Effortless Mastery

[Guest]

Phil, my reading of the book isn't that Kenny Warner advocates some kind of pseudo-spiritual babble to replace the mechanics of learning an instrument and practising - he saying, and rightly so in my opinion, that learning the mechanics of playing an instrument and practising isn't enough!! The book simply tries to address some of the psychological hindrances that can detract from a musician realising and expressing their potential.

Nowhere in the book does he recommend not bothering practising or simply choosing to believe that you're better than you are - I don't think that's what he's about at all.

So...it isn't effortless then?

[bluestraveler]

So...it isn't effortless then?

The effortlessness refers to the experience of improvising freely - Warner's not suggesting that there's no effort involved in learning an instrument. Read the book and you'll get a better idea of what he's about....

[Guest]

The effortlessness refers to the experience of improvising freely - Warner's not suggesting that there's no effort involved in learning an instrument. Read the book and you'll get a better idea of what he's about....

I'm not reading the book. What is going on with you guys? Do you have a stake in the company that publishes it or something? Load of bollocks.

[Sam 45]

That is the best thing ever.

[Bigsby]

Do you have a stake in the company that publishes it or something?

Of course not. It's owned 100% by The Church of Scientology.

[jon]

So, to clarify, you're saying that "Effortless Mastery" is not, in fact, effortless.

Thank you very much, that is the bullshit cherry on the top of this glistening cake of massive, sweaty bollocks.

I heard that there's a Nigerian prince who will buy your book if you can help him out with his funds.

[MrAnderson]

Whether the concept is bullshit or not, what qualifies you to teach psychology?

Also, I can't see the author being too pleased with you making money from his ideas...

[Ernie's Ball]

So basically...if you buy into this "effortless" nonense just go and buy the book and don't waste your money taking lessons from a guy who will basically be ripping you and the author off?!

Does anyone know if this sort of stuff gets taught at music schools etc? I'd be surprised if it did but then surely if its as effective as is being claimed it should be, no?

I personally think its a pile'o'shite myself, even though I've never read the book and have no intentions to either.

What is it they say about things that are "too good to be true"? ;-y

[HairyScaryMark]

Does anyone know if this sort of stuff gets taught at music schools etc? I'd be surprised if it did but then surely if its as effective as is being claimed it should be, no?

Yes it does, at least at some of them. It's not unheard of to have a 'Music Psychology' module on some Music Degree courses, such as at Napier University

20 Credit Modules

When I went to college for music one year there was a class that was meant to be loosely based around the sort of ideas you get in "the inner game of music". I've heard a few people, who are also good musicians recommend this. It comes from a whole series of "inner game of..." books, which started with "the inner game of Tennis".

Inner Game of Music: Amazon.co.uk: W Timothy Gallwey, Barry Green: Books

At a more basic level. Plenty people say things like "if only I could play as well live as I do in my bedroom". These sort of books help you achieve this and possibly take things a step further.

They aren't a magical replacement for hard work and practice, they never claim to be.

I've also heard of a few other self help type books such as, Zen Guitar.

Zen Guitar (A fireside book): Amazon.co.uk: Philip Toshio Sudo: Books

[KimyReizeger]

buy the book and don't waste your money taking lessons from a guy who will basically be ripping you..off?!

Presumably the same applies to learning piano, studying economics and speaking German.

[scottyboy]

I think Kimy has a point there, learning pretty much any kind of skill from a teacher will involve methods derived from somewhere else. I guess advertising your course/methods using the title of someone else's book is taking it a bit too far though.

[suchathing2]

I just skimmed it, so its 8.49 a lesson.

[Alan Cynic]

I like being incompetent.......mastery would ruin my edge.

However some of you lot are being cruel...mastery-baiters, even.

[MrAnderson]

I think Kimy has a point there, learning pretty much any kind of skill from a teacher will involve methods derived from somewhere else.

Except any competent teacher will have likely spent several years training in their chosen field...would you take foreign language lessons from someone whose only experience was reading a couple of phrase books?

There are plenty of bad instrumental teachers out there ripping people off already, now bedroom psychologists are at it too...oh dear.

[Ernie's Ball]

Presumably the same applies to learning piano, studying economics and speaking German.

If the person your taking lessons from is "qualified" then no but it seems to me that all bithcesbrew has done is read the book and decided to cash in.

Better off just buying the book yourself and taking it from there.

[scottyboy]

I really doubt the OP's musical credentials are the equivalent of "reading a few phrase books". He has been offering lessons on here for years and no one decided to question his competency until he mentioned meditation or whatever "effortless mastery" involves. Yes advertising lessons using the title of someone else's method/book is possibly reprehensible but after clarifying he has read it and decided to incorporate the material into his lessons I can't see any problem. No, it's not a service I would pay for but people can judge that for themselves.

[MrAnderson]

I really doubt the OP's musical credentials are the equivalent of "reading a few phrase books". He has been offering lessons on here for years and no one decided to question his competency until he mentioned meditation or whatever "effortless mastery" involves. Yes advertising lessons using the title of someone else's method/book is possibly reprehensible but after clarifying he has read it and decided to incorporate the material into his lessons I can't see any problem. No, it's not a service I would pay for but people can judge that for themselves.

I don't mean musically, I'm not judging him on that, but from what I can see he is charging people for specific lessons on 'effortless mastery', which I can't see any other credentials for other than reading a book...

[jon]

Also, his case isn't helped by the inherent nonsense in "Effortless Mastery".

[bluestraveler]

I have absolutely no idea who 'Bitches Brew' is (in an earlier post I suggested that there was no better example of effortless mastery than Bitches Brew - I was referring to the Miles Davis record, not the author of this thread).

I just find it slightly disappointing to read so many posts that have such little substance. I don't mind cynicism where there is at least some evidence of an open or enquiring mind. But to slate books or ideas without actually knowing the first thing about them is ignorant.

To react to words without bothering to find out what the author means by those words is ignorant. I personally am not at home with some of Warner's language, but this is a sincere, serious book, written by a sincere, serious musician - you can't know If you agree with him or not unless you take the time to find out what he's about - If you don't want to, fine, but If that's the case your comments about the book are worthless and frankly meaningless - so why bother?

With regard to teaching - the only qualification that is essential is having a product, and having people who are willing to pay you for that product - judgements about that process are a matter of opinion.

Who says who can or should teach who or what? What's it got to do with you anyway? If you want to be taught something, go to someone who you think can teach you. If you believe you have something to teach, find people who are willing to be taught by you.

Of course you'll find all manner of people teaching for all manner of reasons. If anyone thinks that the way to sort out the wheat from the chaff are formal qualifications, then they have far more faith in the education market ( and I use the term 'market' on purpose) than I do. With regard to the guy who started the thread, the proof will be in the pudding...

[jon]

Despite my scepticism, my Life Coach told me that Effortless Mastery might validate me, so I'm going to let my guru cast the decisive vote.

[SooperKeef]

in all fairness i think you can teach yourself things better than people teach i ssat with my guitar for hours on the internet lookin up tabs...really since last year

[Frosty Jack]

With regard to teaching - the only qualification that is essential is having a product, and having people who are willing to pay you for that product

Utter bollocks. That's a salesman, not a teacher.

Who says who can or should teach who or what? What's it got to do with you anyway? If you want to be taught something, go to someone who you think can teach you.

And someone who I think can teach me, would be more likely to be someone who has earned a qualification proving that they can teach. Not 100% maybe, but surely it's a good guide? They key to teaching is not having the knowledge, it's having the ability to impart that knowledge, Very separate things.

[bluestraveler]

Utter bollocks. That's a salesman, not a teacher.

And someone who I think can teach me, would be more likely to be someone who has earned a qualification proving that they can teach. Not 100% maybe, but surely it's a good guide? They key to teaching is not having the knowledge, it's having the ability to impart that knowledge, Very separate things.

Your first point - you've misunderstood me. I was describing the basis on which someone is free to offer a service - whether or not that person has the ability/ integrity/sincerity etc is a separate issue - the judgement call you make when you weigh up whether or not to employ that person services.

Your second point - fair enough, that's your call. For me it depends very much on the service I'm after. I've never asked a hairdresser If they have a qualification, and If so, what. Either they cut my hair in a way which I'm happy with, or they don't.

My point is simply that education has been overtaken by money and politics, qualifications in many fields are dumbed down so much, and colleges are keen to push as many students through the hoops as possible, that I tend not to as a my first yardstick of quality. Just my opinion though.

[Frosty Jack]

Your first point - you've misunderstood me. I was describing the basis on which someone is free to offer a service - whether or not that person has the ability/ integrity/sincerity etc is a separate issue - the judgement call you make when you weigh up whether or not to employ that person services.

Don't think I misunderstood you - you seem to be saying it makes no difference if someone is trained to teach or not. I say it does.

I am fucking brilliant at long division. Doesn't mean I can go teach in a primary school.

Your second point - fair enough, that's your call. For me it depends very much on the service I'm after. I've never asked a hairdresser If they have a qualification, and If so, what. Either they cut my hair in a way which I'm happy with, or they don't.

You're speaking about their ability. I'm not questioning that. I'm questioning their ability to pass on that ability to someone else. They could be the best hairdresser in the world, doesn't mean they could make me the best hairdresser in the world.

I've known some fantastically talented musicians, but when I ask them to show me how to play something, they're clueless.

Playing ability does not mean teaching ability.

[paranoid]

Your first point - you've misunderstood me. I was describing the basis on which someone is free to offer a service - whether or not that person has the ability/ integrity/sincerity etc is a separate issue - the judgement call you make when you weigh up whether or not to employ that person services.

Your second point - fair enough, that's your call. For me it depends very much on the service I'm after. I've never asked a hairdresser If they have a qualification, and If so, what. Either they cut my hair in a way which I'm happy with, or they don't.

My point is simply that education has been overtaken by money and politics, qualifications in many fields are dumbed down so much, and colleges are keen to push as many students through the hoops as possible, that I tend not to as a my first yardstick of quality. Just my opinion though.

Why are you defending this utter horse shite?