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The religion debate thread


ZeromiserY

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Would people be more likely to believe in God if we found out it/he wasn't sentient?

Imagine God as some kind of Universe creating machine, kind of like a photocopier spewing out universes because that's all it can do.

Create Universe, Uncreate Universe, Create Universe, Uncreate Universe.

If only science could prove God was a non-sentient creation machine I think people would have no need to 'worship' it/him.

.... after all, you don't worship your photocopier.

In my experience, photocopiers move in mysterious ways, require a certified cleric to invoke them, unconditional faith to operate, and most certainly inspire fear in the common man so it works on all levels.

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His draconian views regarding condoms beggars belief.

Condoms are pretty rubbish, though.

On a serious note, and not defending his stance because it's awful, but is that not the position taken by the religion rather than him as a person? I understand that he's best placed to alter it, but I imagine even if he did want to change things he'd be under an intense amount of pressure from everywhere and everyone.

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Condoms are pretty rubbish, though.

On a serious note, and not defending his stance because it's awful, but is that not the position taken by the religion rather than him as a person? I understand that he's best placed to alter it, but I imagine even if he did want to change things he'd be under an intense amount of pressure from everywhere and everyone.

He could try starting by not sending missionaries to third world countries and convincing them that condoms will actively spread AIDs.

That'd be a nice start...

xx

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It would indeed. How do they get off with stuff like that? An actual lie? (Just like 'there is a God' lol)

The protection religion is given when it makes these stupid claims is shocking. If I believed that the moon was made of cheese, you'd have every right to make fun of me. Why is it intolerant to make fun of someone thinking the invisible man will answer their prayers if they believe he will....?

/rant

xx

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There are aspects of religion which are hugely positive:

Moderate religion encourages people to consider their actions and pertain towards a moral life. Perhaps the reason that Zeromisery enjoys speaking with Jehova Witnesses is because they represent an arena in which ethical issues can be discussed, an arena sometimes lacking in secular life (or perhaps hidden behind ivory towers).

I think KarmaTsunami may have touched upon something similar in saying that she 'could' find something - something meaningful - in religion. Where in modern life would a deepness of meaning comparable to that expressed in the bible be found? In money? Television? A new car?

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There are aspects of religion which are hugely positive:

Moderate religion encourages people to consider their actions and pertain towards a moral life. Perhaps the reason that Zeromisery enjoys speaking with Jehova Witnesses is because they represent an arena in which ethical issues can be discussed, an arena sometimes lacking in secular life (or perhaps hidden behind ivory towers).

I enjoyed talking to them in the way I enjoy telling my girlfriends 5 year old that cows say woof and dogs say moo and watching him trying to figure out what the fuck is going on

And, like I told the JW's, I don't need a book or an intergalactic father figure with threats if unending torment to want to lead a good life.

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Nice that you invited them into your home and gave them the respect all humans deserve.

Personally I think all humans deserve the respect of not having someone knocking on their door trying to sell them something, be it double-glazing, a new kitchen, or another way to hate people who think a little bit different to you.

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We could go down the route of saying just how much respect do "all humans deserve" too I suppose.

I mean, did Saddam Hussein deserve the same respect as Ghandi?

I'm not saying that JW's are saddam's or ghandi's. Just asking who set's th benchmark of this "global respect"?

I'm sorry that my remark came across as overly pious. I had the idea that you had been finding some value speaking with these people. I also intended to link this notion with a broader idea that believers are often more attuned to ethical issues / general debate than the average non-believer. I too have had really good conversations with believers, who frequently have more developed and considered opinions on a range of subjects than many non-believers. This doesn't account for the substance of their arguments, merely that they possess a stance.

The point you make, 'who sets the benchmark for global respect' is really apt and I think that believers have a greater infrastructure upon which to base moral choices or life decisions. They have leaders to teach them and fellow believers to consult. Their holy books contain moral guidance and valuable life support. Their traditions and ceremonies seem to contain a real reverence and respect for life itself. Where do non-believers obtain a similar service? At what point are non-believers encouraged to think deeply about life? There are few places more suited to contemplation than a church.

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I wasn't sure if your previous comment was intended sarcastically or not, it can be hard to tell in text since there is no tone behind it.

By "infrastructure upon which to base their moral choices" it comes back to fear again. You know the old saying "I'm just a god fearing person...", have you ever though about exactly what that means?

As for respect and ceremonies, have you ever heard of disfellowship or ex-communication? If you happen to be gay, smoke, get drunk,gamble or have a blood transfusion (even if you're in an accident and are unconscious) this is grounds for disfellowship. Most of these things aren't even mentioned in the watchtower. What kind of respect is that for a person? When they make a choice to smoke and are cast out? Imagine how harmful that could be for a person who still believes the watchtower doctrine, with disfellowship comes condemnation to everlasting destruction.

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I wasn't sure if your previous comment was intended sarcastically or not, it can be hard to tell in text since there is no tone behind it.

By "infrastructure upon which to base their moral choices" it comes back to fear again. You know the old saying "I'm just a god fearing person...", have you ever though about exactly what that means?

As for respect and ceremonies, have you ever heard of disfellowship or ex-communication? If you happen to be gay, smoke, get drunk,gamble or have a blood transfusion (even if you're in an accident and are unconscious) this is grounds for disfellowship. Most of these things aren't even mentioned in the watchtower. What kind of respect is that for a person? When they make a choice to smoke and are cast out? Imagine how harmful that could be for a person who still believes the watchtower doctrine, with disfellowship comes condemnation to everlasting destruction.

With ceremonies I was really referring to things like funerals, weddings, baptisms and christmas.

By 'infrastructure...' I mean that religions have the apparatus upon which to reflect upon life in a deep and comprehensive fashion. Secular life perhaps lacks something comparable.

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