"promotion"

[Cloud]

Okay, I'm going to throw something else out here.

Let's say that a promoter starts giving "a fair deal" to bands by paying them what the Musicians Union states should be the minimum - which is 53.

Would people be willing to pay extra on the door to cover the costs of paying everyone fairly? Considering there's always a lot of complaining done about door prices, would the increase not effectively render gigs empty for the sake of a "fair deal"?

[Jim Stax]

Okay' date=' I'm going to throw something else out here.

Let's say that a promoter starts giving "a fair deal" to bands by paying them what the Musicians Union states should be the minimum - which is 53.

Would people be willing to pay extra on the door to cover the costs of paying everyone fairly? Considering there's always a lot of complaining done about door prices, would the increase not effectively render gigs empty for the sake of a "fair deal"?[/quote']

Can you please explain to me why you are asking these questions and also why you are interested? I am at pains to understand the concept behind this thread, sorry... I wanted to answer with something relavant but realised I couldn't really understand what the thread was about...

'Should promoters pay bands more to entertain the public who have now been given money to go to the gig which they have to give back at the end of the night providing the bands played more than a half hour of music they have never rehearsed and all this in a venue made from out of date posters and set lists...'

This about right?

My opinion is that bands should play for food, especialy fruit, and for no less than two hours!

PS

Most promoters give a 'fair deal'! Not always as good as the band or promoter would wish it to be but fair none the less!

[Flash@TMB]

Okay' date=' I'm going to throw something else out here.

Let's say that a promoter starts giving "a fair deal" to bands by paying them what the Musicians Union states should be the minimum - which is 53.

Would people be willing to pay extra on the door to cover the costs of paying everyone fairly? Considering there's always a lot of complaining done about door prices, would the increase not effectively render gigs empty for the sake of a "fair deal"?[/quote']

The musicians union is just that - a union. Doubtless the burger bar union thinks that it's members deserve to be paid 9 per hour (and quite frankly I wouldn't argue). But they aren't, because unions don't dictate the rates of pay, market forces do. And the sad fact is that at present market forces dictate that more people are willing to pay more to see someone impersonate Freddie Mercury to a backing track, that to hear a band perform good, original material.

So the promoter performs a balancing act, of compromise where they attempt to maximise what people are willing to pay, traded off against getting the maximum number of people to attend, traded off against paying everyone, including themslef, as much as possible. Which is all dictated by market forces. The promoter must be adept at surfing these market forces.

That's it in a nutshell.

Can we kill this thread now?

[Hog]

Being in a band costs you money unless you have a decent record contract. 5 is a pisstake though. That pays for a pack of strings. It is just nice to get a little bit of money to help pay for basics.

[megatron]

my 10 pence worth having never experienced the aberdeen music scene and only the (rather poor but developing) centralscene (www.centralscene.co.uk) i was quite surprised that people think

1. that local bands shouldn't do their own promotion

and 2.that they expect to be paid for every gig

with my last band not only did we have to do our own promotion but also we played for free! admittedly we wern't superstars or anything near but when we worked for a gig we managed to pull some hefty crowds ie. people watching through the windows because they couldn't get in. i'm not saying this to blow my own trumpet but to point out that we weren't bothered that we weren't getting paid but that we had a large group of people who then went on to tell friends how good we were or weren't so that we could generate a fan base and then make profits from cd sales because people wanted to hear our music at home as well as at gigs

[GraemeC]

Ok here's my tuppence worth, there are bands like Fubar and The Bash Street Kids who go out every weekend entertain a bar full of punters and get paid 200-300 for it, there is normally no door charge and the band is paid out of the bar takings. Then there are the touring bands who are a lottery, not enough people have heard of them to attract a crowd so promoters book local talent with lots of friends or a wee following to boost the numbers, this can help offset the losses or sometimes push the gig into profit and the local band get a small amount of cash for their effort everyone is happy.....well not everyone, sometimes its a bit of a pain when the local band plays to 200+ punters and then the "headliners" play to 6 people but walk off with 600 while the band who pulled in the crowd gets 50....hardly fair, but hey, they got to play to a big crowd....that they attracted.

G...

[HummerOfIntenseEvil]

I'd rather get paid nothing than 5 I think. Although we just shove all our money into a band kitty anyway to pay for various band thingies.

It would be "nice" to get paid at least enough to cover any travelling costs you had, but in saying that you should find out how much you're getting paid before you even agree to the gig, and if it's nothing and you're not happy with that, then don't fucking do the gig!

As for local gigs, well I was pleasantly surprised when the guy in Tunnells handed me 50 for our gig last month. Money was the last thing on our minds I think, it was purely a bonus. I'd like to think any other local bands that at the very least say they're in it for "the music maaaan" would feel the same.

I don't think a band really has the right to demand payment until they're at the stage where people will come from outside their home town to see them, ie their fanbase is more than family & friends & aquaintences. Otherwise payment should just be a pleasant upshot of managing to fill the place.

Saying that Herr Cloud, if you ever get us a gig and hand us 5 at the end of the night, I'll get Gary (yes THAT one) to give you a smack

[soundian]

you should find out how much you're getting paid before you even agree to the gig' date=' and if it's nothing and you're not happy with that, then don't fucking do the gig!

[/quote']

The most sensible thing said on this thread so far.

Contracts people, if someone breaks a contract you can sue them, if someone gives you a fiver when you expected 40 but don't have a contract, go whistle.

[delboy]

ian christie - the voice of wisdom

[beeker]

if it's something you enjoy doing - and its not your livelihood, why bitch about being paid or not.

If i entertain some peoples and give thema good night i'm more than happy with the payment in cheers!

still, a JD and coke would be appreciated..

[ray@ladymercedes]

Simple solution. Don't play gigs in Aberdeen - cos it's a shit hole, promote your own fucking band.

I know that all you cunts hate Lady Mercedes, but we've never relied on promoters to do anything for us with the exception of one gig at Moshulu, which was too good an opportunity to turn down even if we were obviously all over the place and clearly not ready for that gig. We've booked and promoted hundreds of gigs around Scotland through travelling hundreds of miles to meet people. Why should it be different for everyone else.

It appears that too many people take promoters for granted. If you aint happy then cut out the middle man.

[soundian]

Simple solution. Don't play gigs in Aberdeen - cos it's a shit hole' date=' promote your own fucking band.

I know that all you cunts hate Lady Mercedes, but we've never relied on promoters to do anything for us. We've booked and promoted hundreds of gigs around Scotland through travelling hundreds of miles to meet people. Why should it be different for everyone else.

It appears that too many people take promoters for granted. If you aint happy then cut out the middle man.[/quote']

Do you do all the local advertising (posters/flyers/press), take the door money and arrange the supports for all these gigs?

If not, you're still using a promoter, the person who gives you the cash at the end of the night.

[ray@ladymercedes]

Do you do all the local advertising (posters/flyers/press)' date=' take the door money and arrange the supports for all these gigs?

If not, you're still using a promoter, the person who gives you the cash at the end of the night.[/quote']

Outwith Aberdeen, yes we did. Myself and our ex-manager worked our balls off doing posters, making sure everyone paid to get in and pay the support acts on many occasions, except for the Fat Hippy tour - which we booked at least 50% of the gigs which then Tom got gigs at these places for other Fat Hippy bands.

[soundian]

Outwith Aberdeen' date=' yes we did. Myself and our ex-manager worked our balls off doing posters, making sure everyone paid to get in and pay the support acts on many occasions, except for the Fat Hippy tour - which we booked at least 50% of the gigs which then Tom got gigs at these places for other Fat Hippy bands.[/quote']

You must have had to work your balls off to do that. Respect.

[Flash@TMB]

Ok here's my tuppence worth' date=' there are bands like Fubar and The Bash Street Kids who go out every weekend entertain a bar full of punters and get paid 200-300 for it, there is normally no door charge and the band is paid out of the bar takings. [/quote']

I agree with what you said, but would like to elaborate fees you have quoted. These bands are typically paid between 100 and 300, though the bigger your bar, the more they charge. And God forbid you book them for a private function such as a wedding then you can expect to pay double that.

Many moons back I posted how this adds up, but here's a quick summary:

Firstly these bands do attract a certain type of following. Although it's not really a ren-a-crowd it's not dissimilar. These people are usually quite heavy drinkers, and more importantly they buy a lot of nips where the markup tends to be greater.

But what a bar is willing to pay will depend on how big the bar is, and how much they tale over the bar. This WILL be agreed in advance though. For example most covers bands used to charge us 50 per band member, thus 150 for a 3 piece, 200 for a 4 piece. Although there was one 5 piece that sacked a member and still tried to charge 250!

Now for the financials. A bar with a cacpity of 100 people can expect to take around 500-1000 net of VAT over the bar (during the performance) depending on the act. Out of that they have to cover the cost of their stock, which is usually 50% of that. So they make a gross profit 250-500. But they'd need to pay at least 3 barstaff, which assuming minimum wage would equate to 75, reducing the profit down to 175-425. Also they'd have to factor in various minor costs such as share of insurance, heat, light, power, rates, rent, and breakages because these crowds break a lot of glasses. So let's assume another 40 at least. Thus we arrive at a profit of between 135-385... with the band still to pay. Now it is EXTREMELY likely that the band that charges 300 will be the ones that net the most bar sales, and the bar that charges 100 nets the least. So typicall a bar would expect to make 35-85 from such an ordeal. Whoopie ding dong! Which is why such places are folding like cheap deck chairs. See the problem is that this is on a good day. We had instances where we took 500 net over the bar and were forced to pay the band 212, which boiled down to a loss of 77. Charming!

[GraemeC]

I agree with what you said' date=' but would like to elaborate fees you have quoted. These bands are typically paid between 100 and 300, though the bigger your bar, the more they charge. And God forbid you book them for a private function such as a wedding then you can expect to pay double that.

Many moons back I posted how this adds up, but here's a quick summary:

Firstly these bands do attract a certain type of following. Although it's not really a ren-a-crowd it's not dissimilar. These people are usually quite heavy drinkers, and more importantly they buy a lot of nips where the markup tends to be greater.

But what a bar is willing to pay will depend on how big the bar is, and how much they tale over the bar. This WILL be agreed in advance though. For example most covers bands used to charge us 50 per band member, thus 150 for a 3 piece, 200 for a 4 piece. Although there was one 5 piece that sacked a member and still tried to charge 250!

Now for the financials. A bar with a cacpity of 100 people can expect to take around 500-1000 net of VAT over the bar (during the performance) depending on the act. Out of that they have to cover the cost of their stock, which is usually 50% of that. So they make a gross profit 250-500. But they'd need to pay at least 3 barstaff, which assuming minimum wage would equate to 75, reducing the profit down to 175-425. Also they'd have to factor in various minor costs such as share of insurance, heat, light, power, rates, rent, and breakages because these crowds break a lot of glasses. So let's assume another 40 at least. Thus we arrive at a profit of between 135-385... with the band still to pay. Now it is EXTREMELY likely that the band that charges 300 will be the ones that net the most bar sales, and the bar that charges 100 nets the least. So typicall a bar would expect to make 35-85 from such an ordeal. Whoopie ding dong! Which is why such places are folding like cheap deck chairs. See the problem is that this is on a good day. We had instances where we took 500 net over the bar and were forced to pay the band 212, which boiled down to a loss of 77. Charming![/quote']

I suspect flash that you throw up these financial excuses as a smoke screen to disguise the fact you are a covers band snob , the moorings survived quite happily for many years on the strength of good beer good banter and a good jukebox so the whole live music thing is an expensive but personal indulgence for which many are eternaly greatful. The fact is though that there is still a huge demand for good covers bands and there are not enough to go round.

The point I was really making is, the demand for good local bands playing original material is quite low and any audience comes from a market that has either very limited ammounts of cash to spend on drink or are too young to do so, i'm sure you will agree that when bands come along that attract a large, slightly older audience its a god send for promoters and bar owners alike .

G...

[Flash@TMB]

I suspect flash that you throw up these financial excuses as a smoke screen to disguise the fact you are a covers band snob ' date=' the moorings survived quite happily for many years on the strength of good beer good banter and a good jukebox so the whole live music thing is an expensive but personal indulgence for which many are eternaly greatful. The fact is though that there is still a huge demand for good covers bands and there are not enough to go round.

The point I was really making is, the demand for good local bands playing original material is quite low and any audience comes from a market that has either very limited ammounts of cash to spend on drink or are too young to do so, i'm sure you will agree that when bands come along that attract a large, slightly older audience its a god send for promoters and bar owners alike .

G...[/quote']

I was not having a go at you.

When we took over the bar there were a years worth of covers bookings that we honoured. This was despite continually losing money throughout that entire period. We even included covers bands in year 2 but much less frequently. Those losses were not due to the quality of the beer - one of the first things we undertook was a complete cellar refurbishment. Neither were they due to the jukebox which went largely unchanged. And I'd also take issue with the banter front. It's not hard to banter with all 7 customers at 11pm on a Friday night - how things were when we took over. Since discontinuing covers bands in favour of original music our turnover has almost trebled! The bar now produces profits which contribute towards our on-going programme of improvements. For the record, the wages of our barstaff have almost doubled So I suspect that you are missreading the market. Either that or Drummonds, Moshulu, The Tunnels and The Moorings are all undergoing some strange group delusion!

The other problem with covers band followers is that the vast majority tend only to visit the bar to see their fave band, and not the rest of the time. Hence some classic takings scores in 2002 like 120 for a whole Tuesday, and 400 for a whole Friday ouch LMAO! Oh and those were regular occurances!

However I suspect that this cultural shift towards original music has only occured during the past 10 years.

Now you could claim that this is just me, and that I'm ugly, or smell, or am in some way exceedingly dislikable... but our turnover during 2002 were on par with the previous owners final books. So he was suffering just as badly. Furthermore we were regular attendees of the bar circa 1990-2001 (longer in Laura's case) so it's not really fair to accuse me of being anti that scene. Although I must confess that the grasping mentality of certain bands and band members has somewhat clouded my opinion... As did the unpleasentness of certain crowds when not viewed through the safety of beer glasses.

We no longer let underagers attend out gigs BTW unless by prior agreement. Since introducing this change of policy during the last month our attendances have reduced but our takings have increased. There is a viable legal drinking market for original music. Consider that the people who were 14&15 in 2002 are now 18! They get older every year.

[GraemeC]

I was not having a go at you.

When we took over the bar there were a years worth of covers bookings that we honoured. This was despite continually losing money throughout that entire period. We even included covers bands in year 2 but much less frequently. Those losses were not due to the quality of the beer - one of the first things we undertook was a complete cellar refurbishment. Neither were they due to the jukebox which went largely unchanged. And I'd also take issue with the banter front. It's not hard to banter with all 7 customers at 11pm on a Friday night - how things were when we took over. Since discontinuing covers bands in favour of original music our turnover has almost trebled! The bar now produces profits which contribute towards our on-going programme of improvements. For the record' date=' the wages of our barstaff have almost doubled So I suspect that you are missreading the market. Either that or Drummonds, Moshulu, The Tunnels and The Moorings are all undergoing some strange group delusion!

The other problem with covers band followers is that the vast majority tend only to visit the bar to see their fave band, and not the rest of the time. Hence some classic takings scores in 2002 like 120 for a whole Tuesday, and 400 for a whole Friday ouch LMAO! Oh and those were regular occurances!

However I suspect that this cultural shift towards original music has only occured during the past 10 years.

Now you could claim that this is just me, and that I'm ugly, or smell, or am in some way exceedingly dislikable... but our turnover during 2002 were on par with the previous owners final books. So he was suffering just as badly. Furthermore we were regular attendees of the bar circa 1990-2001 (longer in Laura's case) so it's not really fair to accuse me of being anti that scene. Although I must confess that the grasping mentality of certain bands and band members has somewhat clouded my opinion... As did the unpleasentness of certain crowds when not viewed through the safety of beer glasses.

We no longer let underagers attend out gigs BTW unless by prior agreement. Since introducing this change of policy during the last month our attendances have reduced but our takings have increased. There is a viable legal drinking market for original music. Consider that the people who were 14&15 in 2002 are now 18! They get older every year.[/quote']

You seem to have read a fantastic ammount between the lines of my last post, read it again but this time just the words written and nothing more. There was nothing in your post for me to take personally and I am probably looking at the moorings history from a somewhat different perspective than you.....1971-1990

I also feel that the decline in popularity of the moorings over the years was more complex than the content of the juke box. My parents used to be horrified at the thought of me going to "such a place" and I was perfectly happy to let them believe it was some dangerous seedy dive full of whores and drug dealers even though that was far from the truth, although some nights the smell of exotic cigarettes was quite strong.

I feel you also see me as some kind of defender of covers bands which is about as far from the truth as you could get.

Ive still not got round to tasting the delights of your deluxe rum and imported beers....I will get round to it.

G...

[malloty]

the new most hated band, Girl Said No

Simple solution. Don't play gigs in Aberdeen - cos it's a shit hole' date=' promote your own fucking band.

I know that all you cunts hate Lady Mercedes, but we've never relied on promoters to do anything for us with the exception of one gig at Moshulu, which was too good an opportunity to turn down even if we were obviously all over the place and clearly not ready for that gig. We've booked and promoted hundreds of gigs around Scotland through travelling hundreds of miles to meet people. Why should it be different for everyone else.

It appears that too many people take promoters for granted. If you aint happy then cut out the middle man.[/quote']

as the new most hated band i have to agree with him. seems to be a lot of moaning about no help from promoters etc. if you want t have a packed gig get out and promote it yourself.

Girl Said No always promote every headline gig ourselves whether it be Glasgow, thurso, inverness or the lemon tree in aberdeen. we book our own gigs and make sure we have a crowd.

whether it be building up your database by any means necessary, flyering, postering, hassling the radio for months to get on and get to play / give away tickets.

the only way to make decent money gigging is to take a share of the ticket sales and then make sure you sell them out.

As with Lady Mercedes everyone knows who Girl Said No are and though most of the comments are negative on this site the fact that both bands are talked about shows that the promotion done was right and people know who the bands are , talk about them and thus promote them further.

the only way to get a crowd and make money is to get off your ass and get your name out there, if you leave it to a promoter

a. all they do is stick up a couple of posters round the venue

b. they wont book you again as you dont bring a crowd

[soundian]

the only way to get a crowd and make money is to get off your ass and get your name out there

Listen to the man!

Up to 9 bands now, this breakneck pace is killing me.

[RF Scott]

as the new most hated band i have to agree with him. seems to be a lot of moaning about no help from promoters etc. if you want t have a packed gig get out and promote it yourself.

Girl Said No always promote every headline gig ourselves whether it be Glasgow' date=' thurso, inverness or the lemon tree in aberdeen. we book our own gigs and make sure we have a crowd.

whether it be building up your database by any means necessary, flyering, postering, hassling the radio for months to get on and get to play / give away tickets.

the only way to make decent money gigging is to take a share of the ticket sales and then make sure you sell them out.

As with Lady Mercedes everyone knows who Girl Said No are and though most of the comments are negative on this site the fact that both bands are talked about shows that the promotion done was right and people know who the bands are , talk about them and thus promote them further.

the only way to get a crowd and make money is to get off your ass and get your name out there, if you leave it to a promoter

a. all they do is stick up a couple of posters round the venue

b. they wont book you again as you dont bring a crowd[/quote']

Everyone knows who your band are? Crikey.

[jester1470]

Everyone knows who your band are? Crikey.

GSN are the 'hottest' band in Aberdeen and with regards to Free at the Dee: "GSn went on stage, Stole the show", if you dont know them then you know nothing !!!

Shocking !! the youth of today !!

Cheers

Stuart

[ray@ladymercedes]

I wasn't there but I heard GSN on the radio. Not my thing at all but I was very impressed. Did I hear right that you guys are on the verge of big things? If so, good luck to you and don't look back cos you won't be missing fuck all in the deen.

[malloty]

I wasn't there but I heard GSN on the radio. Not my thing at all but I was very impressed. Did I hear right that you guys are on the verge of big things? If so' date=' good luck to you and don't look back cos you won't be missing fuck all in the deen.[/quote']

Cheers man, good to hear some positive comments on this site. As you will know from experience the only thing guaranteed in Aberdeen is that as soon as you do well someone will take offence to what you do!!

got your last cd, it was quality

[malloty]

Stalker Alert

GSN are the 'hottest' band in Aberdeen and with regards to Free at the Dee: "GSn went on stage' date=' Stole the show", if you dont know them then you know nothing !!!

Shocking !! the youth of today !!

Cheers

Stuart[/quote']

Your dedication to slagging Girl Said No off is tremendous and i have warned the band to watch out for a stalker with a grudge!!

i can only guess as to how we upset you - maybe slept with your girlfriend/laughed at you in gym class/stole your lunch money or maybe you really like the band and feel guilty about it

Anyway keep it up as it always brings a smile, but i suppose thats what jesters do!!