2009/2010 season thread.

[Lemonade]

Incitement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

So by that logic, if someone comes up to you in the street and calls you a cunt, and you stab him in the neck with a screwdriver, it's him that should get punished for it?

[Alkaline]

So by using that logic, if someone comes up to you in the street and calls you a cunt, and you stab him in the neck with a screwdriver, it's him that should get punished for it?

No, both parties should be punished. Are you stupid as well?

[Adam Easy Wishes]

Incitement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The mens rea

The inciter must intend the others to engage in the behaviour constituting the offence, including any consequences which may result, and must know or believe (or possibly suspect) that those others will have the relevant mens rea.

Adebayor intended to wind them up and cause them anger perhaps.

He did not intend them to knock out a steward or throw pies.

[Lemonade]

No, both parties should be punished. Are you stupid as well?

It's statements like that that make people think you're a twat. Why can't you disagree with someone without throwing a snidey little insult on the end?

[Alkaline]

The mens rea

The inciter must intend the others to engage in the behaviour constituting the offence, including any consequences which may result, and must know or believe (or possibly suspect) that those others will have the relevant mens rea. In R v. Curr (1967) 1 AER 478 the defendant incited women to commit offences under the Family Allowances Act 1945 but, because the prosecution did not prove that the women had the mens rea to constitute the offence, the conviction was quashed.

Adebayor intended to wind them up and cause them anger perhaps.

He did not intend them to knock out a steward or throw pies.

Yeah, i see where you're going with that but surely given the occasion and type of event he would be very naive if he thought it might end in another fashion. I guess we would be required to assume that Adebayor was very stupid in that case.

[Alkaline]

It's statements like that that make people think you're a twat. Why can't you disagree with someone without throwing a snidey little insult on the end?

I'm not disagreeing with you. At no point did i say over the few posts relating to this subject that that an element of blame shouldn't be attached to the fans for their response. If you could possibly read my posts before making statements that don't tally up and putting words in my mouth you wouldn't incite a negative response.

[Adam Easy Wishes]

Yeah, i see where you're going with that but surely given the occasion and type of event he would be very naive if he thought it might end in another fashion. I guess we would be required to assume that Adebayor was very stupid in that case.

Then it comes down to opinion and not the law.

Breach of the Peace, yes. Incitement probably not.

[Alkaline]

Then it comes down to opinion and not the law.

Breach of the Peace, yes. Incitement probably not.

But surely that would be for a jury/court to be given the chance to decide.

Breach of the Peace is still a law isn't it?

[Hugh_Jazz]

Incitement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yeah, way to disprove your own argument. Have you even read that article....if so, did you understand it?

What are you accusing Adebayor of inciting? Violence? At worst, his intentions were basically a"get it right up ye" to all Arsenal fans. To suggest that he be charged with trying to bring about a riot is just so disproportionate it's fucking ridiculous.

[Alkaline]

Yeah, way to disprove your own argument. Have you even read that article....if so, did you understand it?

What are you accusing Adebayor of inciting? Violence? At worst, his intentions were basically a"get it right up ye" to all Arsenal fans. To suggest that he be charged with trying to bring about a riot is just so disproportionate it's fucking ridiculous.

Not really, if a fan was to get onto the pitch and do the same thing what would the result be?

[Adam Easy Wishes]

But surely that would be for a jury/court to be given the chance to decide.

Breach of the Peace is still a law isn't it?

I mean that the law wouldn't make an assumption in this case. Judge applies the law to the situation and finds that Adebayor did not incite Arsenal fans to commit thuggish acts on stewards, each other and the fabric of Eastlands.

Therefore is charged with BotP.

[Alkaline]

I mean that the law wouldn't make an assumption in this case. Judge applies the law to the situation and finds that Adebayor did not incite Arsenal fans to commit thuggish acts on stewards, each other and the fabric of Eastlands.

Therefore is charged with BotP.

I get you. So you're agreeing that he potentially committed a criminal act?

[Lemonade]

I'm not disagreeing with you. At no point did i say over the few posts relating to this subject that that an element of blame shouldn't be attached to the fans for their response. If you could possibly read my posts before making statements that don't tally up and putting words in my mouth you wouldn't incite a negative response.

I don't care if you're disagreeing with me or not, I just disagree with how you put your point across. I think you'll find:

Paddy Kenny took Benylin (if a consummate professional with very good disciplinary records is to be believed) . Adebayor's antics caused a steward to get knocked out and could've incited a riot if the cops hadn't been spot on. Man takes Benylin, other man causes physical harm to an innocent party as a result of his actions. Are you stupid?

There is a difference between celebrating a goal and doing something inflammatory. Adebayor did something inflammatory that could've turned out a lot worse than it did. If you don't understand that then i don't know what more i can say to make it any easier for you.

No, both parties should be punished. Are you stupid as well?

are three prime examples of what I'm talking about, and that's just from the last day. I don't want to start a childish slanging match, but I find a lot of your posts overly hostile and quarrelsome.

No doubt of course, this will be all my fault.

[Adam Easy Wishes]

I get you. So you're agreeing that he potentially committed a criminal act?

Yes - no potentially about it - he certainly commited BotP. But to be honest, if I was to go outside and shout 'cunt' really loudly I too will have commited a criminal act.

[Alkaline]

I don't care if you're disagreeing with me or not, I just disagree with how you put your point across. I think you'll find:

are three prime examples of what I'm talking about, and that's just from the last day. I don't want to start a childish slanging match, but I find a lot of your posts overly hostile and quarrelsome.

No doubt of course, this will be all my fault.

The first one was a response to the way Christy replied to me, justified in my opinion.

The second one wasn't meant like that. I can't help it if people don't understand what i'm trying to get across.

The third one was frustration at the fact that you had obviously not read any of my points previously when you posted yourself. I apologise if it was a touch harsh but c'mon! *shrugs*

[Alkaline]

Yes - no potentially about it - he certainly commited BotP. But to be honest, if I was to go outside and shout 'cunt' really loudly I too will have commited a criminal act.

Yes, but if you were to do the same in a volatile environment the ramifications would be different though no?

[Adam Easy Wishes]

Yes, but if you were to do the same in a volatile environment the ramifications would be different though no?

Yes. It wouldn't change the crime I'd commited though.

[Alkaline]

Yes. It wouldn't change the crime I'd commited though.

No, of course not, but the punishment would be more severe depending on the circumstances wouldn't it?

[Adam Easy Wishes]

No, of course not, but the punishment would be more severe depending on the circumstances wouldn't it?

Generally I would think so, I'm not totally sure how it all works but it would all depend on circumstance.

I imagine a number of Arsenal fans had also commited a BotP throughout the course of the game before Adebayor's goal. So arguably if they had all been arrested and removed from the stadium then they wouldn't have wound him up enough for his ridiculous celebration?

There are so many factors to the Adebayor case that his defence lawyer would have a field day.

[Alkaline]

Generally I would think so, I'm not totally sure how it all works but it would all depend on circumstance.

I imagine a number of Arsenal fans had also commited a BotP throughout the course of the game before Adebayor's goal. So arguably if they had all been arrested and removed from the stadium then they wouldn't have wound him up enough for his ridiculous celebration?

There are so many factors to the Adebayor case that his defence lawyer would have a field day.

I guess. I just wish they would make an example of this sort of behaviour because it is the sort of thing that needs to be eradicated from football along with racism.

The FA need to grow some balls.

[Adam Easy Wishes]

Fully agree that the FA should ban/fine him, but we know his punishment will not be severe enough and then they'll appeal and have it reduced.

[Christy]

It's not reactionary. They are comparable if you think, possibly for a minute or two, that they should dish out punishments accordingly. I'm not saying people who take drugs shouldn't be punished but more that if you must insist on suspending someone for 9 months for taking Benylin then someone who's actions could've (and did in some quarters) provoked a very negative and dangerous response should also be punished in an appropriate manner. If you're agreeing that Adebayor should probably be charged by the Police and banned for 6 months or so then you aren't

stupid.

Just to make things clear i don't think that they should be too harsh on him regarding the rake on Robin Van Rapey but they should make an example of him for his actions towards members of the public. They can't go preaching respect on the terraces and anti-racism if they aren't prepared to stretch the same punishment to those playing on the pitch as well. Whilst it is important that players are protected from the negative aspects of football support it is also important that members of the public are protected on it too.

There is a difference between celebrating a goal and doing something inflammatory. Adebayor did something inflammatory that could've turned out a lot worse than it did. If you don't understand that then i don't know what more i can say to make it any easier for you.

You appear to be under the impression that Im defending Adebayor, or suggesting that he shouldnt be punished. I have no idea where you got that from.

So, for the sake of clarity, I will re-state my take on things.

1) Paddy Kenny: totally irrelevant given that the Adebayor situation was the case at hand. I dont know why he was brought into this debate, because a drugs ban is in no way comparable to anything to do with Adebayor/RVP. However, a suitable punishment has been handed out. This can in no way be used as any kind of yardstick when considering the Adebayor case.

2) Adebayor should be disciplined on two counts, one for the stamp, one for the celebration. The punishment should not in any way relate to that of Paddy Kenny. If Adebayor is suspended for his actions, it would be completely ridiculous for anyone (you?) to suggest that "his suspension should have been harsher - I mean, look at Paddy Kenny, he didnt hurt anybody".

[Alkaline]

You appear to be under the impression that Im defending Adebayor, or suggesting that he shouldnt be punished. I have no idea where you got that from.

So, for the sake of clarity, I will re-state my take on things.

1) Paddy Kenny: totally irrelevant given that the Adebayor situation was the case at hand. I dont know why he was brought into this debate, because a drugs ban is in no way comparable to anything to do with Adebayor/RVP. However, a suitable punishment has been handed out. This can in no way be used as any kind of yardstick when considering the Adebayor case.

2) Adebayor should be disciplined on two counts, one for the stamp, one for the celebration. The punishment should not in any way relate to that of Paddy Kenny. If Adebayor is suspended for his actions, it would be completely ridiculous for anyone (you?) to suggest that "his suspension should have been harsher - I mean, look at Paddy Kenny, he didnt hurt anybody".

All i was saying was that it would be disproportionate to give someone a ban for 9 months over something inconclusive where someone who blatantly did something worse will probably get much less. Is it not the same board that judges all disciplinary hearings for the FA regardless of the offence? If so any punishment meted out could be used as a yardstick so it's not ridiculous for them to be talked about in the same discussion.

I will also ask you: What would the likely punishment for a spectator that does the same thing? Should Adebayor not be treated in the same manner or is he somehow exempt from being judged on a level playing field?

[Bigsby]

are three prime examples of what I'm talking about, and that's just from the last day. I don't want to start a childish slanging match, but I find a lot of your posts overly hostile and quarrelsome.

Agreed. I've mentioned this to you before because I've been involved in some debates with you as well, but I always found them fun but you seem to get too worked up. No need to get personal, it's just "teh internets".

[Alkaline]

Agreed. I've mentioned this to you before because I've been involved in some debates with you as well, but I always found them fun but you seem to get too worked up. No need to get personal, it's just "teh internets".

We're all good.