Punk: US vs UK

[Swingin' Ryan]

I adore The Clash, but I can't say I'm totally convinced by the "punk saved us from Prog" argument, especially since in later years when punks owned up to liking Prog and took influence from it, from what I understand*. Can were a big influence on PiL and John Lydon was apparently a fan. It's a useful myth since it got kids to pick up guitars, but the experimental side of prog still had an influence.

A lot of punks were still middle-class and and/or educated, and the rest were Sham 69. It was an art-school movement as much as it was a street one.

*have read in Simon Reynolds books

I have also read the same Simon Reynolds book and I know the bit you're talking about but I still think Progs influence on Punk is fairly minimal. There's definitely examples of punk bands influenced by Prog-ish type bands, but I think it was more of a cultural/aesthetic shift. That shot of the Emerson, Lake and Palmer convoy is the one that always sticks in my head, an endless parade of 18-wheel lorries carrying all their gear and light show. Punk made that go from looking fantastically exciting to faintly ridiculous.

I agree with the point about US Post-Punk though, so many great bands from that era/scene. I can never understand why bands like Black Flag and Minor Threat seem to be the big names when 80's US Punk gets discussed but nobody mentions bands like Pere Ubu and Mission of Burma.

[Soda Jerk]

Mission of Burma have a chapter in the Our Band Could Be Your Life book. That's what got me into them too. Great band. There's heaps of brilliant bands that spawned from 80's hardcore punk that don't get anywhere near the recognition they deserve. Die Kruezen especially. They broke all the rules.

[Murrr]

The best thing about this thread is that it's made me revisit the Descendents and rediscover just how bloody good Mile Goes to College, Everything Sucks and Cool To Be You really are.

[Soda Jerk]

I've got mad love for the Descendents. I always preferred ALL though, but that's probably because I heard ALL first, through that old Street Skater game on the PS1, which pretty much got me into punk. Shit game though. Ridiculous tricks. Triple summersault 1080 handstand fingerflip? Mental.

Infact, Everything Sucks was meant to be an ALL record, but it wasn't finished in time, then Milo came in and they re-recorded the whole thing. Probably for the best. There's the old demos kicking around the internet with Chad doing the vocals for most of the songs. It sounds wrong.

[Alkaline]

I think Hot Water Music are my favourite melodic punk band from the states. Brilliant guitar lines, sound, great vocals and songs. They have the whole package. And beards.

[Soda Jerk]

Totally. Great evolution in their sound too. Didn't care for "The New What Next" but everything up to that is fantastic. No Division is a perfect record.

New album out on May. I didn't like the demos they released and uploaded last year though.

[Alkaline]

Totally. Great evolution in their sound too. Didn't care for "The New What Next" but everything up to that is fantastic. No Division is a perfect record.

New album out on May. I didn't like the demos they released and uploaded last year though.

I like "The New What Next" actually, but very much more radio friendly than the previous ones and a fairly logical progression from "A Flight and a Crash" where "Caution" was more of a step back really, though a totally awesome step back

You got any links to those demos?

[Soda Jerk]

http://soundcloud.com/reybee/hot-water-music-the-fire-the/s-yA60v

http://soundcloud.com/reybee/adds-up-to-nothing

[Alkaline]

http://soundcloud.com/reybee/hot-water-music-the-fire-the/s-yA60v

http://soundcloud.com/reybee/adds-up-to-nothing

Ahh, those were from a non-album single, not their best in all honesty The Fire, The Steel, The Tread sounds like a Chuck solo song backed by the Hot Water Musics. I prefer Adds Up To Nothing.

[Soda Jerk]

Ah, I didn't know that. I didn't like the tracks much so I didn't follow it up. I didn't even know a new album was coming out this year until a couple of days ago. Hopefully it's less softy alt-rock, and more raging punk rock. I don't mind Chuck ragan's solo stuff, and the stuff they did with Rumbleseat, but it has a time and a place. Would rather they just rocked out.

[Alkaline]

Ah, I didn't know that. I didn't like the tracks much so I didn't follow it up. I didn't even know a new album was coming out this year until a couple of days ago. Hopefully it's less softy alt-rock, and more raging punk rock. I don't mind Chuck ragan's solo stuff, and the stuff they did with Rumbleseat, but it has a time and a place. Would rather they just rocked out.

Yeah, i'm after some meaty riffs and gruff shout along musical magic.

[Stroopy121]

Chuck does an amazing version of Wreck of the Old '97 on "All Aboard: A Tribute to Johnny Cash". Ace record actually, The Flatliners version of Cry Cry Cry is superb.

xx

[Ross G]

Trio(old), Green day (old), NOFX, Blink (occasionally), Bad religion, Descendants, Pinhead Gunpowder, Flogging Molly, Distillers, The Murphy's, Pansy Division, The Queers, anything the Ramones did pre 1980's, Misfits, DK's. the list is endless. States win hands down, all though most of these bands came through in the 90's punk revival, apart from the couple of pioneers on this list. I actually appreciated 90's punk more, mainly because it was more melodic, and the kids were more bratty rather than just pure evil. Politically motivated bands aside (apart from maybe NOFX) , I also find the lyrical content most 90's punk bands put out in that generation to be more accessible. Personally, listening to a song about being a loser is actually more close to home rather than listening to a song about sniffing glue. But that's just my opinion. At the end of the day, if it has 3 chords and is catchy as fuck, that's all that really matters.

[Ross G]

Oh, and I nearly forgot: Bouncing Souls win at everything.

[Soda Jerk]

I've never quite understood the term "punk revival" which journos seem to throw around when referring to that era of punk. It's almost like they are suggesting punk rock died in the 80's, which it didn't. If anything, it errupted.

[Jaaakkkeee]

listening to a song about being a loser is actually more close to home rather...

[Monster Zero]

I think you're maybe being a little unfair to the US post-punk era. Bands like Pere Ubu and (early) Devo and (early) B-52's were pretty special, and Iggy Pop's stuff in the late 70s like The Idiot is pretty special too (although, David Bowie was heavily involved, so I'm not sure if that's really American).

I'm not discounting anything particularly, this is where personal points of demarkation occur - in my mind, the 'post-punk' period is sub-1978/9, after the demise of the Sex Pistols, who like it or not were pretty much the cornerstone of what was 'punk' in the UK in the mid-70's. Pretty much every other punk band in the UK sprung up after seeing them and their influence is sadly overshadowed by the clown that is John Lydon since the early 90's. Still an interesting and entertaining man if you take the time to read interviews. The second wave of US bands were probably more influenced by the UK punk bands than the US versions, hence bands like The Misfits, Dead Kennedys and Black Flag sounded more like the traditional notions of what a 'punk' band sound like. This then spawned into the hardcore punk movement which then became the template…it's a traceable cycle to me, but then bands spring up who recycle earlier periods again, or put their own little twist into the mix, then they influence bands and it's just an eternal cycle.

Pere Ubu were one of the bands that came out of Rocket From the Tombs, along with the Dead Boys. RFTT were only around for a couple of years from about 1974 and were pretty much a Stooges/MC5 type garage band. A lot of their repertoire carried forward into the other bands - '30 Seconds Over Tokyo' was originally a RFTT song. In my mind, Pere Ubu were actually part of the original US 'punk' scene along with the likes of The Ramones, Television, Patti Smith, Talking Heads, Suicide, etc and so I don't class them as 'post-punk'. But I won't argue that anyone else's alternative viewpoint is wrong, it's just my opinion.

Trouble is that other than The Ramones, very few of the original US 'punk' bands follow the traditional notion of 'punk' as exemplified by the Pistols, Clash, etc in the UK. The US bands tended to be more arty.

Although the punk stance was 'can't play, do it anyway', the original 70's UK bands were actually pretty proficient musicians. It tended to be the vocals that were a bit raw. You can't count Sid Vicious' lack of bass playing ability as a benchmark, because he played on very few Pistols recordings (if any) and was in the band as an image rather than anything else.

I don't count Iggy Pop in with any of the 'punk' or 'post-punk' periods because he pre-dated it all with The Stooges and it's fair to say that they are one of many bands who actually were 'punk' before it became a musical classification. His 2 strongest solo albums, 'Lust for Life' and 'The Idiot', were certainly well-timed to keep his reputation as 'Godfather of Punk' alive, but I think they would have existed with or without punk anyway. 'The Idiot' shows more commonality with the albums Bowie was making in that period - 'Low', 'Heroes' etc - which makes sense given Bowie's involvement with them.

In my mind it's impossible to clearly define 'punk' as it has grown through so many periods and become different things to different people. When the 'punk' scene sprang up in the 70's in the UK, very few people would have been aware of what was and had happened in the US to that point and so the UK scene would have been a valid definition of 'punk'. The benefit of the modern age and the ability to easily track down records by the bands that came before the mid-70's also gives the ability to trace the lineage back and this only makes the lines even more blurred in terms of clearly defining 'punk'.

Anyway this is probably just coming across as a load of demented ramblings but to me the age old question, 'what is punk?' is perfectly valid but will never have a clear cut answer. You could probably toss out the same question about 'heavy metal', it has similar traceability….

[3CR816]

I'm not discounting anything particularly, this is where personal points of demarkation occur - in my mind, the 'post-punk' period is sub-1978/9, after the demise of the Sex Pistols, who like it or not were pretty much the cornerstone of what was 'punk' in the UK in the mid-70's. Pretty much every other punk band in the UK sprung up after seeing them and their influence is sadly overshadowed by the clown that is John Lydon since the early 90's. Still an interesting and entertaining man if you take the time to read interviews. The second wave of US bands were probably more influenced by the UK punk bands than the US versions, hence bands like The Misfits, Dead Kennedys and Black Flag sounded more like the traditional notions of what a 'punk' band sound like. This then spawned into the hardcore punk movement which then became the template…it's a traceable cycle to me, but then bands spring up who recycle earlier periods again, or put their own little twist into the mix, then they influence bands and it's just an eternal cycle.

Pere Ubu were one of the bands that came out of Rocket From the Tombs, along with the Dead Boys. RFTT were only around for a couple of years from about 1974 and were pretty much a Stooges/MC5 type garage band. A lot of their repertoire carried forward into the other bands - '30 Seconds Over Tokyo' was originally a RFTT song. In my mind, Pere Ubu were actually part of the original US 'punk' scene along with the likes of The Ramones, Television, Patti Smith, Talking Heads, Suicide, etc and so I don't class them as 'post-punk'. But I won't argue that anyone else's alternative viewpoint is wrong, it's just my opinion.

Trouble is that other than The Ramones, very few of the original US 'punk' bands follow the traditional notion of 'punk' as exemplified by the Pistols, Clash, etc in the UK. The US bands tended to be more arty.

Although the punk stance was 'can't play, do it anyway', the original 70's UK bands were actually pretty proficient musicians. It tended to be the vocals that were a bit raw. You can't count Sid Vicious' lack of bass playing ability as a benchmark, because he played on very few Pistols recordings (if any) and was in the band as an image rather than anything else.

I don't count Iggy Pop in with any of the 'punk' or 'post-punk' periods because he pre-dated it all with The Stooges and it's fair to say that they are one of many bands who actually were 'punk' before it became a musical classification. His 2 strongest solo albums, 'Lust for Life' and 'The Idiot', were certainly well-timed to keep his reputation as 'Godfather of Punk' alive, but I think they would have existed with or without punk anyway. 'The Idiot' shows more commonality with the albums Bowie was making in that period - 'Low', 'Heroes' etc - which makes sense given Bowie's involvement with them.

In my mind it's impossible to clearly define 'punk' as it has grown through so many periods and become different things to different people. When the 'punk' scene sprang up in the 70's in the UK, very few people would have been aware of what was and had happened in the US to that point and so the UK scene would have been a valid definition of 'punk'. The benefit of the modern age and the ability to easily track down records by the bands that came before the mid-70's also gives the ability to trace the lineage back and this only makes the lines even more blurred in terms of clearly defining 'punk'.

Anyway this is probably just coming across as a load of demented ramblings but to me the age old question, 'what is punk?' is perfectly valid but will never have a clear cut answer. You could probably toss out the same question about 'heavy metal', it has similar traceability….

Sorry, I'm in total agreement. I erroneously believed that you were implying that The Knack were an archetypical American post-punk band.

But yeah, the whole thing's kind of blurry. Talking Heads and Suicide certainly have a lot of post-punk qualities sonically and conceptually: "space" in their music, electronics, funk influences, despite predating or being contemporaries of the Pistol's year zero.

I'm personally not sure how useful the 'post-punk' tag is to me, since it seems to encapsulate a lot of different sounds that came out of the democratizing of music (and networks of labels, critics and fanzines) that believed in this democratisation. A band like The Residents sort of fit despite being around since the early seventies. Perhaps it's fair to say that Punk gave a lot of ostensibly arty bands a chance to break through to a different scene and audience?

[The Milner]

This thread inspired me to go and get the full Greenday back catalogue, i've had them and lost all the albums at some point so ill admit to using a torrent (shoot me)

I honestly forgot how good Insomniac and Nimrod were, absolutely brilliant albums!!

[Jaaakkkeee]

This thread makes me want to take my pension out now.

[Soda Jerk]

Nimrod has great songs on it, but alot of parp too. Scattered is the best song they ever wrote though.

[The Milner]

Scattered Pictures? Thats prob my fav on Nimrod. 86 on Insomniac is another.

I think Blood Sex and Booze is my fav overall between that and King for a Day.

[threeornothing]

One of the best 7"s ever. Wearing the t-shirt today.

YES!!!

[Soda Jerk]

Scattered Pictures? Thats prob my fav on Nimrod. 86 on Insomniac is another.

I think Blood Sex and Booze is my fav overall between that and King for a Day.

Pretty sure the song is just called Scattered, isn't it?

[Ross G]

Westbound sign and stuart and the ave.

2 favourite tracks.

Reject come in a close third.

I also think that most of the tracks on Shenanigans are ace as well.

Anything after warning can suck my dick.