The religion debate thread

[ZeromiserY]

I've just been reading over some of the booklets the JW's left me before they arrive. I like this opening line in one of them:

"a new group of athiests has arisen in society. Called the new athiests, they are not content to keep their views to themselves. Rather, they are on a crusade 'actively, angrily, passionately trying to persuade the religious to their point of view".

What exactly were they doing at my door last week?

[Le Stu]

The Watchtower is probably the least coherent of rambling religious brochures to be had.

(that's a good one, call it a brochure or mention The Watchtower and Tract society, if they deny all knowledge get them to read you the copyright.)

PS good luck with your initiation, they do apparently have some amazingly fit birds and it's a man's world

[ZeromiserY]

The Watchtower is probably the least coherent of rambling religious brochures to be had.

(that's a good one, call it a brochure or mention The Watchtower and Tract society, if they deny all knowledge get them to read you the copyright.)

PS good luck with your initiation, they do apparently have some amazingly fit birds and it's a man's world

They only left me with "AWAKE!" (which is pretty rambling)

I don't think we'll be getting as far as an initiation but I got a chuckle out of that. I hope they don't arrive anytime soon. Still trying to shift a cold and u really can't be done with it today.

They don't believe in divorce right? If I tell them I'm divorced would that be enough to put them off?

[Le Stu]

They only left me with "AWAKE!" (which is pretty rambling)

I don't think we'll be getting as far as an initiation but I got a chuckle out of that. I hope they don't arrive anytime soon. Still trying to shift a cold and u really can't be done with it today.

They don't believe in divorce right? If I tell them I'm divorced would that be enough to put them off?

I don't know actually. Probably telling them you're a heamophiliac or an army reserve would work better. they apparently frown on blood transfusions or military service.

This is why I never fuck with them because they seem to have a sixth sense for catching me in a weak moment.

(you could just hide behind the sofa when they call)

[ZeromiserY]

I don't know actually. Probably telling them you're a heamophiliac or an army reserve would work better. they apparently frown on blood transfusions or military service.

This is why I never fuck with them because they seem to have a sixth sense for catching me in a weak moment.

(you could just hide behind the sofa when they call)

I think being gay is a big no-no for the witnesses right?

Or even co-habiting with my girlfriend beige marriage should do the trick.

[Le Stu]

I think being gay is a big no-no for the witnesses right?

Or even co-habiting with my girlfriend beige marriage should do the trick.

Chances are they'll try to cure you, see you as a challenge. A high risk strategy, imo.

[ZeromiserY]

They still haven't turned up so I've decided just to go out for lunch instead.

If they keep hassling me I'll have no reservations about telling them where to go. They've been perfectly nice so far though and I think if I tell them I'm just not interested they'll be accepting of that. You can request to be put on a no call list.

[Hog]

Also known as the "sportsman's double".

One of my pal's managed that achievement, although not at the same time.

He said that the Mum was better in the sack. More experience etc etc..

[ZeromiserY]

One of my pal's managed that achievement, although not at the same time.

He said that the Mum was better in the sack. More experience etc etc..

*achievement unlocked - shagged a jehovas witness and her ma' - 50G"

.....discuss

actually, there is no room for discussion:

This is a very sensitive subject...

Just the two of us [repeat 2x]

yeahhhhhh ahum ahum

[verse 1]

From the moment I heard Frau

Said I had a clone

I knew that I'd be safe

Cuz I'd never be alone

An evil Dr. shoudln't speak aloud bout his feelings

My hurt and my pain don't make me too appealing

I'd hope Scott

Would look up to me,

Run the buisness of the family

Head an evil empire,

Just like his dear old dad

Give him my love and the things he never had

Scott would think

I was a cool guy

returned the love I have

make me wanna cry

Be evil, but had my feelings too

Chaged my life with Opra and Mya Angelou

But Scott rejected me

C'est La Ve

Life is cruel, treat you unfairly

Even so, a God there must be

Mini-me, you complete me.

Just the two of us [repeat 10x]

Uh-huh

Yeah

Just me and you

Gettin jiggy with it

Yeah, ahum

Quite pleasent really

YOU AND I

Daddy loves you

Daddy loves you

you and I

-

"my friend laughed so hard at religion that he died"

"thats going in":

[KarmaTsunami]

If you're interested in reading more about the idea of a 'Grand Architect' behind the universe and debates surrounding it you can go to one of the sources; William Paley - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'm agnostic.

[Teabags]

Best religion ivver.

[ZeromiserY]

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

The female news reporter seems to misunderstand the point of the replacement sign.

[Shaki]

For me there is two distinct arguments to be had and if you are that way inclined a million different sub-arguments within them.

a) The existence of God

b) Following a specific religion

A summary of my opinion on each:

a) As someone suggested earlier referencing Stephen Hawking - The universe exists as do the laws of science within it. Perhaps God created all this c. 13 billion years ago but I cant see that hes done much since. Im happy to accept that all I am is probably within my physical matter and that when I die I no longer exist.

b) A ludicrous thing for any intelligent, rational human being in modern times to do. Unfortunately this comes with the ultimate top trump faith beats reason (or at least ends rational debate)

Someone made the point that atheists are ramming their beliefs down peoples throats more than the religious now. I dont mind this as long as nobody is being killed. 2000 years of this may redress the balance. Another point that Dawkins makes in The God Delusion is that some people may now be a little embarrassed to talk about their religious beliefs because they know it would open them up to questions (or ridicule) that they would be unable to counter.

I'd recommend The God Delusion to anyone mildly interested in the subject. It is easy to read and is well structured.

[ZeromiserY]

I'd recommend The God Delusion to anyone mildly interested in the subject. It is easy to read and is well structured.

Reading it through for the second time now, it really is an excellent book.

The athiests guide to Christmas is good too. Concentrates more on being funny but still raises good points.

[Stroopy121]

Reading it through for the second time now, it really is an excellent book.

The athiests guide to Christmas is good too. Concentrates more on being funny but still raises good points.

Any of you guys read God is Not Great?

I loved God Delusion but just can't get into this one for some reason and I can't put my finger on why....

xx

[Shaki]

Any of you guys read God is Not Great?

I loved God Delusion but just can't get into this one for some reason and I can't put my finger on why....

xx

Perhaps the will of God is stopping you.

[Skacel]

I'm agnostic.

I would have to say that I am too. I like reading the different scientific theories but I wouldn't put myself 100% in the atheist camp.

Plus it dawned on me last night that every now and then I pray to God. ?(

Anyway, thinking about this stuff too much can drive a person mad.

[ZeromiserY]

Any of you guys read God is Not Great?

I loved God Delusion but just can't get into this one for some reason and I can't put my finger on why....

xx

I have 40 of waterstones vouchers that are destined for the popular science section. There's a few I've been meaning to pick up.

[KarmaTsunami]

I would have to say that I am too. I like reading the different scientific theories but I wouldn't put myself 100% in the atheist camp.

Plus it dawned on me last night that every now and then I pray to God. ?(

Anyway, thinking about this stuff too much can drive a person mad.

I just like reading things that make me go 'hrm'. It's not that I'm too easily swayed from one camp to the other, or particularly enjoy sitting on the fence which is an accusation made of those who say they're agnostic. It's more that I like the idea of discovering as I go through life, so why settle on any one thing at the moment? If, say, I'm on a trip to Asia and I discover that Buddhism or Hiduism is the way for me then fine, it could even be that one day I'll find something in a Judeo-Christian religion that makes sense or I might just come to the conclusion that it's all a load of nonsense. However, I see no reason to pin any particular label on my soul if such a beast exists. I have felt profound peace of mind in the prayer room of a monestary and in a quiet spot in a forest in the Pacific Northwest. This is making me sound like an enormous hippy, so I'll just say that as long as you find peace somewhere regardless of whether it's a church, synagogue, mosque or temple that's cool with me as long as you live and let live.

/endhippymonologue.

[Shaki]

I just like reading things that make me go 'hrm'. It's not that I'm too easily swayed from one camp to the other, or particularly enjoy sitting on the fence which is an accusation made of those who say they're agnostic. It's more that I like the idea of discovering as I go through life, so why settle on any one thing at the moment? If, say, I'm on a trip to Asia and I discover that Buddhism or Hiduism is the way for me then fine, it could even be that one day I'll find something in a Judeo-Christian religion that makes sense or I might just come to the conclusion that it's all a load of nonsense. However, I see no reason to pin any particular label on my soul if such a beast exists. I have felt profound peace of mind in the prayer room of a monestary and in a quiet spot in a forest in the Pacific Northwest. This is making me sound like an enormous hippy, so I'll just say that as long as you find peace somewhere regardless of whether it's a church, synagogue, mosque or temple that's cool with me as long as you live and let live.

/endhippymonologue.

I don't mind the sentiment but aren't you concerned with what is true rather than what works for you or makes you go 'hrm'? I'm sure you can pick and choose bits of every religion that you find poetic, consoling or that if applied to your life would be positive for your general wellbeing but it doesn't make them anything other than mumbo jumbo passed down through less enlightened times.

/notlivingandlettinglive

[KarmaTsunami]

I don't mind the sentiment but aren't you concerned with what is true rather than what works for you or makes you go 'hrm'? I'm sure you can pick and choose bits of every religion that you find poetic, consoling or that if applied to your life would be positive for your general wellbeing but it doesn't make them anything other than mumbo jumbo passed down through less enlightened times.

/notlivingandlettinglive

The thing is, if it works for me and I'm not bothering anyone, does it really matter that you think or can scientifically prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that it's mumbo jumbo passed down through less enlightened times?

Obviously, the key thing here is 'not bothering anyone'. It's a shame very few buggers remember the one 'golden rule' that runs through almost every faith from Christianity to Paganism - live and let bloody live.

[Shaki]

The thing is, if it works for me and I'm not bothering anyone, does it really matter that you think or can scientifically prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that it's mumbo jumbo passed down through less enlightened times?

It doesn't really matter in that example, no. I was more curious as to whether it would matter to you or not if the religion you were practicing was real (and we are in the religion debate thread!). If you happen to find yourself swayed by Christianity for example, as you suggested you weren't ruling out, that would indicate that you would be willing to believe in immaculate conception which I assume you know isn't possible.

Obviously, the key thing here is 'not bothering anyone'. It's a shame very few buggers remember the one 'golden rule' that runs through almost every faith from Christianity to Paganism - live and let bloody live.

I don't think that's true but someone with better knowledge on religion could prove me wrong. There seems to be a lot of indoctrination and is it not a Christian's duty to spread the one true word of God? That's not really living and letting live.

[KarmaTsunami]

It doesn't really matter in that example, no. I was more curious as to whether it would matter to you or not if the religion you were practicing was real (and we are in the religion debate thread!). If you happen to find yourself swayed by Christianity for example, as you suggested you weren't ruling out, that would indicate that you would be willing to believe in immaculate conception which I assume you know isn't possible.

By this example I would also have to believe all the nonsense in the Old Testament about not getting my hair cut or wearing clothes with different fabrics etc. As a gay lady I'm wary about the notion of 'buffet line' religion where you pick and choose because homophobes who use religion to back up their ridiculous claims about the evils of homosexuality certainly seem able to overlook parts of the good book whilst highlighting those that suit their cause. If I ever felt that a Judeo Christian religion was the right thing for me it would be because of the good examples I've come across, as well as the positive messages you can take from the religion. I'm not sure I'm being as clear as I can be, but basically I would not be taking everything in the Bible at face-value as I'm sure a lot of Christians don't either. Those that do don't seem to understand allegory.

I don't think that's true but someone with better knowledge on religion could prove me wrong. There seems to be a lot of indoctrination and is it not a Christian's duty to spread the one true word of God? That's not really living and letting live.

I'll have to get back to you on that one.

[Shaki]

By this example I would also have to believe all the nonsense in the Old Testament about not getting my hair cut or wearing clothes with different fabrics etc. As a gay lady I'm wary about the notion of 'buffet line' religion where you pick and choose because homophobes who use religion to back up their ridiculous claims about the evils of homosexuality certainly seem able to overlook parts of the good book whilst highlighting those that suit their cause. If I ever felt that a Judeo Christian religion was the right thing for me it would be because of the good examples I've come across, as well as the positive messages you can take from the religion. I'm not sure I'm being as clear as I can be, but basically I would not be taking everything in the Bible at face-value as I'm sure a lot of Christians don't either. Those that do don't seem to understand allegory.

You are wary of buffet line religion yet at some point in the future you may be happy to pick the nice bits for yourself?! So which bits would you be taking at face value? If you remove the nasty bits you don't like and the bits which you know aren't possible or meant to be literal - in the New Testament those that centre around Jesus being the immaculately conceived son of God, rising from the dead, performing magic tricks and the likes - what are you left with? All the bible is then is personally abridged allegory - a weird story about quite a nice man. There's no problem with taking the positive messages from this story but to me that isn't treating it as a religion in which you believe. If you don't beleive in the magic then you don't believe in the religion.

I know this is all hypothetical and you never said you plan to actually adopt this or any religion so I don't mean to be too aggressive!

[KarmaTsunami]

Misinterpretation plays a big part in this 'pick and choose'. I mean, the story of Sodom and Gomorrah isn't about the condemnation of homosexuality, but that of rape and inhospitality. The sections of Leviticus that are most frequently used are part of a holiness code for the priests of Israel and these, along with other rules and rites mentioned in the Old Testament were no longer needed in the New Testament as they were for the Jewish people of Israel before the birth of Christ. Christ later condemned the Pharisees for keeping only to the letter of this old law rather than heeding his own messages - which are generally about loving your fellow man and not casting the first stone. 'Buffet line' religion bothers me because not only is it very 'pick and choose' but it also grossly misinterprets the bible.*

As for myself, I can't say I'd take any of it at face value - surely it's the message that counts? If Jesus came with the message to make peace with one another and live a morally sound life then surely it would only matter that you did this, regardless of whether you believed in the idea of immaculate conception or Jesus returning from the dead?

*I went done my reading. Also nay worries about coming off as aggressive! I could talk about these things for hours.