god created the heavens and earth

[DarkHorse]

In six days a few thousand years ago.......???

Discuss.

Only on the 4th day were the luminaries - the sun and moon set in place to give a reference frequency to measure the passing of time. "...they shal serve as signs, and for festivals, and fror days and years ..." So the first three 'days' were indeterminate periods of time as God had not yet created the timeframe.

There are whole loads of commentaries on why the world is 5767 'years 'old.

It's Beresishis 1: 14-19 (Genesis)

I don't have the commentaries (chagiga 12a, Vilna Gaon, Rambam et al) to hand and I can't be bothered typing out the Rashi. Wouldn't trust the translations in an 'old testament' with a bargepole either. You might note if you look at the original Hebrew text there is a missing vav in the first reference to lights compared with the sexond reference. This may be revealing that the lights were less bright in the beginning than on the fourth day. IIRC Rashi explains that the luminaries were not yet set in place. The earth is travelling round the Sun a day is a longer time than 24 hours while the luminaries were being brought into place. One could extrapolate the brightening of the lights were in preparation for Adam Ha Rishon and henceforth humanity for the 6th day.

It depends which level you are reading or wish to read the script at. The 1st chapter is quite illustrated in symbolism so perhaps Zohar, Sefer Yetzira or Tanya may give some insight on how to read into the verse .

[GraemeC]

Only on the 4th day were the luminaries - the sun and moon set in place to give a reference frequency to measure the passing of time. "...they shal serve as signs, and for festivals, and fror days and years ..." So the first three 'days' were indeterminate periods of time as God had not yet created the timeframe.

There are whole loads of commentaries on why the world is 5767 'years 'old.

It's Beresishis 1: 14-19 (Genesis)

I don't have the commentaries (chagiga 12a, Vilna Gaon, Rambam et al) to hand and I can't be bothered typing out the Rashi. Wouldn't trust the translations in an 'old testament' with a bargepole either. You might note if you look at the original Hebrew text there is a missing vav in the first reference to lights compared with the sexond reference. This may be revealing that the lights were less bright in the beginning than on the fourth day. IIRC Rashi explains that the luminaries were not yet set in place. The earth is travelling round the Sun a day is a longer time than 24 hours while the luminaries were being brought into place. One could extrapolate the brightening of the lights were in preparation for Adam Ha Rishon and henceforth humanity for the 6th day.

It depends which level you are reading or wish to read the script at. The 1st chapter is quite illustrated in symbolism so perhaps Zohar, Sefer Yetzira or Tanya may give some insight on how to read into the verse .

Or, one could possibly come to the conclusion that its all a pile of horseshit.

[JaseyBoi]

You could, but you'd be wrong.

Are you saying god did create everything?........And have you any GOOOD conclusive proof? lol

IMHO the bible is just an overrated tabloid of its day (imo)

[Benji]

You could, but you'd be wrong.

And what makes you right?

The creation of God is by far the biggest attribute of spreading ignorance in this World, if logic actually prevailed for a nano-second in that brain of yours you'd see the actual reason for Religion is to divide.

Religion has become 'devil Worship' in the context that it is destroying the paradise that we habitually live on. The greatest trick the 'devil' could pull was to let the World believe that he was God and watch them destroy themselves convincing each other he was. That's how I see it. Religion is filth.

[Frosty Jack]

all I can say is the most obvious examples of ignorance I've seen recently is people on this thread making pathetic attempts at belittling the beliefs of others.

I think that the problem with this thread is everyone seems to be seeing it as a means of either attacking or defending religion. If you truly believe something, you shouldn't feel it needs to be defended. We can probably assume that no-one is going to change their whole belief system based an anything said here, so how about we take it from the point of view of enlightening each other as to why we believe what we do?

Do you want to tell the guys down at the Salvation Army looking after the needy and homeless that they're devil worshippers? What about the St. John's Ambulance workers that were on 24/7 over the Christmas period, many of whom are religious? Does their faith make them "filth"? So often, ignorant people only look at the bad things and forget about the huge amount of good that is achieved through faith.

Good point. Of course, you don't have to be religious to be good - there are plenty of atheists in these kind of jobs too - but it can certainly provide the necessary motivation for some to go out and actually do something. I'd like to think that people would be doing these jobs because they realise it benefits society as a whole, but if someone needs a higher power to tell them to do it, then that's fine. I wouldn't try to take that away.

[JaseyBoi]

Have you read it?

Yeah i was raised untill i was 14 years old as a devout christian (familys eh).....I attended church regularly and attended sunday school every sunday for 14years.....Then i asked to many questions that i wasnt meant to so my parents stopped me going and left me with my aunty athiest.....What i just didnt understand and to this day still dont is "How and why do so many people put so much belief into this.......The bible contradicts itself like 20 times in the 1st quarter....You question it your told its gods will.....LOL what about all the EVIDENCE that now proves that the bible was heavily editted deliberatly leaving out one of the most important people........Jesus Christ surely cant be happy that he died for humans to be supported by ignorance.........

I could go on all day but tbh with spoutings comes evidence and tbh i cant be assed scouring the net for legit links explaining who mary magdalene was and what actual role she played towards her HUSBAND.....

Im not saying that everyone who is religous is wrong and im right or whatever im just trying to find out why the part of my brain that relays logic just will not allow me to believe in any religion.......Take scientology for example.......Sounds good to start with...Insteresting sound theorys (some of them) etc......Then you find out what it is they actually believe deep rooted,regarding alien races etc is amusing........Then you find out that it was a washed up scifi writer who originaly penned scientology beliefs is where i drop off to look for another religion......Maybe i should start my own religion,The church of Jasus Trust

[GraemeC]

I find the concept of religion very confusing...I love to see religious leaders all getting together and acting all matey...I mean, what are they feeling deep down while showing acceptance of each others faith on the outside.

Dave, what do you think? do you believe your faith is the one true faith? they cant all be right...can they?

I also have major problems with a belief system which actively hides the actions of its evil members, the nuns of Nazareth house for example...or these child molesting predators disguised as priests and ministers.

How do people feel about the war mongering actions of supposed Christians like JW Bush and Tony Blair?

[Neil]

No, there's nothing in the Bible about protecting child molesters. You are talking about acts of man, not acts of God. It's not the belief system that's at fault, it's the tiny minority of people who are associated with it that acted inappropriately.

What about when the belief is system is at fault? For example, The Roman Catholic Church's stance on contraception helping the spread of AIDS and other sexually transmitted diseases around the world.

Ten years too late and not enough gun.

Are you being serious? And here was me thinking Jesus was all about the love and tolerance of others...

[scottyboy]

Bible scholars take subjectivity as a given, I'm sorry I didn't make that clear. If you'd couched your original statement in terms more conducive to theological and teleological debate, I may have introduced concepts that would have contributed more fully to an intellectual discussion between two people that had read and analysed the Bible and the important commentaries.

I'm just wondering how many people who have contributed to this thread have actually studied the Bible properly. Not many books make sense after the first six pages, and the Bible is no different.

not everyone studies every piece of fiction they read in depth.

[Neil]

That's more about the internal politics of the Catholic church and the ongoing struggle between Western progressives and the more conservative elements in the developing world. It's going to take time to change attitudes, but the central message of Christianity should not be confused with the societal prejudices of individual members.

Maybe I'm thinking about this particular issue too simplistically, but I thought the Catholic Church's stance on contraception was inspired from what is in the Bible (something I haven't read cover to cover I will admit). For example:

Genesis 38:8 Then Judah said to Onan, 'Go in to your brother's wife and perform the duty of a brother-in-law to her; raise up offspring for your brother.' But since Onan knew that the offspring would not be his, he spilled his semen on the ground whenever he went in to see his brother's wife, so that he would not give offspring to his brother. What he did was displeasing in the sight of the Lord, and he put him to death also.

How has this got anything to do with their internal politics?

[scottyboy]

So what's your point?

just because you haven't wasted hours rereading a crap book and various commentaries on it doesn't mean you only read 6 pages of it.

[scottyboy]

Genesis 38:8 Then Judah said to Onan, 'Go in to your brother's wife and perform the duty of a brother-in-law to her; raise up offspring for your brother.' But since Onan knew that the offspring would not be his, he spilled his semen on the ground whenever he went in to see his brother's wife, so that he would not give offspring to his brother. What he did was displeasing in the sight of the Lord, and he put him to death also.

that's pretty harsh

[Alkaline]

o_O

You're all bigoted and prejudiced.

[scottyboy]

o_O

You're all bigoted and prejudiced.

why's that?

[Neil]

o_O

You're all bigoted and prejudiced.

I'm not. I'm just very interested in why some people have specific beliefs and I find these discussions, for the most part, quite rewarding in that regard. And I like arguing for the sake of it sometimes.

[Alkaline]

You're all too quick to say whose right or wrong and the 'facts' you're all quoting are ALL largely unsubstantiated.

Live and let live. Tolerate others and their beliefs and if people want to believe something bite your lip and keep your mouth shut and leave them too it.

[Neil]

Live and let live. Tolerate others and their beliefs and if people want to believe something bite your lip and keep your mouth shut and leave them too it.

So you don't believe people's beliefs should ever be questioned then?

[Alkaline]

So you don't believe people's beliefs should ever be questioned then?

Who's to say what's right and wrong? That's a bit judgmental really.

[scottyboy]

You're all too quick to say whose right or wrong and the 'facts' you're all quoting are ALL largely unsubstantiated.

Live and let live. Tolerate others and their beliefs and if people want to believe something bite your lip and keep your mouth shut and leave them too it.

everyone's made up their mind about who's right or wrong way before this thread existed. obviously any atheist is going to thing a christian's beliefs are 'wrong' and vise versa.

as for the second part i can't help but find religions based on wizards and stuff amusing. sorry about that o_O

[Neil]

Who's to say what's right and wrong? That's a bit judgmental really.

In that case, I believe in pixies, elves and unicorns and don't you dare question my beliefs! You judgemental, bigoted man.

I think everyone should have the right to question someone's beliefs and I think it's a perfectly healthy thing to do. People shouldn't be discriminated against because of their beliefs however, and maybe that is what you mean?

[scottyboy]

is he still in the habit of puting people to death for things like that? o_O

[Old Gold]

There's a significant faction within the Catholic church who prefer to look at the example of Jesus and what his take on the situation would be. I'd imagine it would be along the lines of "For My sake, stop giving each other AIDS". It could also be argued that Onan's crime was not the spilling of his seed, but the fact he disobeyed his father by deliberately failing in his duty to continue the bloodline of Jacob. The passage also seems to suggest that Tamar was already pregnant by Er, or at least Onan thought she may be, and that his union with Tamar would be unholy.

Neighbours has nowt on that.

Alkaline, surely calling everybody prejudiced and a bigot is every bit as judgemental?

[Neil]

There's a significant faction within the Catholic church who prefer to look at the example of Jesus and what his take on the situation would be. I'd imagine it would be along the lines of "For My sake, stop giving each other AIDS". It could also be argued that Onan's crime was not the spilling of his seed, but the fact he disobeyed his father by deliberately failing in his duty to continue the bloodline of Jacob. The passage also seems to suggest that Tamar was already pregnant by Er, or at least Onan thought she may be, and that his union with Tamar would be unholy.

Fair enough, it's certainly open to different interpretations and I prefer that take on it.

I hope for the sake of many that Pope Benedict has the courage to try and change the Catholic Chruch's current stance on contraception, as I've read it's being considered.

[scottyboy]

I think it's a fantastic book and I don't consider the time I've spent studying it to have been wasted at all. You're not going to bait me by being facetious.

as far as i can recall it was crap. i was also just explaining my 'point'.

[GraemeC]

but I think that Bush and Blair did something that Graeme would approve of

Woah there cowboy....you will really have to explain this one to me...