can see where hes coming from. what people fail to realise is thats its only the EXTREMISTS/morons that use religion as a reason for conflict.

centre to the Christian faith, and many others, is tolerance - i refuse to believe this clashes so intently with the views of punx

allsystemfails claims that religion has no place in the punk/hardcore community because it demands obediance, yet, because you are imposing these sanctions on christianity, it shows that there are also rules on the punk/hardcore community. you are imposing these rules. therefore you are demanding obediance. why should someone conform to your punk ideals??

i probably havent explained it well, but if you are placing restrictions on gaining access to the punk community, then that makes it sound as if there are certain rules that you obey, and to me that seems more than slightly hypocritical

[Demon Of The Fall]

i think when DemonOfTheFall says he hates religion and it just causes destruction he is a victim of what he has read/seen on t.v which i can see where hes coming from. what people fail to realise is thats its only the EXTREMISTS/morons that use religion as a reason for conflict.

centre to the Christian faith' date=' and many others, is tolerance - i refuse to believe this clashes so intently with the views of punx

allsystemfails claims that religion has no place in the punk/hardcore community because it demands obediance, yet, because you are imposing these sanctions on christianity, it shows that there are also rules on the punk/hardcore community. you are imposing these rules. therefore you are demanding obediance. why should someone conform to your punk ideals??

i probably havent explained it well, but if you are placing restrictions on gaining access to the punk community, then that makes it sound as if there are certain rules that you obey, and to me that seems more than slightly hypocritical[/quote']

You dont know me, and I dont have a clue who you are. Please dont assume what my opinions are based on.

And for the recordyou are wrong. I cant be arsed with this anymore

Argue away!

[SensesWorkingOverTime]

i was merely assuming because its an obvious assumption,(edit) geniunley sorry if its wrong

i just dont understand how you can hate everyday religion. i mean, i know its easy to hate the preachin side, but hating the values of it? i would have thought anyone who wasnt a bad person would have thought it was commendable

[Demon Of The Fall]

i was merely assuming because its an obvious assumption

i just dont understand how you can hate everyday religion. i mean' date=' i know its easy to hate the preachin side, but hating the values of it? i would have thought anyone who wasnt a bad person would have thought it was commendable[/quote']

I never said anything about hating anything. I dont like region because I know too many people who have the attitude I cant do that, its a sin.Ill go to hell when these people dont understand that restricting what the want/can do is infact a living hell in itself. There are many MANY reasons for my views and it only gets stronger year after year. Fact is, im not going to discuss all my views on a music discussion board.

Cheers

[SensesWorkingOverTime]

I never said anything about hating anything. I dont like region because I know too many people who have the attitude I cant do that' date=' its a sin.Ill go to hell when these people dont understand that restricting what the want/can do is infact a living hell in itself. There are many MANY reasons for my views and it only gets stronger year after year. Fact is, im not going to discuss all my views on a music discussion board.

Cheers[/quote']

fair enough, i was responding to the "all religion is is destructive".

sorry

x

[Doc]

Before you take a swipe at me' date=' I suggest firstly that you do some serious reading regarding my politics. Your point regarding my adherence to the law is complete nonsense, with no depth of understanding of what I'd actually said. Why should I wish to inflict physical harm? Why should I steal? Anarchism is not the law of the jungle as you believe - a thing which by the way I have corrected you on more than one occasion yet you have chosen to ignore. I seek freedom, and so respect others. I do not respect the law. I do not follow it blindly. Laws are made primarily to protect the interests of the established order. They are an instrument of control.

I agree, many christians are indeed good people. This however does not invalidate the main thrust of the arguement I've made - that is that the christian faith DOES demand obedience to a higher authority. And no, I did not compare those who are involved in charitable causes, who do good work, with the religious zealots found across the pond. I said nothing of the sort, so I shall ask you not to put words in to my mouth.[/quote']

Forgive me, but you said," I reject authority". Which means you reject any attempt to control your actions, for example by laws, made incidentally to protect people from harm by for instance drunken drivers. (How can you say the law against drunken drivers is to protect those in power?? That is stupid, isn't it? That law is to protect my daughter from being mown down by one.) You should have said, "I resent authority". So you then pick and choose which laws you obey and which ones you ignore?

Let us return to the drink drive law. Suppose a guy like you who chooses in his arrogance to ignore this particular law then drinks and drives, then mows down my daughter and kills her. Should he not be punished for his crime because he is an anarchist? My instinct as a father would be to hunt down this fuck and burn him alive, but the law prevents me from the act of vengeance. (And rightly so) Should I choose to ignore this law and behave worse than the drink driver?

I did not say YOU compared baptists to US zealots, I merely pointed out that those who did so were stupid in the extreme. In consulting my wife, she confirms that her faith does not require obedience to a higher authority and as she is a practising christian and a greater authority than you on the subject, I think we can lay to rest that particular misconception. In the past perhaps it was used as an instrument of social control and I think the catholics may still labour under this out dated misconception-the muslims certainly do.

[rune]

i dont understand you

i always thought the punk community (if there really is such a thing these days) was an INCLUSIVE community

to say that just because a person practises a faith they have no place in the punk/hardcore community is utterly stupid. Alkaline is right' date=' faith is a personal thing, you can believe in everything the bible says straight up as fact or you can take the bits out you like and live by those. who the hell are you to say that the sense of god that religious people get out of their faith is wrong??

[/quote']

Utter crap, it's mass corrupt, this is a world wide problem due to the fact that these religious tripe fuckers in usa voted that nazi fucker back in, Love and religion hahaaaaaa what a fucking joke, that joke will cost us more innocent lives lost, terrorism going to an all time high. To put it short religion has put everyone's life at risk. That is where it stops being a personal issue and now becomes a far bigger problem

Fuck religion it corrupts all

[Alkaline]

Utter crap' date=' it's mass corrupt, this is a world wide problem due to the fact that these religious tripe fuckers in usa voted that nazi fucker back in, Love and religion hahaaaaaa what a fucking joke, that joke will cost us more innocent lives lost, terrorism going to an all time high. To put it short religion has put everyone's life at risk. That is where it stops being a personal issue and now becomes a far bigger problem

Fuck religion it corrupts all[/quote']

Dude, drop it.

[Larsen B]

Religion does not corrupt anything or anybody. It is people (like George Bush and extremists) who corrupt religion and turn on it's head and misapply it and hatred and war and suffering out of it. This sort of thing does not make the beliefs of the ordinary practicing christian or practicing person of any faith invalid. And Ross how can you possibly say that religion is nothing but destructive?!? The many christian charitable organisations who feed and cloth the poor and needy cos their religion teaches them to do so are purely destructive in their deeds are they??? Buddhists who refuse to commit acts of violence are acting in a purely destructive manner are they??? I hope once you read this you swallow your pride and submit that what you said was incomprehensibley stupid and ignorant. And don't go and say that i have no right to make such a comment. What you said about religion being purely destructive was loud and clear and made public. And don't tell me that these many people you know are always wrong in not doing something because it's a sin and they'll go to hell (which any good christian knows is not the proper reason for not doing something (the proper reason that it will make the world a less pleasant place for everyone (quite a utilitarian attitude really))). An example would be that i as a Catholic would refuse to murder an innocent person on the basis that my religion teaches me that i have no right to deprive any human being of their life and it would create great suffering and grief to those who remain alive. Surely life would be much more like hell if i did commit such an act. And again is this christian moral purely destructive?

[SensesWorkingOverTime]

last point that J.Jazz said:

religion does not corrupt, people corrupt religion

[friendlybikerdude]

I disagree with Christian "metal" bands' date=' as they are almost trying to use "the devils music" to subvert children with their own message...

It's pretty much "double standards" for me.

Stryper, POD and all those bollox, if they have a message, and need to "hijack" a way of "getting it to the kids", I think that's wrong (especially if they say that "rock music is the devils work (but not if they are singing about god etc)...

It's the same as the old Christian Skate Park, yeah, lure the kids in with sk8ing, but once you've got em, come, listen to my sermon, have this bible...

fuck off, sell that shit with your "own merits", not on false pretenses.[/quote']

Hmm, it's called EVANGELISING......

Is that sooo bad? They're not trying to get members of some sorta cult, proper christians actually are motivated by love and a real concern to see people saved, you can't hate someone for being like that......

Folk jump on the whole anti-christianity badwagon so much.. tsk....

As for christain metal, there were a few decent thrash bands from the 80s and early 90s, Deliverance and Vengeance as examples.....

[Hog]

Heres what I think-

I hate racism

I hate homophobia

I hate discrimination of any kind. Especially of the disabled.

I do have one problem (and might get slayed for this). I believe that Catholics trying to stop safe sex is a joke. Please explain this to the HIV positive Africans who are dying because if this.

I am spiritual although I wouldnt go as far as saying Im Christian. Treat people as you expect to be treated.

Music, well, if my religion is ace why force it on others?

[Guest allsystemsfail]

Forgive me' date=' but you said," I reject authority". Which means you reject any attempt to control your actions, for example by laws, made incidentally to protect people from harm by for instance drunken drivers. (How can you say the law against drunken drivers is to protect those in power?? That is stupid, isn't it? That law is to protect my daughter from being mown down by one.) You should have said, "I resent authority". So you then pick and choose which laws you obey and which ones you ignore?

Let us return to the drink drive law. Suppose a guy like you who chooses in his arrogance to ignore this particular law then drinks and drives, then mows down my daughter and kills her. Should he not be punished for his crime because he is an anarchist? My instinct as a father would be to hunt down this fuck and burn him alive, but the law prevents me from the act of vengeance. (And rightly so) Should I choose to ignore this law and behave worse than the drink driver?

[/quote']

I shall ask you again, that until you have some level of knowledge or experience of anarchist politics, say nothing. Coz hey, you're just gonna look stupid.

Yes, I reject authority. I reject its use as the proper means to run a society. We need not government, bosses. Fuck em. And so you've misunderstood what I said. Do you see a pattern beginning to develop here?

While rejecting the use of law - its PRIMARY function to serve and protect the interests of the ruling class, anarchists will not stand idly by while others seek to disrupt or cause harm to the community or those living in it. Drunken driving may be one example. Behaviour believed harmful will not be tolerated and shall be dealt with, though not with the use of law. Again you confuse anarchist thought with chaos.

[Guest allsystemsfail]

To stray is a sin and one that must be repented. Depends what you mean by no other belief should be considered. Fundamental to christianity is tolerance and respect of other beliefs but not the idea that other beliefs are right where contrary to chrisitian beliefs. This is just a stupid criticism of christianity. You cannot have your christian belief if you also believe in another belief which contradicts it. It's like me criticising you for not sharing the beliefs of a far right person despite being far left. And abuse would be me spouting expletives in your direction for no reason' date=' not calling you something your arguement proves you to be.[/quote']

To sin, one must have laws, and an expectation that these laws will be obeyed. Point made I think.

Tolerance? What of tolerance of homosexuality?

Also, you cannot compare the use of christianity - it's disappoval of other belief systems thought contrary to its teachings and writings, with my objection to those who seek to oppress and exploit. Such an arguement is nonsense.

And returning to your remark about politicians - I wish no truck with them. I have no interest in any political forms based on authority, on control. And so that particular arguement you had made bout corruption is meaningless. It does not apply.

And regarding your use of language - you made not a statement of fact but said only what you believed. And yes, it was indeed uncalled for.

[Stripey]

http://www.chick.com/catalog/tractlist.asp

[Larsen B]

To sin' date=' one must have laws, and an expectation that these laws will be obeyed. Point made I think.

Tolerance? What of tolerance of homosexuality?

Also, you cannot compare the use of christianity - it's disappoval of other belief systems thought contrary to its teachings and writings, with my objection to those who seek to oppress and exploit. Such an arguement is nonsense.

And returning to your remark about politicians - I wish no truck with them. I have no interest in any political forms based on authority, on control. And so that particular arguement you had made bout corruption is meaningless. It does not apply.

And regarding your use of language - you made not a statement of fact but said only what you believed. And yes, it was indeed uncalled for.[/quote']

No you made no point at all or at least not a relevant one. You said that if you sin you will be punished. Not true you will merely be expected to genuinely repent. My argument comparing christianity disapproval of other belief systems is not nonsense it was not specifically about your beliefs and rejection of right wing beliefs. I could easily have made it the other way around. My point is simple: it is ridiculous to criticise someone for having one set of beliefs and not sharing another set of beliefs which contradict them. And regardless of whether you believe in a political system based on authority or not, the political ideologies you have come from theorists who themselves cannot be trusted to not be corrupt any more than the founders of different religions can be. Political theorists just tried to outdo each other. Unless you invented your anarchist/leftist ideology.

[Doc]

I shall ask you again' date=' that until you have some level of knowledge or experience of anarchist politics, say nothing. Coz hey, you're just gonna look stupid.

Yes, I reject authority. I reject its use as the proper means to run a society. We need not government, bosses. Fuck em. And so you've misunderstood what I said. Do you see a pattern beginning to develop here?

While rejecting the use of law - its PRIMARY function to serve and protect the interests of the ruling class, anarchists will not stand idly by while others seek to disrupt or cause harm to the community or those living in it. Drunken driving may be one example. Behaviour believed harmful will not be tolerated and shall be dealt with, though not with the use of law. Again you confuse anarchist thought with chaos.[/quote']

Actually, I read with great interest the site you gave me the link for so I do see where you are coming from. I came to the conclusion that an anarchist society, like all extreme left wing societies is wonderful in theory but unworkable in practice. Why? They do not reward effort, intellect or prowess. Why should a young person go through all the effort of university and training to become a surgeon for example, if he will not be adequately rewarded for his skill and effort? Assuming your anarchist state manages to fund a uni in the first place.

Anarchist theory is fine in principle, but if applied can lead to nothing but chaos. This is the conclusion I reached after studying your site and thinking through the consequences, knowing what I know about human nature. It is my opinion and as valid as yours. What you cannot stand is that I dare to disagree with you.

[Guest allsystemsfail]

Actually' date=' I read with great interest the site you gave me the link for so I do see where you are coming from. I came to the conclusion that an anarchist society, like all extreme left wing societies is wonderful in theory but unworkable in practice. Why? They do not reward effort, intellect or prowess. Why should a young person go through all the effort of university and training to become a surgeon for example, if he will not be adequately rewarded for his skill and effort? Assuming your anarchist state manages to fund a uni in the first place.

Anarchist theory is fine in principle, but if applied can lead to nothing but chaos. This is the conclusion I reached after studying your site and thinking through the consequences, knowing what I know about human nature. It is my opinion and as valid as yours. What you cannot stand is that I dare to disagree with you.[/quote']

Extreme left wing? Anarchism is not a leftist variant, but something quite different.

I have to say that I find your point regarding the application of anarchy unworkable quite amusing. It appears you have an extremely short memory. Do you not recall our discussion regarding Orwell's Homage To Catalonia - a book I cited as proof that anarchism can indeed work. And yes, you agreed. Really, think before you speak.

Regarding motivation, reward - it is important that if people are to see the benefits of anarchism, that they contribute fully. It is to their benefit to do so. That is their reward.

And anarchist STATE? lol

Education? Essential services such as education, transport, health etc exist not because of government, but in spite of it. They function because of the good work of ordinary working men and women.

[Stripey]

Orwell's Homage To Catalonia - a book I cited as proof that anarchism can indeed work.

I presume you have read Animal Farm aswell then...

[Doc]

Extreme left wing? Anarchism is not a leftist variant' date=' but something quite different.

I have to say that I find your point regarding the application of anarchy unworkable quite amusing. It appears you have an extremely short memory. Do you not recall our discussion regarding Orwell's Homage To Catalonia - a book I cited as proof that anarchism can indeed work. And yes, you agreed. Really, think before you speak.

Regarding motivation, reward - it is important that if people are to see the benefits of anarchism, that they contribute fully. It is to their benefit to do so. That is their reward.

And anarchist STATE? lol

Education? Essential services such as education, transport, health etc exist not because of government, but in spite of it. They function because of the good work of ordinary working men and women.[/quote']

I see you now resort to pendantry, the refuge when arguement fails. Yes I do recall Homage to Catalonia, and yes for a time it enjoyed anarchy, but where is it now?

All sophisticated civilised societies inevitably end up with some form of government. As you yourself stated, wrong doers will be dealt with. How would this be done? By some kind of tribunual perhaps? Once you begin to regulate the way people behave, you are a governent. Once you provide any kind of service you are a government.

Anarchy is a pipe dream and if you were capable of deep and logical thinking you would see this.

[Guest allsystemsfail]

No you made no point at all or at least not a relevant one. You said that if you sin you will be punished. Not true you will merely be expected to genuinely repent. My argument comparing christianity disapproval of other belief systems is not nonsense it was not specifically about your beliefs and rejection of right wing beliefs. I could easily have made it the other way around. My point is simple: it is ridiculous to criticise someone for having one set of beliefs and not sharing another set of beliefs which contradict them. And regardless of whether you believe in a political system based on authority or not' date=' the political ideologies you have come from theorists who themselves cannot be trusted to not be corrupt any more than the founders of different religions can be. Political theorists just tried to outdo each other. Unless you invented your anarchist/leftist ideology.[/quote']

My point was indeed relevant, relating to my original point that christianity should have no place in the punk community - that its laws conflict with those beliefs important to the punk underground.

The fathers of anarchism should not be trusted? Why? Any wish to control, to corrupt, would rather contradict their politics would it not? You cannot compare the writings of say Bakunin with Lenin or Mao.