god created the heavens and earth

[Skacel]

Fundamentalist Christianity. Fascinating. These people actually believe the world is 12 thousand years old. Swear to God! Based on what? I asked them. "Well, we looked at all the people in the Bible, and we added them up all the way back to Adam and Eve, their ages – 12 thousand years." Well, how fucking scientific! Okay. I didn't know that you'd gone to so much trouble there. That's good.

You believe the world's 12 thousand years old? "That's right." Okay, I got one word to ask you. A one word question. Ready? "Uh-uh." Dinosaurs.

You know, the world's 12 thousand years old and dinosaurs existed, and they existed in that time … you'd think it would have been mentioned in the fucking Bible at some point. "And lo, Jesus and the disciples walked to Nazareth. But the trail was blocked by a giant brontosaurus … with a splinter in his paw. And O, the disciples did run a-shrieking: 'What a big fucking lizard, Lord!' But Jesus was unafraid, and he took the splinter from the brontosaurus's paw, and the big lizard became his friend. And Jesus sent him to Scotland where he lived in a loch for O, so many years, inviting thousands of American tourists to bring their fat fucking families and their fat dollar bills. And O, Scotland did praise the Lord: 'Thank you, Lord. Thank you, Lord. Thank you, Lord.'"

Bill Hicks

seriously tho.

to me its just as weird thinking about a god as it is thinking about a big bang.

i guess we will never know.

[Old Gold]

Atheism isn't a "philosophy of doubt". It's simply a belief that no deities exist. I'm an atheist and I can assure you I have no doubt in my mind that Gods (of any kind) don't and indeed can't, exist.

If you have any doubt, then you're agnostic.

But if a God made your mind, then it can decide whether it wants you to believe in dieties or not.

[scottyboy]

But if a God made your mind, then it can decide whether it wants you to believe in dieties or not.

now you're just talking bollocks...

[Old Gold]

now you're just talking bollocks...

I'm admittedly playing around for arguments sake, but it's hardly bollocks.

[Neil]

But if a God made your mind, then it can decide whether it wants you to believe in dieties or not.

So I assume because you think this then you also don't believe people have free will either? i.e. God makes us think we can believe what we want, but we can't really - it's all an illusion.

[Old Gold]

So I assume because you think this then you also don't believe people have free will either? i.e. God makes us think we can believe what we want, but we can't really - it's all an illusion.

I don't really strictly believe anything, but I suppose it's possible.

[ZeromiserY]

So I assume because you think this then you also don't believe people have free will either? i.e. God makes us think we can believe what we want, but we can't really - it's all an illusion.

"now now, lets not get tied up in semantics."

this is getting interesting.

[-matthEw-]

did anyone else watch that programme 'the trouble with athiesm'? the guy on it was a complete knob but it raised some good points.

[GraemeC]

no, "they" don't.

so so far, a 'bit off' (or way off) with everything you've posted in this thread?!! o_O

Good grief....what have I said to get you all prickly...?

Just tell me why i'm so off....i'm an adult I can take it.

[GraemeC]

The reason I started this thread was the worrying trend of US government on insisting that they teach kids that god created the heavens and earth and all things in it in 6 days as actual fact, this now appears to be creeping into the curriculum of UK schools.

This of course renders the thinking of Darwin and all discoveries by scientists before and after his amazing revelations as lies....I don't think so.

And another point, can any believers out there (thats if your keen to pop your head above the battlements) explain how someone was able to write the books of Genesis 'in chronological detail' when there was no fucker there...??

[Addi]

And another point, can any believers out there (thats if your keen to pop your head above the battlements) explain how someone was able to write the books of Genesis 'in chronological detail' when there was no fucker there...??

Basic stuff...

The first 5 books of the bible are all written by Moses.* (they are called the Pentateuch in the Tanakh [jewish] or The books of Moses in the Old Testament [christian]). In these books Moses basically writes down what God tells him to. Which not only explain why Moses was able to write about the beginning of the universe etc... when he wasn't there but also that he was able to write about his own death before it occured.

This method (God telling people what to write) is basically how the whole bible was written.

[*Actually biblical scholars (scientist types) think they were written by 4 different authors. This makes sense because for example stories are told twice (the creation of man for example). One writer calls God "Elohim" and another writer calls him "YHWH", one author is more concerned about religious law and matters of the church [which makes for a very boring book by the way. Avoid te second half of Exous and most of the 3rd book...unless you want detailed descriptions on how to build a tabernacle] and the last writer wrote Deuteronomy. I highly recommend this course on the old testament ]

This of course renders the thinking of Darwin and all discoveries by scientists before and after his amazing revelations as lies....I don't think so.

It doesn't do this at all. The majority of 'natural philosphers' who began the modern scientific revelution held (often strong) religious beliefs and didn't have any trouble reconciling their beliefs with their research.

Whats to say he didn't just design the world in 6 days to make it look like it was millions of years old and then start it there.

Example: I tell you I am going to win the London marathon, but no one is allowed to look until the last 100 metres of the track. If i just jogged on the spot until i was all sweaty and tired and then ran the last 200 metres of the track. You open your eyes and see me running the last 100 metres while sweaty and tired.

If i manage to think of every way that you can test to see whether i actually ran(eg. I tamper with security cameras along the route to show me running past them, I run a mile every day for 26 days to wear the soles of my shoes down 26 miles worth etc...) then can you say for certain whether I ran the race?

God could have just 'set up' the universe to look like it was billions of years old.

Like loading a game from your memory card...if you load from a save point half way through the level then someone walks in to the room...how do they know you haven't been playing from the start of the game?

hot chocolate time. please ignore all spelling and grammatical errors...i spent enough time writing this and I can't be bothered checking it properly (sorry).

[scottyboy]

It doesn't do this at all. The majority of 'natural philosphers' who began the modern scientific revelution held (often strong) religious beliefs and didn't have any trouble reconciling their beliefs with their research.

Whats to say he didn't just design the world in 6 days to make it look like it was millions of years old and then start it there.

Example: I tell you I am going to win the London marathon, but no one is allowed to look until the last 100 metres of the track. If i just jogged on the spot until i was all sweaty and tired and then ran the last 200 metres of the track. You open your eyes and see me running the last 100 metres while sweaty and tired.

If i manage to think of every way that you can test to see whether i actually ran(eg. I tamper with security cameras along the route to show me running past them, I run a mile every day for 26 days to wear the soles of my shoes down 26 miles worth etc...) then can you say for certain whether I ran the race?

God could have just 'set up' the universe to look like it was billions of years old.

Like loading a game from your memory card...if you load from a save point half way through the level then someone walks in to the room...how do they know you haven't been playing from the start of the game?

hot chocolate time. please ignore all spelling and grammatical errors...i spent enough time writing this and I can't be bothered checking it properly (sorry).

have you not seen the bit in the borat film where the christian guy is going on about he 'is what he is' and didn't evolve from monkeys? seriously though, while i agree that teaching the creation parts of the bible as literal truth doesn't deem 'all scientists' liars it's still at odds with evolution. i don't claim to be that familiar with the bible, but as far as i recall, it claims that god personally created adam and eve; they were the first humans and we're directly descended from them. people who know anything about evolution know we evolved from monkeys or apes or whatever. thus, people who take the bible's account of creation literaly, think the theory of evolution is telling porkies. theres a reason these american fundamentalist types banned teaching darwin's theories in schools and at least one person was indeed prosecuted for doing it (ok this was in the 1920s but origin of the species was published in 1859 or thereabouts).

also, i dunno many 'natural philosophers' but Darwin had huge problems reconciling his discoveries with his (previous) religious beliefs. admittedly, the fact he risked being accused of blasphemy and whatnot could hardly have eased his state of mind. minor point anyway, whether he felt good about it or not doesn't change the fact his theory is at odds with the adam and eve myth.

also, no offence but i think you're analogies are pish. i see what you're saying (i think it's rubbish, but then most likely so do you; unless you're a christian fundamentalist you're just putting this forward for arguments sake) but you could just say 'he's god, he can make the world look however old he wants too, cos he's a supremely powered being/ wizard.' i don't see how it compares to playing a video game. if you were half an hour into a save then it's irrelevant whether you've being sitting their for 30mins or not... definitely not quite the same as faking the difference between 6 days and a few billion years. if you tried to fake you were 100 hours played into a game without saving then maybe but it'd be easy to tell: if you're lying dead in a pile of your own shit you did it one go, if not you loaded a save... waste of time to type this bit... o_O

[Addi]

Darwin didn't have trouble reconciling his beliefs with his research, he put off making his research known because of the political climate at the time and because he knew the trouble it would cause.

I recommend this book. As you can imagine, Darwin appears in it a lot. But chapter 7 is the main one you will want to read for more background on his opinions on his theories. [chapter entitled: "The Warfare Merchants: The roots of modern science (4) - Darwin, Evolution and the Victorian Conflict Thsis"]

"Here then I had at last got a theory by which to work; but I was so anxious to avoid prejudice, that I determined not for some time to write even the briefest sketch of it." - Darwin

You'll notice he didn't say "anxious to avoid trying to reconcile this with my religious beliefs."

If you don't know about the history of the 'conflict' between science and the bible and you haven't read the bible then what are you basing your opinions on? What other people have told you? Did you check the facts relating to what they told you? If not then you aren't being very scientific, you are just believing propaganda because if there really IS a conflict between religion and science then they have been putting out misinformation and lies about each other to try and discredit each other and sway public opinion.

A lot of people say that religion is used as a crutch for weak people, but in the current climate I think it takes a lot of balls to hold a religious belief and state it publicly because so many 'enlightened' children of science take such joy in attacking and making fun of anyone who doesn't agree with their paradigm.

The bible is the most important book written ever. It influences every aspect of our lives every day. Our entire system of ethics, enshrined in the laws of the land, are built upon what the bible says and you haven't read it. It's quite literally the foundation of our civilization. It is still the biggest force in shaping the world today, especially since the neocons got into power in America and have tried to turn the world into a christian vs muslim thing.

But before we can take this discussion I think we need to try and define what we mean by God, because it's obvious we have different ideas.

When I think of God i think of a being with an ability to change everything and anything, we exist only due to his continued will and the laws of physics, universal constants, anything that has or will ever exist can be changed by him at will in the past, present or future. He can do anything....so why couldn't he make it appear that the world was older than it is? I just said in my definition of God that he could do ANYTHING so he MUST be able to do it.

The analogy I put forward of the saved game is just meant to give you a general flavour for the idea. Like all metaphors it can be pushed too far. The point I was making is that if you don't see the start of something (eg. the start of the universe/start of a game) then you can't draw definitive conclusions about it when you have the possibility of getting to the exact same moment in that system from different starting points.

I shall try again - you are walking on a road that forks off in two directions over the horizon. You meet a man walking the other way...can you tell which fork of the road he came from?

He could have come from fork A or fork B and you would be in exactly the same position in space and time either way. So lacking any other information you can't decide where he came from. So either the world could be billions of years old or it could have been designed by God 6,000 years ago to appear to be billions of years old.

[ Edit: Fixing some spellings and stuff ]

[nullmouse]

If you don't know about the history of the 'conflict' between science and the bible and you haven't read the bible then what are you basing your opinions on? What other people have told you? Did you check the facts relating to what they told you? If not then you aren't being very scientific, you are just believing propaganda because if there really IS a conflict between religion and science then they have been putting out misinformation and lies about each other to try and discredit each other and sway public opinion.

You don't have to look much further than the Dover trial in the USA to know there is conflict between religion and science, but it's all coming from the religious side. As you rightly point out, Darwin and his theories never excluded god, allowing for relgious believers and scientists to reconcile their own beliefs. However, that's not enough for the bible literalists, who did see Darwin's theories as an attack on religion.

ID / Creationism have been putting out misinformation and lies under the guise of scientific credibility, yet provide no scientific proof for any of their claims and observe every opportunity to attack evolution. It's scientific vacuity is damaging to religion - plugging every gap with 'God did it' and using 'irreducible complexity' as the gold standard for a system being hand-made and not evolved. Everytime science can fill one of their shakily defined holes it squeezes God out of the equation.

As I said, I work with several highly relgious scientists in biology based research labs - None of them have any trouble reconciling their work to their beliefs.

A lot of people say that religion is used as a crutch for weak people, but in the current climate I think it takes a lot of balls to hold a religious belief and state it publicly because so many 'enlightened' children of science take such joy in attacking and making fun of anyone who doesn't agree with their paradigm.

I don't agree with this, I feel you're blaming science unfairly. It's certainly something I've never seen any evidence of - And even on this thread, the only religions that I rant about negatively are those that take the absolute literal interpretation.

The bible is the most important book written ever. It influences every aspect of our lives every day. Our entire system of ethics, enshrined in the laws of the land, are built upon what the bible says and you haven't read it. It's quite literally the foundation of our civilization. It is still the biggest force in shaping the world today, especially since the neocons got into power in America and have tried to turn the world into a christian vs muslim thing.

As a code of morals, the bible has it's advantages. As anything to base science upon, it's meaningless.

When I think of God i think of a being with an ability to change everything and anything, we exist only due to his continued will and the laws of physics, universal constants, anything that has or will ever exist can be changed by him at will in the past, present or future. He can do anything....so why couldn't he make it appear that the world was older than it is? I just said in my definition of God that he could do ANYTHING so he MUST be able to do it.

The beauty of this definition is no one can argue with it. But a being that could change everything and anything removes free will, no?

I shall try again - you are walking on a road that forks off in two directions over the horizon. You meet a man walking the other way...can you tell which fork of the road he came from?

He could have come from fork A or fork B and you would be in exactly the same position in space and time either way. So lacking any other information you can't decide where he came from. So either the world could be billions of years old or it could have been designed by God 6,000 years ago to appear to be billions of years old.

I'm not going to argue which fork he came from, either way is pretty damn impressive, but I think it takes a real fool to mistake a man that's been walking for 6,000 years from one who's been on the go for 4.5 billion years.

I'd mention all the radiometric tests that have been done to age the earth and the awfully large pile of fossil data that's kicking around - but as you say, your definition of god allows all this to be accounted for by his whim. Which is where we're obviously going to come to loggerheads - I'll happily support your religion, but if you insist the basis of my career is fabricated lies by your deity then I may become a tad defensive. Why is there any need to take a literalist approach?

[GraemeC]

Darwin didn't have trouble reconciling his beliefs with his research, he put off making his research known because of the political climate at the time and because he knew the trouble it would cause.

I recommend this book. As you can imagine, Darwin appears in it a lot. But chapter 7 is the main one you will want to read for more background on his opinions on his theories. [chapter entitled: "The Warfare Merchants: The roots of modern science (4) - Darwin, Evolution and the Victorian Conflict Thsis"]

"Here then I had at last got a theory by which to work; but I was so anxious to avoid prejudice, that I determined not for some time to write even the briefest sketch of it." - Darwin

You'll notice he didn't say "anxious to avoid trying to reconcile this with my religious beliefs."

If you don't know about the history of the 'conflict' between science and the bible and you haven't read the bible then what are you basing your opinions on? What other people have told you? Did you check the facts relating to what they told you? If not then you aren't being very scientific, you are just believing propaganda because if there really IS a conflict between religion and science then they have been putting out misinformation and lies about each other to try and discredit each other and sway public opinion.

A lot of people say that religion is used as a crutch for weak people, but in the current climate I think it takes a lot of balls to hold a religious belief and state it publicly because so many 'enlightened' children of science take such joy in attacking and making fun of anyone who doesn't agree with their paradigm.

The bible is the most important book written ever. It influences every aspect of our lives every day. Our entire system of ethics, enshrined in the laws of the land, are built upon what the bible says and you haven't read it. It's quite literally the foundation of our civilization. It is still the biggest force in shaping the world today, especially since the neocons got into power in America and have tried to turn the world into a christian vs muslim thing.

But before we can take this discussion I think we need to try and define what we mean by God, because it's obvious we have different ideas.

When I think of God i think of a being with an ability to change everything and anything, we exist only due to his continued will and the laws of physics, universal constants, anything that has or will ever exist can be changed by him at will in the past, present or future. He can do anything....so why couldn't he make it appear that the world was older than it is? I just said in my definition of God that he could do ANYTHING so he MUST be able to do it.

The analogy I put forward of the saved game is just meant to give you a general flavour for the idea. Like all metaphors it can be pushed too far. The point I was making is that if you don't see the start of something (eg. the start of the universe/start of a game) then you can't draw definitive conclusions about it when you have the possibility of getting to the exact same moment in that system from different starting points.

I shall try again - you are walking on a road that forks off in two directions over the horizon. You meet a man walking the other way...can you tell which fork of the road he came from?

He could have come from fork A or fork B and you would be in exactly the same position in space and time either way. So lacking any other information you can't decide where he came from. So either the world could be billions of years old or it could have been designed by God 6,000 years ago to appear to be billions of years old.

[ Edit: Fixing some spellings and stuff ]

Ok...so what you are saying is that god for whatever reason has made the world appear to be billions of years old... why would he do that...?

I cant get my head round why anyone would believe the fairy stories that make up the bible, the fact that each generation needs to adapt and modify the interpretation of the book to fit in with unquestionable scientific fact surly proves that its all fiction.

Fundamentalist Christian belief is one huge contradiction..."we exist only due to his continued will and the laws of physics"...

A few more questions....where did god come from and in who's image was he made?

Why did he create the heavens and earth and everything in it?

What did he do with himself and where did he live before he created the heavens?

[ZeromiserY]

The reason I started this thread was the worrying trend of US government on insisting that they teach kids that god created the heavens and earth and all things in it in 6 days as actual fact, this now appears to be creeping into the curriculum of UK schools.

This of course renders the thinking of Darwin and all discoveries by scientists before and after his amazing revelations as lies....I don't think so.

And another point, can any believers out there (thats if your keen to pop your head above the battlements) explain how someone was able to write the books of Genesis 'in chronological detail' when there was no fucker there...??

i studies RMPS (religious, moral and philosophical studies) , and it was made clear from the outset that we would be taught about the bible, not to believe in god. we would be taught about 2 religions (christianity and one of our choosing) but we were in no way being taught to believe these things. it was done from a very neutral position. i enjoyed learning about all those crazy bible stories and then picking them to bits with the class/tutor. they use both sides of the coin.

you didnt get me all prickly. when i post on using just text it often comes across more agressive than i intend. no offense meant.

[nullmouse]

It's untrue to say that each generation adapts and modifies the content and message of the Bible. It is continually being put into new and more modern language is due to the fact religious teaching is now carried out in native, rather than classical tongues.

Is it not a bit naive to expect the original meaning to be maintained when it's been translated into numerous versions, some word-for-word and some using idioms judged to be equivalent? Nuances in languages can alter meaning substantially, and the judgement on how to reflect that would be left to human bias - Pretty far from the word of God, really.

The bible is open to many interpretations, as I think we've all touched upon in the rest of this thread - In some highly religious groups (Intelligent Design) it's even being hidden behind countless layers of scientific clap-trap to give the idea of a creator more tangible / plausible integrity. If that's not modifying the content and message to suit a modern goal, I don't know what is.

[Spoonie]

it was never compulsory at our school. your parents just had to have a word.

/x

[Frosty Jack]

God wasn't made. He always was, and always will be. He's an infinite quantity.

This is why I don't understand why people have religious beliefs at all. You're trying to say that all matter exists because it was created by someone. But as to where the someone came from, well, he 'just exists'. Why not just say that all matter 'just exists'? The God part just seems to be an unnecessary layer of confusion. What benefit is there in that?

I'm not having a go, but I really don't understand what a lot of religious people get out of it. How does believing in something that will never be proved actually enrich their lives? Materially? Or does just believing in something make you happy? I don't understand why so much time and effort is put into deciding (and arguing) why and how everything exists, when we should probably just be happy that it does.

Anyway, if we're talking the whole universe here, (which I guess we must be unless we are back to believing that nothing exists above the sky) then to be honest we humans are such an unbelievably small dot that who cares what is stirring in our tiny minds?

Want to see how small? -

Major Scale

[Spoonie]

believing that you're part of some greater design gives you the comfort of knowing that in some small way, your life has a significance, even if it's to a deity who you cannot see but who you firmly believe to exist. in my experience, the people who believe and are comfortable with their beliefs are not the ones who spend oodles and oodles of time arguing over it. it is the 'athiests' who spend their time tearing strips off people on the internet.

/x

[Addi]

I'm not having a go, but I really don't understand what a lot of religious people get out of it. How does believing in something that will never be proved actually enrich their lives?

Go watch the episode of south park about mormons.

[GraemeC]

He doesn't need a reason, He's God. He can do what He wants. Maybe God realised that telling Moses that we all evolved from apes would lead to the Hebrews finding someone else to lead them out of Egypt.

Or possibly moses made it all up to look big and clever

There's a lot of religious people that would shake their heads sadly at someone like you being fooled by simple magic tricks and gobbledegook from people who call themselves "scientists", and hope that one day God will open your eyes in the same way He opened theirs.

Or....the scientists could all be making their claims based on sound proveable facts...o_O

It's untrue to say that each generation adapts and modifies the content and message of the Bible. It is continually being put into new and more modern language is due to the fact religious teaching is now carried out in native, rather than classical tongues.

Or it could be a lot of horseshit that gives lots of people lots of power and earns lots of people lots of money

Well, who wrote those laws?

Hmmmm...let me think...I know...scientists!!

God wasn't made. He always was, and always will be. He's an infinite quantity.

Is that a fact...?

Who else was going to do it?

we may never know

He lived in the beginning. It's right there in the first line of the first chapter of the Bible. As for what He did before, there is no before in the beginning.

And back to square one.... the bible is a story book, I no more believe that than I do "The hitch hikers guide to the galaxy"

[GraemeC]

believing that you're part of some greater design gives you the comfort of knowing that in some small way, your life has a significance, even if it's to a deity who you cannot see but who you firmly believe to exist. in my experience, the people who believe and are comfortable with their beliefs are not the ones who spend oodles and oodles of time arguing over it. it is the 'athiests' who spend their time tearing strips off people on the internet.

/x

I see what you are saying and there have been moments in my life where I really wished I had faith, but its all blown out of the water for me when you get religions that compell their believers to ram it down other peoples throat and others who brainwash you into believing that if you dont attend their church on a regular basis you're destined to go to hell, and another that states that if you dont believe in their particular god or no god at all then you deserve to be dead....

[Afro Droid]

To me, religion is a societal reflex, and God is simply collective human consciousness. I don't believe in the power of God, I believe in the power of Man (by this I mean, the human race, before the feminists have at me). Man's capacity for good and evil are infinite. Now before someone asks how good and evil are defned without religion, all religious texts are fundamentally the same - don't kill each other, don't steal, don't fuck everythng that that moves with wild abandon, just be cool to each other (as Bill and Ted said!) - It's that collective human consciousness that gave us our moral barometer at the start of civilisation.

Given that most religious texts say the same things, our prophets/holy figures/messiahs were simply great men and women who had good ideas about how we should live our lives. Everything else is up to interpretation and corruption by people who would use these guidelines to their own ends. Not a single religious text states that you sdhould kill people who hold different beliefs. I believe a man called Jesus existed, I just don't think he was the son of God. Man is his own God.

[scottyboy]

i never sang anything in class assembly... mimed a bit at a push.

@ Addi. i agreed with your point that ALL science and religion (or Christianity, rather, as that's what you refer to) are in conflict. i was specifically talking about the creation myth (as was graeme c). since you haven't even mentioned that, i'll take it you agree that christian fundamentalism is somewhat at odds with the idea we evolved from apes.

i think of the same thing you do when you think of god (ok 1st thing i think of is a guy that looks like gandalf, only bigger, but i can get past that). the difference is i find it to be a ridiculous idea; the concept that we were created by a supreme being, to me, pretty much ammounts to 'a wizard did it' and is slightly less credible than the idea that human beings were created by aliens.

as for the bible, i agree with graeme c that it's simply fiction. there's other crap (for example anything by bede) which does the same thing, i.e. ludicrious miracle stories with the intent of making their subjects appear more than ordinary humans.

finally @ spoonie, your exactly right. religion (not just christianity) is largely about humans inventing stuff to try and explain things they don't understand and to assure themselves they're going to do something more than rot in the ground after they die. if it makes people feel any better, go for it i guess.