Do Women get Men?

[Bigsby]

[Shaki]

Where's Mr Miyagi with those pruning shears?

[Bigsby]

Where's Mr Miyagi with those pruning shears?

Aye, thought it would have been long gone by now.

[MerryChristmas]

One has baps and arse. The others have gossip. I wouldn't ask my mum to buy me FRONT so I wouldn't ask my girlfriend.

Also, I'm not sure men can 'take' contraceptive. I know they're developing a man pill but it's not on the go yet. I'd happily have a male implant instead of my gf as she hates it.

Double standards is her wanking furiously with a vibrator but as soon as you ask for a shot she goes off her head.

Coincidentally re: Vibration machines,

About 6 months ago I had an accident at work which meant I was OOA for 2 months, no rubbing, no humping, no nothing or the stitches would burst. The woman wanted me healed asap for some reason and threatened to ram her thing somewhere if she saw anything happening down there

Brilliant!

[Jaaakkkeee]

Coincidentally re: Vibration machines,

About 6 months ago I had an accident at work which meant I was OOA for 2 months, no rubbing, no humping, no nothing or the stitches would burst. The woman wanted me healed asap for some reason and threatened to ram her thing somewhere if she saw anything happening down there

Brilliant!

Should've just bent over and took it. I've never had anything up my arse but don't knock 'till you've tried it. Supposedly analgasms are just topps.

[MerryChristmas]

Should've just bent over and took it. I've never had anything up my arse but don't knock 'till you've tried it. Supposedly analgasms are just topps.

I suppose you're right but lube is just so expensive . I want to try it now just to find out if its like shitting in reverse

[Skubbs]

I suppose you're right but lube is just so expensive . I want to try it now just to find out if its like shitting in reverse

Well according to one of Billy Connolly's shows, a finger doesn't feel bad coming out...

[Oedo 808]

What frontiers need to be pushed back? How about the fact that women are still stereotyped into careers where they earn less

There comes a point where my ability to understand this concept dissolves. I can't wrap my head round it, this idea that someone was actually stereotyped into pursuing a career instead of doing something they were actually interested in or good at.

Ensuring that women doing the same job are actually earning the same across the board.

That's what I believe to be true because it makes economic sense. If women were paid less simply because they were women, hiring only women would be the simplest way to undercut your competitors and gain a competitive advantage. Businesses care about profits. Are we to also assume that they care more about being sexist than they do about making money? Why hire men?

Two women do the same job but earn different amounts of money. What force is at work here?

Why do young black female graduates on average earn more than young white female graduates? What conclusion should we reach?

in doing so hopefully work towards a society where people aren't punished or bullied for acting outside gender norms

I support this idea but it will always be in conflict with the greater need society has to encourage and enforce the 'correct' evolutionary behaviours.

You might want to pick up a copy of New Scientist this week. There's an article called "Men vs. Women: Science Delivers The Ultimate Verdict". There's one or two interesting bits in it.

[Skubbs]

There comes a point where my ability to understand this concept dissolves. I can't wrap my head round it, this idea that someone was actually stereotyped into pursuing a career instead of doing something they were actually interested in or good at.

Years ago, primary school teachers were predominanlty men yet nowadays this role is now seen as a woman's career. It's not that someone says "you WILL become a teacher!", it's a subtle progression over the years where kids are socialised into accepting stereotypes and as a result, live their life according to these generally accepted norms. Obviously, there are exceptions and not everyone will choose a career path that is seen being typical of their sex.

I remember at school one lassy left school to become a joiner, obviously the kids were cruel and pegged her as being a lesbian and even called her "Yorkie" ("it's not for girls...").

I've noticed that the majority of teaching staff in the Psychology department are male, but the majority of psychologists I've met through my voluntary work are female.

[jon]

Years ago, primary school teachers were predominanlty men.

Really? It was my understanding (and certainly my experience) that the vast majority of primary school teachers are female, and have been for a long time. Thinking about my own primary school back in the 80s, there was only one male member of staff.

[Skubbs]

Really? It was my understanding (and certainly my experience) that the vast majority of primary school teachers are female, and have been for a long time. Thinking about my own primary school back in the 80s, there was only one male member of staff.

By "years ago" I mean further back, either your parents or grandparents' school would have had a predominantly male teaching staff. There were a couple of male teachers when I was at primary school, but they taught the P6 and P7 kids.

[KarmaTsunami]

There comes a point where my ability to understand this concept dissolves. I can't wrap my head round it, this idea that someone was actually stereotyped into pursuing a career instead of doing something they were actually interested in or good at.

It's not just women though. If you think of men who become Nurses it's not that long ago that the majority of people would exhibit surprise at a man being a nurse rather than a doctor. To take an example from popular culture, Mad Men - sure sometimes it over exaggerates because it's entertainment but the majority of women are receptionists and there's a certain attitude exhibited by the men towards women who are successful in a field normally dominated by men. Of course it's set fifty years ago and there have been vast improvements, but you later go on to mention "the greater need society has to encourage and enforce the 'correct' evolutionary behaviours" and I think this goes a long way towards explaining the fact that even in the 21st century there are examples of women still being 'stereotyped' into jobs.

That's what I believe to be true because it makes economic sense. If women were paid less simply because they were women, hiring only women would be the simplest way to undercut your competitors and gain a competitive advantage. Businesses care about profits. Are we to also assume that they care more about being sexist than they do about making money? Why hire men?

Two women do the same job but earn different amounts of money. What force is at work here?

Why do young black female graduates on average earn more than young white female graduates? What conclusion should we reach?

A company would be run into the ground if it openly hired only women because it could pay them less. Do you honestly think that would be allowed? In a coed workplace there are a variety of excuses a company could use to implement a pay gap between male and female employees. I'm not saying that everywhere does but it clearly happens otherwise it wouldn't be an issue. I'd imagine (without having done a GREAT deal of research on the subject but I'll do some reading this week) that a lot of it comes down to not knowing how much your colleagues are paid.

I support this idea but it will always be in conflict with the greater need society has to encourage and enforce the 'correct' evolutionary behaviours.

You might want to pick up a copy of New Scientist this week. There's an article called "Men vs. Women: Science Delivers The Ultimate Verdict". There's one or two interesting bits in it.

I'm interested in the biological v sociological issues this raises. Not just the oppositions but the areas where they clearly intersect. I'll pick up this copy of New Scientist. Cheers.

[Oedo 808]

Years ago, primary school teachers were predominanlty men yet nowadays this role is now seen as a woman's career.

Years ago the workforce were predominantly men.

It's not that someone says "you WILL become a teacher!", it's a subtle progression over the years where kids are socialised into accepting stereotypes and as a result, live their life according to these generally accepted norms.

So gender stereotyping is more prevalent than it was in the days when more men were teaching primary school kids?

[KarmaTsunami]

Years ago the workforce were predominantly men.

So gender stereotyping is more prevalent than it was in the days when more men were teaching primary school kids?

Perhaps because men are perpetuating gender stereotypes due to being threatened by more women entering the workforce? I see the point you're making but you can argue that one either way.

[Oedo 808]

In a coed workplace there are a variety of excuses a company could use to implement a pay gap between male and female employees. I'm not saying that everywhere does but it clearly happens otherwise it wouldn't be an issue. I'd imagine (without having done a GREAT deal of research on the subject but I'll do some reading this week) that a lot of it comes down to not knowing how much your colleagues are paid.

Well when you find the excuses a company can use to pay women less for doing the same job and hours then let me know what they are.

I think the reason it's an issue is because of a flawed logic that if the average pay for all women and the average pay for all men isn't exactly the same then sexism must be the root cause when there are other explanations for the disparity.

For instance, men tend to work longer hours. (Never taken into account) That men tend to do more dangerous jobs and therefore receive hazard pay. (92% of all work related deaths are men) That women are more likely to take a break from their career to have children which also effects the types of career they might choose.

That's 3 right off the top of my head.

[Oedo 808]

Perhaps because men are perpetuating gender stereotypes due to being threatened by more women entering the workforce? I see the point you're making but you can argue that one either way.

But that argument is basically a "yes" to my previous question. Also, I think it's a little bit sad that anyone would even put that argument on the table, it suggests an attitude towards men that I would never perpetuate towards women. It smacks of paranoia and misandry as far as I'm concerned.

[Skubbs]

There are stereotypes though, boys and girls are treated differently - one experiment had women given a child to hold dressed in blue (indicating a boy), and another dressed in pink (indicating a girl). The children were treated differently, even though it was the same child. So it's not down to biology, it is your social view of the world. You are bombarded with what boys and girls should like and how they should act from day one.

As for women and men being paid differently, I do recall researching this area in 2nd year sociology, and finding out that in the late 80s female journalists were paid about 20 cents less per word than men. It was exactly the same kind of work, for the same newspaper. They weren't discussing completely different topics and it wasn't that the men were in dangerous situations. The only reason for this was because they were women.

Was it not that long ago that a woman took a council to court over her pay, because she was essentially doing the job of a janitor but wasn't being paid the same amount as her male coworker?

[Oedo 808]

As for women and men being paid differently, I do recall researching this area in 2nd year sociology, and finding out that in the late 80s female journalists were paid about 20 cents less per word than men.

Not to be too complacent but that is a good while ago.

Was it not that long ago that a woman took a council to court over her pay, because she was essentially doing the job of a janitor but wasn't being paid the same amount as her male coworker?

There was a very large council dispute over pay quite recently but I don't think the men and women were doing the same jobs.

[Skubbs]

Not to be too complacent but that is a good while ago.

It was the only clear example that came to me, but there were other instances. I'm sure differences in ballet dancers was another one, where the women undergo more rigorous training than men but are paid less.

[Oedo 808]

It was the only clear example that came to me, but there were other instances. I'm sure differences in ballet dancers was another one, where the women undergo more rigorous training than men but are paid less.

I'm only guessing but that would probably be down to a supply and demand issue.

[Skubbs]

How different? What were they asked to do and i assume they weren't told whether they were a girl or a boy, just left to assume judged on colour? If it was simply looking after the child and they weren't told and they were treated differently than fair enough that's odd but doesn't really say much. If they were asked to play with the child, then i expect them to be treated different in almost every way, because men and women are different.

They seemed to "coo" over the baby dressed in pink more and handled it differently. It was about a year ago and I didn't particularly enjoy sociology so I don't remember all the details. But the children were treated differently, according to whether the participant thought it was a boy or girl.

There's the agrument that the behavioural differences aren't biological, I remember a discussion about a tribe in New Guinea with the women displaying traditionally masculine traits and the men displaying traditionally feminine traits; the women would go out hunting and the men would stay at the camp, gossiping and looking after the children. There were other tribes where both men and women were masculine, and where both men and women were feminine. If I could be arsed I'd go through my old books and give you refs.

It's just interesting how stereotypes have progressed through history, and just now I'm doing an essay exploring whether stereotype activation is automatic and inevitable.

But I do agree that women and men are different. Pre-op transexual women admit after having started hormone treatment, they feel less emotional about issues and so on.

[KarmaTsunami]

But that argument is basically a "yes" to my previous question. Also, I think it's a little bit sad that anyone would even put that argument on the table, it suggests an attitude towards men that I would never perpetuate towards women. It smacks of paranoia and misandry as far as I'm concerned.

I should have been clearer; it's not an argument I would put on the table by any means but to me your point seemed to suggest that women entering the workforce were the ones doing the gender stereotyping and my counter to that was that you could argue the men already in the workplace enforced gender stereotyping because they were threatened.

I could have missed your point entirely, and apologies if I have which I think I did.

With regards to the gender pay gap, I've started reading around this and found wildly conflicting arguments and statistics. I'll admit I don't know nearly enough statistics to be able to argue any point I want to make with a sense of validity. Most of what I read seemed to suggest that it was in fact down to women leaving the workplace/working less in order to raise their children so what I'm looking for now are examples of pay gaps between men and women in the same job where the woman doesn't take maternity leave. There seem to be a few cases but it looks like a minority rather than majority of employers.

[Oedo 808]

it's not an argument I would put on the table by any means but to me your point seemed to suggest that women entering the workforce were the ones doing the gender stereotyping

What I'm saying is that women outnumbering men in what was previously a male dominated profession seems to be an unusual example of an inequality for women.

Not enough women in Parliament. Too many women in Teaching. Well maybe, but are we suggesting that the workplace should be made to taste like a bowl of Goldilocks' porridge? Who decides what the right amount is? Is it simply 50/50 for every profession?

With regards to the gender pay gap, I've started reading around this and found wildly conflicting arguments and statistics. I'll admit I don't know nearly enough statistics to be able to argue any point I want to make with a sense of validity. Most of what I read seemed to suggest that it was in fact down to women leaving the workplace/working less in order to raise their children so what I'm looking for now are examples of pay gaps between men and women in the same job where the woman doesn't take maternity leave.

That makes sense. So to balance the pay gap we could legally force men who make any woman pregnant to take an equal amount of leave from work to look after the child. I'm sure you could make an argument for that based on sexual responsibility, child welfare and equality. Whether that is desirable or necessary is debatable but it evens up the % figures if that's the most important thing.

There's the agrument that the behavioural differences aren't biological

They most definitely are. There's a large amount of scientific research to back this up, but that's not to say that learned behaviour plays no part.

A few fun facts from New Scientist this week:

Girls with elevated testosterone prefer boys toys (can't be societal)

Female rats with induced male brain development play as male rats (how do they know?)

Male vervet monkeys prefer playing with boys toys like cars and trucks (boys will be boys)

Men are typically taller than women... but height is a better indicator of behaviour than sex

Has anyone done any research on the pay gap between tall and short people?

More on brain development:

10 Big Differences Between Mens and Womens Brains | Masters of Healthcare

To put the above article in perspective it's worth noting that men perform only very marginally better in maths than women and that the differences between men and women's understanding of mathematical concepts is non-existent.

[Adam Easy Wishes]

Has anyone done any research on the pay gap between tall and short people?

I read an article recently on this - I think it was on the BBC News website (but I can't seem to fine it) - basically concluded that tall people are in more senior management/director roles, therefore paid more, than shorter people.

[Bigsby]

I'm tall and nobody respects me at all so that's that theory right out the window.