god created the heavens and earth

[Neil]

Woah there cowboy....you will really have to explain this one to me...

As Dave said previously, we probably don't want to open this particular can of worms again (or at least not for awhile). I refer you to this thread instead:

http://www.aberdeen-music.com/forums/politics-current-affairs/36660-military-march-tomorrow-support-stop-war.html

[Alkaline]

everyone's made up their mind about who's right or wrong way before this thread existed. obviously any atheist is going to thing a christian's beliefs are 'wrong' and vise versa.

as for the second part i can't help but find religions based on wizards and stuff amusing. sorry about that o_O

I don't believe in god and i don't think christian )or any other religions) beliefs are wrong. I don't always agree with all of them though.

It's called respecting other people's opinions, give it a try

[GraemeC]

My religious beliefs are right for me, and I can't comment on anyone else's experience of God. Everyone has their own moment of revelation, and from what I've observed it has nothing to do with the way you're brought up, the religious education you receive or the influence or lack thereof of religious organisations in your community. There are plenty of people who go through the motions of religious observance who will never know what it is to have true faith. Those who do have it, regardless of denomination, have been blessed by God, and it's not for us to judge their beliefs or practices.

You neatly avoided the obvious question there....

I assume you align yourself with a specific version of your faith...so what is your take on "other" faiths....is their interpritation wrong, are they evil in believing what they do?

No, there's nothing in the Bible about protecting child molesters. You are talking about acts of man, not acts of God. It's not the belief system that's at fault, it's the tiny minority of people who are associated with it that acted inappropriately.

Its always a good get out clause "not acts of god" you would think he'd intervene when these poor kids are in the care of people who act in his name, I work with a girl brought up by nuns and her memories are of only one or two in all the places she was "cared for" who were not horrible and barbaric.

Ten years too late and not enough gun.

And this from a man who quoted hitler to me wow!!

[scottyboy]

I don't believe in god and i don't think christian )or any other religions) beliefs are wrong. I don't always agree with all of them though.

It's called respecting other people's opinions, give it a try

not when wizards are involved. actually, by 'wrong' i thought you meant factually rather than morally or whatever.

given the various despicable things religion is used to excuse, justify etc, i'm quite comfortable despising it.

[Alkaline]

In that case, I believe in pixies, elves and unicorns and don't you dare question my beliefs! You judgemental, bigoted man.

I think everyone should have the right to question someone's beliefs and I think it's a perfectly healthy thing to do. People shouldn't be discriminated against because of their beliefs however, and maybe that is what you mean?

Believe what you like wee man

Yeah, granted questioning beliefs to a point is ok but it gets to a point when you are just badgering and harassing people for their beliefs and that is wrong.

It's human nature to question what is presented before you so it's unfair to begrudge people that. It's just the lines become blurred on here and it inevitably turns into a witch hunt due to both sides lack of understanding/acceptance.

Maybe it's worth banning or more heavily moderating religious topics on what is essentially a music discussion board. Because unless it's an open minded discussion from both sides, one will be painted in an non-favourable light (like christianity- the worlds current whipping boy in this thread).

Unless you were there when the earth was created, you don't know what happened for sure so discounting a theory because you don't personally agree without isn't logical. Until someone invents some sort of time machine to allow us to observe it first hand any theory is fair game.

[Alkaline]

given the various despicable things religion is used to excuse, justify etc, i'm quite comfortable despising it.

That's the point though, it's USED and can't be therefore held directly responsible for the actions of people who mis-use it in it's name. Fundamental reasoning chum.

[Neil]

That's the point though, it's USED and can't be therefore held directly responsible for the actions of people who mis-use it in it's name. Fundamental reasoning chum.

Agreed. But consider this:

Religion doesn't cause war. People do.

Guns don't kill people. People do.

The latter statement is often used as an argument against gun control in the US. But surely if there were less guns, then less people would die from being shot by one?

If religion didn't exist (an impossibility I know), would every war that has taken place, have actually taken place? I can think of a few wars that might not have taken place in such circumstances. What do you guys think?

[scottyboy]

That's the point though, it's USED and can't be therefore held directly responsible for the actions of people who mis-use it in it's name. Fundamental reasoning chum.

yes. tools for murder and torture are bad things. chum.

[GraemeC]

They're religious people, but their actions were based upon the political reality rather than their personal faith. Isn't that the way you want religious politicians to act?

How exactly do you know this?

How do you know that bush on a whim didn't just fancy killing some muslims?

You don't do you?

Thats my point, how do we know the decisions made by politicians are not tainted by beliefs that have no place in the life of the majority, or me as an individual...?

I may be wrong but I suspect you would have given the crusades your full support...

[Alkaline]

yes. tools for murder and torture are bad things. chum.

What? People don't directly do bad things because of religion. They make a decision to do something themselves. Whether they have been coerced into doing it by their religion or not they still ultimately have to make the decisions themselves so the buck stops there.

Religion is more often than not a scapegoat and it's picked upon by ignorant people.

Hardly any religions, that i can think of (even satanism), condone actions where the pain and suffering of others are a staple ideal.

[scottyboy]

so what? people don't do bad things directly because of guns. you can see neil's post about that. incidently you massively overestimate what i think of religion (specifically christianity, maybe i should've been clearer about that) to think i see it as the root of all mankinds ills blah blah... but as i've said about 3 times, regardless of what some book written thousands of years ago says, in practice it's long been used to 'justify' various despicable actions.

and dave's post cracked me up. water's not quite used on the same scale; furthermore the fact it's essential for us to stay alive sort of stops it from being a 'bad thing'.

[framheim]

so what? people don't do bad things directly because of guns. you can see neil's post about that. incidently you massively overestimate what i think of religion (specifically christianity, maybe i should've been clearer about that) to think i see it as the root of all mankinds ills blah blah... but as i've said about 3 times, regardless of what some book written thousands of years ago says, in practice it's long been used to 'justify' various despicable actions.

and dave's post cracked me up. water's not quite used on the same scale; furthermore the fact it's essential for us to stay alive sort of stops it from being a 'bad thing'.

i don't think that arguments ever been very fair to religion. what about the millions of good deeds done in the name of religion? educating almost the whole of scotland for one before the government developed state education for all.

granted there have been some truly terrible things done under the guise of religion but it's really shit to use that as an argument against religion and people holding religious beliefs. i think it's fair to say that out of the millions of christians in world very few of them have done truly terrible things to other people.

organised religion is a strange beast that's for sure but you have to look at the good it can do as well as the bad that's done in it's name. it can give a sense of community and hope for those who desperatly need it. it also helps to provide care for vulnerable members of the community with nothing required in return. there are worse evils in the world than a christian.

[scottyboy]

Well done for completely missing the point yet again. It's obvious you're just trolling this discussion and you don't have any real interest in the topic or anything worthwhile to say. Go find something else to do.

clearly i couldn't handle the depth and subtlety you put into those two sentences. do i need to have studied theology to get to your level of 'intellectual debate' on religion? you're awesome.

of course it's obvious i've been trolling the last few pages. however, i only started doing so when the thread deviated so far from the original topic of creation it just became hilarious. it now seems to be about the war in iraq, contraception, guns and who is or isn't 'wrong' (whatever alkaline actually meant by that), although you're not solely to blame for that. besides, while you find my posts facetious i find yours pretentious, elitist and verbose.

if you are indeed bothered by said trolling of the, ahem, 'topic' i'll retire from the thread and await some juicy hitler quotes or whatever you care to throw up.

have fun

[Spoonie]

my biggest problem with religous debate is that while it may start with the best of intentions, it always ends up being those who are religous or at least tolerant of religious belief against those who aren't and those who don't care but fancy trolling. the ones who come across as the most preachy always seem to be those who claim to be athiests but are actually more interested in belittling others beliefs. why can't you just accept that some people believe in something that you don't? it makes you look insecure and childish, like you ffel you're missing out on something but don't want to admit it, to come on here and rant on about how religion is a lot of shite. this should have been a chance to learn about others belief systems and what makes them tick. instead it's just been a lot of shite.

/x

[scottyboy]

who is 'you'? it includes me? you can rest assured i don't feel left out of anything. as for how you think i 'look' i won't lie to you: i don't care what you think.

[Alkaline]

my biggest problem with religous debate is that while it may start with the best of intentions, it always ends up being those who are religous or at least tolerant of religious belief against those who aren't and those who don't care but fancy trolling. the ones who come across as the most preachy always seem to be those who claim to be athiests but are actually more interested in belittling others beliefs. why can't you just accept that some people believe in something that you don't? it makes you look insecure and childish, like you ffel you're missing out on something but don't want to admit it, to come on here and rant on about how religion is a lot of shite. this should have been a chance to learn about others belief systems and what makes them tick. instead it's just been a lot of shite.

/x

Agreed, very well said

[AKMartin]

A side issue. It irks me when people respond to "religion" threads with nothing but Bill Hicks This or Ricky Gervais That.

Not that I dislike either comedian. But it grates on a thread like this. Seems that some folk can't get past the comedy level in any debate.

AKM

[Neil]

But it grates on a thread like this. Seems that some folk can't get past the comedy level in any debate.

It's called having a sense of humour.

[AKMartin]

It's called Inadequate Mental Function.

There's always one clueless berk who follows big-word arguments blankly then pipes up with something funny he once heard.

to which I say

AKM

[Neil]

It's called Inadequate Mental Function.

Or alternatively, some people where trying to make light of a subject (i.e. religion) that gets taken far too seriously by some people sometimes.

[Old Gold]

Some people (such as Hicks) found the best way to get an oppinion across is to display it in a way that is understandable by the target audience.

I wouldn't write an argument on this website in German as nobody would bother reading it. Same as I wouldn't write one in boring, in an ever so serious fashion as it would be lost on many and automatically have me labelled as a boring cunt, and in turn make my oppinion seem less important.

[framheim]

but then you have to also remember that hicks was a christian as well as a comedian. which is kinda ironic when people quote him at christians all the time in arguments against christianity.

for the record, i'm agnostic. i think this has been, for the main, an interesting debate but it has been spoiled by the general "ach, it's all just shite aboot wizards" responses from the atheists. and also by some of the more fervently put across beliefs of the christians. fairs fair and all that.

did we even agree that creationism isn't really science and shouldn't be taught as such? i forget.

[Marillionboy]

Did you get Richard Dawkins' 'The God Dellusion' for Christmas? I've been flicking through my dads new copy and it's pretty cool stuff.

I still don't believe in either aetheism or religion though. In a way, everybody is agnostic.

In what way exactly? I doubt the Pope is particularly agnostic in any way.

[Old Gold]

In what way exactly? I doubt the Pope is particularly agnostic in any way.

I was speaking out of my arse, essentially.

[timson]

sorry if this has already been said, but i think that science pretty much makes this arguement pointless since scientists are pretty much on their way to theorizing everything, and whoever said it was created 2007 years ago?!?!!?