Christian Bands?

[steve corps]

you also cant compare roxette to aha.

why are you starting all this trouble dave?

[Guest allsystemsfail]

I see you now resort to pendantry' date=' the refuge when arguement fails. Yes I do recall Homage to Catalonia, and yes for a time it enjoyed anarchy, but where is it now?

All sophisticated civilised societies inevitably end up with some form of government. As you yourself stated, wrong doers will be dealt with. How would this be done? By some kind of tribunual perhaps? Once you begin to regulate the way people behave, you are a governent. Once you provide any kind of service you are a government.

Anarchy is a pipe dream and if you were capable of deep and logical thinking you would see this.[/quote']

A little rattled are we? That final comment rather contradicts what you said about me just a few weeks ago regarding the discussion bout the NF. I forget the words, but a more glowing tribute you couldn't find.

What we saw in Spain if we look, did not fail, but was crushed by Franco's fascists. Your arguement has no real basis. You're really gonna have to do better than this.

Yes, wrong doers will be dealt with, but by the community as a whole, not by a higher authority, a form of government. Any action taken, and this applies to general matters important to the community too, will be discussed in assemblies where all views are considered.

[steve corps]

can the wrong doers be put to death? i'd burn the bastards eyes out first with hot pokers and make then drink brasso.

[lepeep]

Yes' date=' wrong doers will be dealt with, but by the community as a whole, not by a higher authority, a form of government. Any action taken, and this applies to the general function of the community too, will be discussed in assemblies, where all views are considered.[/quote']

now all we need is millions of like minded people, who don't want to be "more equal than others"....aye, like the boy said, a pipe dream

[Guest allsystemsfail]

now all we need is millions of like minded people' date=' who don't want to be "more equal than others"....aye, like the boy said, a pipe dream[/quote']

I agree, that if such change were to occur, it would first need a massive mindshift on the part of many. However, what is the alternative? That we do nothing? That we just accept things as they are? I didn't say it was gonna be easy.

Things HAVE moved somewhat. Take the anti-capitalist movement for instance - a massive groundswell of dissatisfaction spread across the globe. And what of the Zapatistas? Of their example?

[Demon Of The Fall]

Religion does not corrupt anything or anybody. It is people (like George Bush and extremists) who corrupt religion and turn on it's head and misapply it and hatred and war and suffering out of it. This sort of thing does not make the beliefs of the ordinary practicing christian or practicing person of any faith invalid. And Ross how can you possibly say that religion is nothing but destructive?!? The many christian charitable organisations who feed and cloth the poor and needy cos their religion teaches them to do so are purely destructive in their deeds are they??? Buddhists who refuse to commit acts of violence are acting in a purely destructive manner are they??? I hope once you read this you swallow your pride and submit that what you said was incomprehensibley stupid and ignorant. And don't go and say that i have no right to make such a comment. What you said about religion being purely destructive was loud and clear and made public. And don't tell me that these many people you know are always wrong in not doing something because it's a sin and they'll go to hell (which any good christian knows is not the proper reason for not doing something (the proper reason that it will make the world a less pleasant place for everyone (quite a utilitarian attitude really))). An example would be that i as a Catholic would refuse to murder an innocent person on the basis that my religion teaches me that i have no right to deprive any human being of their life and it would create great suffering and grief to those who remain alive. Surely life would be much more like hell if i did commit such an act. And again is this christian moral purely destructive?

I have already sent you an e-mail regarding this and I think I made my point clear. I have nothing more to say accept I want to publicly show that I wont stand by and let a little argumentative fucker call me ignorant

As I said in the e-mail, grow up Neil

[Larsen B]

You received my e-mail and though an argumentative (i'm not a fucker i've never fucked in my life) it's not personal. You as part of the non-religious majority of this country are ignorant of religion and need to be enlightened about what the different religions are all about. And you've shown in your reply on this thread that you don't care about whether what you said about religion being purely destructive is wrong or right you only care about your pride and not being called ignorant. I'd hoped you would have learned something from this thread.

[lepeep]

I agree' date=' that if such change were to occur, it would first need a massive mindshift on the part of many. However, what is the alternative? That we do nothing? That we just accept things as they are? I didn't say it was gonna be easy.

Things HAVE moved somewhat. Take the anti-capitalist movement for instance - a massive groundswell of dissatisfaction spread across the globe. And what of the Zapatistas? Of their example?[/quote']

I also have a "want" that the people of the world would be less selfsh, less greedy, but what you are suggesting is, some form of "collective organisation" that will make people think the way you do....sounds like a plan...oh, hold on, that's a "government" ... a body of people who make change.

this is honestly never going to happen because it's in peoples nature to look out for number one, and "being an anarchist" is "looking out for number one", problem is, most people can't interact with other people in the way you'd like to see them act, as they "look out for number one".

you want an answer ? move to an island on the west coast, get leopard spot tattoos and live happy.

me, I try and be the individual I am, but understand that paying my taxes might just help someone in hospital (badly administrated though they are) etc...

you are right, it's all about taking control of you r own life, but on different levels, I feel...council tax...I hate paying it, but , If none of us did, where would our rubbish go ? (I recycle about 90% of my waste, I have 2 compost bins, one for cooked, one for raw veg), but I still have some waste I can't get rid of...who'll do that in your anarcho world of peace and harmony ? ( I know, you've got all the solutions, so don't bother, there are millions of other reasons...but it'll take far to long for us to ignore each other before the thread dies!)...

peep

[NARC]

I agree' date=' that if such change were to occur, it would first need a massive mindshift on the part of many. However, what is the alternative? That we do nothing? That we just accept things as they are? I didn't say it was gonna be easy.

Things HAVE moved somewhat. Take the anti-capitalist movement for instance - a massive groundswell of dissatisfaction spread across the globe. And what of the Zapatistas? Of their example?[/quote']

Yes the zapatistas are a great example of standing up to such oppression, but im sorry to say what have they achieved? international awareness unfortunately does not equate with real success. They are being forced further back into inequal landshare. Anarchism would not solve the problem either.

[Skull Commander]

Christian messages in bands is ok as long as it does not overshadow everything else. The same can be said when a band uses too much sex/satanism etc.

As for punk, why not christian punk?? Punk is meant to be about being an induvidual and doing things your own way, not by sticking to some outdated idea that all punks must create chaos and be 'into' anarchy.

[Guest allsystemsfail]

You received my e-mail and though an argumentative (i'm not a fucker i've never fucked in my life) it's not personal. You as part of the non-religious majority of this country are ignorant of religion and need to be enlightened about what the different religions are all about. And you've shown in your reply on this thread that you don't care about whether what you said about religion being purely destructive is wrong or right you only care about your pride and not being called ignorant. I'd hoped you would have learned something from this thread.

Ah, so you are a man with a mission - here to enlighten the poor ignorant schmucks such as myself. Shit, and folks call me arrogant.

[NARC]

Yes' date=' wrong doers will be dealt with, but by the community as a whole, not by a higher authority, a form of government. Any action taken, and this applies to general matters important to the community too, will be discussed in assemblies where all views are considered.[/quote']

What you would are referring to is actually a form of government, by the people, for the people. Thus what you are advocating is true democracy; government on a national scale. Plus these assemblies would never work; parliament's point is for elected representatives of regional constituencies to represent their constituents. Try accomodating everyone?

[Guest allsystemsfail]

Yes the zapatistas are a great example of standing up to such oppression' date=' but im sorry to say what have they achieved? international awareness unfortunately does not equate with real success. They are being forced further back into inequal landshare. Anarchism would not solve the problem either.[/quote']

What they have achieved is incredible. Rising in opposition to global capital, they have taken back control of their own lives, thrown off the shackles of oppression. International links have been forged, activists coming together across the world inspired by their example. Did you catch the talk at Uni last week? A speaker from Edinburgh Chiapas Solidarity made a quite brilliant presentation.

Anarchism? The Zapatistas organise themselves along just these lines.

[Guest allsystemsfail]

Christian messages in bands is ok as long as it does not overshadow everything else. The same can be said when a band uses too much sex/satanism etc.

As for punk' date=' why not christian punk?? Punk is meant to be about being an induvidual and doing things your own way, not by sticking to some outdated idea that all punks must create chaos and be 'into' anarchy.[/quote']

I already addressed this.

And create chaos? *shakes head*

[Guest allsystemsfail]

?c<caron>,emon Cleaner]What you would are referring to is actually a form of government, by the people, for the people. Thus what you are advocating is true democracy; government on a national scale. Plus these assemblies would never work; parliament's point is for elected representatives of regional constituencies to represent their constituents. Try accomodating everyone?

[Guest allsystemsfail]

I also have a "want" that the people of the world would be less selfsh' date=' less greedy, but what you are suggesting is, some form of "collective organisation" that will make people think the way you do....sounds like a plan...oh, hold on, that's a "government" ... a body of people who make change.

this is honestly never going to happen because it's in peoples nature to look out for number one, and "being an anarchist" is "looking out for number one", problem is, most people can't interact with other people in the way you'd like to see them act, as they "look out for number one".

you want an answer ? move to an island on the west coast, get leopard spot tattoos and live happy.

me, I try and be the individual I am, but understand that paying my taxes might just help someone in hospital (badly administrated though they are) etc...

you are right, it's all about taking control of you r own life, but on different levels, I feel...council tax...I hate paying it, but , If none of us did, where would our rubbish go ? (I recycle about 90% of my waste, I have 2 compost bins, one for cooked, one for raw veg), but I still have some waste I can't get rid of...who'll do that in your anarcho world of peace and harmony ? ( I know, you've got all the solutions, so don't bother, there are millions of other reasons...but it'll take far to long for us to ignore each other before the thread dies!)...

peep[/quote']

I already addressed these very questions. Go look at what I said regarding motivation.

And being an anarchist means looking out for number one? How'd you figure that?

[GraemeC]

Anarchy will never happen......

Why...?

It would require the entire population of the world to embrace the same ideology all at the same time....

Can anyone see that happen?

[framheim]

i don't think you can claim that the anarchists were merely crushed by franco's fascists, the spanish civil war was alot more complicated than that and indeed the anarchists weren't entirely blameless for their own destruction there either. however what they had acheived in the way of cooperative farming was highly impressive. but this isn't a thread about the spanish civil war, and i also can't really claim to be an authority on the subject.

i think phil(alkaline) has a pretty sound view in all this. in this day and age i believe that religion can be entirely subjective. why not look at different religions and pick out the bits that work for you? being christian these days doesn't have to mean going to church and repenting all sins, surely it can just mean being thoughtfull and compassionate. i wouldn't really say i'm a practicing christian but there's certain aspects about the christian faith that are very commendable and obviously there are aspects that are reprehensible(the continuing discrimination against other religions and sexualities) but i believe most people are genuinely good and it is only the few who spoil it for everyone else.

i guess it's better to have faith in people and yourself rather than any deity or system that may or may not have existed/worked. pick out the bits of anrachism, communism, conservatism, islam, christianity, hinduism, buddhism and any other religion/political system you want and do what feels right for yourself and that you belief is best for dealing with those around you. i think the main problem is that not enough people even stop to think about stuff like this, they just go: "ach fuck all that religion shite" cause it's uncool and i guess it reminds people of being forced into going to sunday school or whatever but surely nothing can be discounted until it's at least been considered. make up your own minds and do what you're most comfortable with.

i honestly belief that if you sat anyone on their own with no outside influences and asked them to think(and genuinely think, not just mildly consider) how they like to be treated by folks around them and by people they meet, what they think causes problems on a large scale for human society, and what they really need and want from life then most people would show themselves to be caring and compassionate people. that is of course an idealist point of view and a fairly unlikely scenario but it's nice to think that it might happen one day(everyone becoming caring and compassionate, not just everyone sitting on their own) and it would probably still create problems but hopefully those problems wouldn't be sorted with bombing campaigns.

[framheim]

with regards to christian bands i think the lyrics have to matter because it's part of the art form as a whole unless they're there purely for melodic value. but if a band is christian and has lyrics dealing with holy redemption and His undying love then i'd tend to shy away from them but if they're openly christian and sing about general christian values then i can dig that, most of these bands are shit though

people like jeff buckley are different as i think he used christian imagery in his lyrics more for effect and to convey certain emotions much like leonard cohen did in hallelujah(a song that seems to me to be about love and things that bring joy in general rather than love for god), but that's just my interpretation. plus he's a million times better than anyone that's ever mentioned when talking about 'christian' bands/artists.

[lepeep]

damien rice also does some nice songs, with "g" references in them, as does Bonny Prince Billy.

[lepeep]

I already addressed these very questions. Go look at what I said regarding motivation.

And being an anarchist means looking out for number one? How'd you figure that?

I did...and I think the nearest thing I got to the answer was "people will get together and do it..."

or was it in another post smoewhere down the line ? (in another thread?)

Anarchists (of which I am one) ask that people take control of their own lives

That to me means "look out for number one", if it doesn't, it's contradicotry, as how can you "take control of your own life" by looking after others ?..unless it's like "look after your business, that also involves other people in your everyday life" (how can that be done if no rules / laws are to be taken notice of ?)

anyway, as Big G said, everyone would have to think the same for all this to work, fuck me, that's NEVER going to happen, especially with such a stupid race as the "human" race.

[Guest allsystemsfail]

i don't think you can claim that the anarchists were merely crushed by franco's fascists' date=' the spanish civil war was alot more complicated than that and indeed the anarchists weren't entirely blameless for their own destruction there either. however what they had acheived in the way of cooperative farming was highly impressive. but this isn't a thread about the spanish civil war, and i also can't really claim to be an authority on the subject.

i think phil(alkaline) has a pretty sound view in all this. in this day and age i believe that religion can be entirely subjective. why not look at different religions and pick out the bits that work for you? being christian these days doesn't have to mean going to church and repenting all sins, surely it can just mean being thoughtfull and compassionate. i wouldn't really say i'm a practicing christian but there's certain aspects about the christian faith that are very commendable and obviously there are aspects that are reprehensible(the continuing discrimination against other religions and sexualities) but i believe most people are genuinely good and it is only the few who spoil it for everyone else.

i guess it's better to have faith in people and yourself rather than any deity or system that may or may not have existed/worked. pick out the bits of anrachism, communism, conservatism, islam, christianity, hinduism, buddhism and any other religion/political system you want and do what feels right for yourself and that you belief is best for dealing with those around you. i think the main problem is that not enough people even stop to think about stuff like this, they just go: "ach fuck all that religion shite" cause it's uncool and i guess it reminds people of being forced into going to sunday school or whatever but surely nothing can be discounted until it's at least been considered. make up your own minds and do what you're most comfortable with.

i honestly belief that if you sat anyone on their own with no outside influences and asked them to think(and genuinely think, not just mildly consider) how they like to be treated by folks around them and by people they meet, what they think causes problems on a large scale for human society, and what they really need and want from life then most people would show themselves to be caring and compassionate people. that is of course an idealist point of view and a fairly unlikely scenario but it's nice to think that it might happen one day(everyone becoming caring and compassionate, not just everyone sitting on their own) and it would probably still create problems but hopefully those problems wouldn't be sorted with bombing campaigns.[/quote']

Hey man, while may not agree with all of your points, that's a pretty cool post. I found what you said bout humanity quite interesting - how if given to opportunity, people will treat others only with kindness - that people are inherently good. Most, if not all, anarchists hold with just this view.

Regarding Spain - sure, things (if we're gonna look at the left) were rather more complicated. Stalin's meddling had disastrous consequences - pitting anti-fascist against anti-fascist. Riven with conflict, the anti-fascist forces fell in to disarray. With no united front to oppose him, Franco was able to seize power. But to say that the anarchists should carry some of the blame for their destruction is quite false.

[Guest allsystemsfail]

I did...and I think the nearest thing I got to the answer was "people will get together and do it..."

or was it in another post smoewhere down the line ? (in another thread?)

That to me means "look out for number one"' date=' if it doesn't, it's contradicotry, as how can you "take control of your own life" by looking after others ?..unless it's like "look after your business, that also involves other people in your everyday life" (how can that be done if no rules / laws are to be taken notice of ?)

[/quote']

People will get together and do it? I didn't say that, so what's with the quotation marks? Go look again. I said, that if anarchism is to prove a workable solution, and people wish it to succeed, then it is to their benefit to make it succeed. And so, people will indeed pull together, and no, will not shirk important work.

And no, by people taking control of their own lives, this does not demonstrate selfishness. They wish, with direct control of their lives, to make a better world - for everyone.

And regarding the use of law - go see my first point.

[framheim]

Hey man' date=' while may not agree with all of your points, that's a pretty cool post. I found what you said bout humanity quite interesting - how if given to opportunity, people will treat others only with kindness - that people are inherently good. Most, if not all, anarchists hold with just this view.

Regarding Spain - sure, things (if we're gonna look at the left) were rather more complicated. Stalin's meddling had disastrous consequences - pitting anti-fascist against anti-fascist. Riven with conflict, the anti-fascist forces fell in to disarray. With no united front to oppose him, Franco was able to seize power. But to say that the anarchists should carry some of the blame for their destruction is quite false.[/quote']

thanks!

when i said they weren't entirely blameless i was referring to their reluctance to organise their forces properly for a military conflict until it was too late and in some instances to not fight at all until attacked but again that's a generalisation and oversimplifies things. you're right of course when you say stalin and his meddling and the anti-fascist split was the main reason franco won but there were other things that aided this. to be honest i don't think any of the anti-fascists are blameless for what was a brave and valient anti-fascist war with some truly terrible blunders and atrocities. but it really is a whole other thread and a subject that i can only talk for a limited time on as i really really don't know enough about it.

[rune]

Dude' date=' drop it.

[/quote']

So you want me to ignore all the hatred and killing religion has caused?

Oh thats ok lets all forget what really is going on, lets all be ignorant bastards, go home and eat our dinners like nothing has ever happened. Hey you i wont lie down to this shit, i wont forget and be like the alot of those ignorant fuckers on this piece of shit planet.