How many local bands get things in writing?

[original_andy]

I know it's not the same but I do stand up comedy all over Scotland, I also act as one of the bookers for the Snafu Comedy Club. If a promoter books me and tells me he'll give me 50 and I turn up and the gig is cancelled or only three people are in the audience I still expect 50. If I don't get it then I won't do that gig again and I'll tell everyone I know not to trust that promoter.

I don't mind doing gigs for no or little money but if someone said that the amount I'd be paid would be dependent on how many people turn up I'd tell them to fuck off. Surely it's the promoter's job to get people along to a gig. The perfomer should help because it always better to perform to a full room but the responsibility lies entirely with the promoter.

When booking acts for Snafu we always tell them exactly how much they'll get before they turn up. Even if they come along and die on their arse we'll still pay them because we've agreed to. We just won't book them again.

Find it very strange that this doesn't happen with music and bands. Maybe has something to do with the amount of bands looking for gigs.

[Adam Easy Wishes]

I'm a trainee lawyer

It's a few years since I studied Contract Law at uni, but I think I'm right in saying that pretty much anything can constitue an offer and acceptance. E-mailed terms are much stronger than a verbal agreement, and it's long been recognised that verbal agreement is binding.

When there is no physical hard copy signed agreement, what constitutes the "contract" is pretty much everything else. The court would look at what's been said in e-mails/letters and try to find the intention of the parties.

(By the way - none of this is actually based on what I do at work - I work in Oil & Gas, and everything is always done by written contract. It's more based on what I studied at uni, and from cases of people I know who operate in smaller businesses etc)

I also work in contracts, for an oil & gas company...they're putting me through the Oil & Gas Law post-grad starting in September so perhaps I'll come back and answer the legal issues then. :]

[FatHand]

did you need to quote me twice to come up with that nugget of humour?

Looks that way

[FatHand]

I know it's not the same but I do stand up comedy all over Scotland, I also act as one of the bookers for the Snafu Comedy Club. If a promoter books me and tells me he'll give me 50 and I turn up and the gig is cancelled or only three people are in the audience I still expect 50. If I don't get it then I won't do that gig again and I'll tell everyone I know not to trust that promoter.

I don't mind doing gigs for no or little money but if someone said that the amount I'd be paid would be dependent on how many people turn up I'd tell them to fuck off. Surely it's the promoter's job to get people along to a gig. The perfomer should help because it always better to perform to a full room but the responsibility lies entirely with the promoter.

When booking acts for Snafu we always tell them exactly how much they'll get before they turn up. Even if they come along and die on their arse we'll still pay them because we've agreed to. We just won't book them again.

Find it very strange that this doesn't happen with music and bands. Maybe has something to do with the amount of bands looking for gigs.

It's possibly not the case that one size fits all to be honest, I don't think the night I put on is comparable with many other nights in Aberdeen, at the moment. I set up the night so that my band, as hosts, could play on a regular basis with bands that we choose to play with, who are genre compatible, in an effort to create a fanbase and scene for our brand of music. This makes me a promoter of sorts as I have to make sure the night is advertised well, book groups to play and also pay them.

Having gone through this exercise essentially for my own group, I've realised that the success of a night isn't just down to one person or group, everyone involved in the night has a responsibility. That is why I give everyone a fair share of the door money, each person (rather than band) is given a share. Some months are better than others, this month was quieter but I still manage to pay the individuals very well for a local night as well as recoup money for general promoting expenses.

I work on the principle, that the more work you put into getting people along, the more you get at the end of the night. Definitely means that I'm not doing this for my own personal gain too. I could potentially make quite a lot of money if I only paid bands 50 or whatever.

[Guest Bob]

It's always best to get it in writing, that's why you should always carry around slips of paper with the words "I consent" on them. Then, simply get the girl to date it and sign underneath.

[Limeworld]

Kinda got me thinking due to Exposure@lemontrees thread on bands pulling out of gigs.

How many local bands employ the use of contracts/getting things in writing before playing a gig? Do any of you local bands get a set amount to be paid in writing before playing a gig? I remember a Musicians Union representative coming to our college to explain that getting things in writings the first step to becoming more professional but it got me thinking that how many local promoters would feel happy signing a binding contract saying "x amount of money must be paid to the band after playing etc etc"?

Anyway, all just thoughts and stuff but what are your thoughts on this situation?

We have been trying to introduce this, But some bands feel uncomfertable.

So right now its semi-opptional unless they are wanting a set fee.

[Limeworld]

I know it's not the same but I do stand up comedy all over Scotland, I also act as one of the bookers for the Snafu Comedy Club. If a promoter books me and tells me he'll give me 50 and I turn up and the gig is cancelled or only three people are in the audience I still expect 50. If I don't get it then I won't do that gig again and I'll tell everyone I know not to trust that promoter.

I don't mind doing gigs for no or little money but if someone said that the amount I'd be paid would be dependent on how many people turn up I'd tell them to fuck off. Surely it's the promoter's job to get people along to a gig. The perfomer should help because it always better to perform to a full room but the responsibility lies entirely with the promoter.

When booking acts for Snafu we always tell them exactly how much they'll get before they turn up. Even if they come along and die on their arse we'll still pay them because we've agreed to. We just won't book them again.

Find it very strange that this doesn't happen with music and bands. Maybe has something to do with the amount of bands looking for gigs.

Yeh thats fair.

[Guest Bob Double Jack]

I know it's not the same but I do stand up comedy all over Scotland, I also act as one of the bookers for the Snafu Comedy Club. If a promoter books me and tells me he'll give me 50 and I turn up and the gig is cancelled or only three people are in the audience I still expect 50. If I don't get it then I won't do that gig again and I'll tell everyone I know not to trust that promoter.

I don't mind doing gigs for no or little money but if someone said that the amount I'd be paid would be dependent on how many people turn up I'd tell them to fuck off. Surely it's the promoter's job to get people along to a gig. The perfomer should help because it always better to perform to a full room but the responsibility lies entirely with the promoter.

When booking acts for Snafu we always tell them exactly how much they'll get before they turn up. Even if they come along and die on their arse we'll still pay them because we've agreed to. We just won't book them again.

Find it very strange that this doesn't happen with music and bands. Maybe has something to do with the amount of bands looking for gigs.

a very good post. venues shouldn't be allowed to cut wages due to poor turnout, a pub in aberdeen tried that with us years ago when they asked us to stop early, and we simply refused to leave the bar until she paid us full whack. i always phone a venue or visit it with posters prior to gigs to check it's not been cancelled /cash. if you;re getting 250 - 350 a gig, then this can end up being expensive if you get cancelled a couple of days beforehand. I know of a band that was cancelled the afternoon of a gig in aberdeen (no names) and still demanded their fee. which they got, and they're musicians union members. . The only gigs I've ever done for door money are tribute act gigs, and they're usually pretty good.

Although, i knew a tribute band who played a gig for a set fee regardless of turnout, and the promoter was almost in tears when he handed over their wages, at a considerable loss. but if you can't promote the gig - don;t bother and then cry cos you're out of pocket!

Band - plays music / supplies posters / advertises gig on net-in paper-on website

Promoter - promotes.

[Stupot]

I send out a contract with a cancellation clause every time. Also a clause stating non signature of the contract does not mean the contract isn't valid. Cancellation by the venue within 30 days of the event means 50% of the fee, within 7 days, full fee.

A lot of bands and acts won't use contracts because it's a paper trail for the taxman. You are also now required to have public liability insurance and equipment PAT testing if you're a pro or semi pro outfit. An increasing number of venues will not allow you to play if you don't have both of these and it's a valid reason to refuse to pay you.

Don't anyone bother bleating that it's not enshrined in law yet, a venue is perfectly entitled to ask for these things and to bin you if you don't have them.

[The Milner]

My band used to be the same, we'd almost always agree on a fee up front - with a few exceptions for promoters we were friends with or private gigs where we weren't fussed about getting paid.

I've spent my own money on flyers etc before but I'd say that it's up to me if I want to do that. It's not my responsibility to do so, it's the promoters. If it's not his/hers then why should he/she get financial priority if all she's/he's done nothing more than phone some bands and book a venue? At the end of the day, you get back what you put in.

id say its the responsibility of both, if promoters dont get punters in they lose money and may not get to use the venue again, if bands dont bother then how will they ever develope a fan base and also if the gig is empty and the promoter feels they did nothing to help the situaton they may not bother giving said band another gig.

[RF Scott]

id say its the responsibility of both, if promoters dont get punters in they lose money and may not get to use the venue again, if bands dont bother then how will they ever develope a fan base and also if the gig is empty and the promoter feels they did nothing to help the situaton they may not bother giving said band another gig.

If you're talking about a local gig, you should either promote it to the best of your ability, or just put on your own show, if you know you can get more than thirty or so people through the door. If it's a show further afield, there's not really a lot of promotion you can do asides from myspace bulletins.

[The Milner]

If you're talking about a local gig, you should either promote it to the best of your ability, or just put on your own show, if you know you can get more than thirty or so people through the door. If it's a show further afield, there's not really a lot of promotion you can do asides from myspace bulletins.

yeah sorry should have made that clear i was talking about local gigs, further a field your right although i was always open to the idea of flyering the city centre of where you are playing although that would entirely depend on where you are, time of day you get there, how tired you are from the gig before or the journey.

[Soda Jerk]

If it's a show further afield, there's not really a lot of promotion you can do asides from myspace bulletins.

Posting out wads of flyers to promoters in the area has always helped for me. When my old band toured in 07, I made a flyer for every date, and posted them out to promoters and record shops in that area. It was only a 7 day tour, so I imagine that would be costly and just downright horrible to do if it was a longer venture. Definitely possible if it's a one off date, and I'd definitely recommend it.

[Guest idol_wild]

id say its the responsibility of both, if promoters dont get punters in they lose money and may not get to use the venue again, if bands dont bother then how will they ever develope a fan base and also if the gig is empty and the promoter feels they did nothing to help the situaton they may not bother giving said band another gig.

Although I see your points and agree slightly, my personal method is to avoid relying on the bands to get people through the door. As a promoter, if I book a band - any band, regardless of location, profile, etc - I feel it is entirely my responsibility to get people through the door and spread the word about the gig. Sure, bands can do their little bit by means of telling their friends and family about the gig, but for me, if I book an act to play on a bill then I am looking to promote that act and hopefully help them gain new listeners and increase their audience/fanbase. Thus, I am promoting them.

I have learned the very hard way - if I lose money on a gig then I am entirely responsible and will look at methods of ensuring it doesn't happen ever again. Although I am strictly non-profit, making a profit on the door is a brilliant feeling as it means I can pay the bands a little more than I guaranteed them (I only look to cover overheads). And I always guarantee a band a fee now - regardless of location/profile. And I would never offer a band a slot purely on the basis that "they pull a big crowd" unless I had seen them before and really liked their set, or I had heard really good things from people I trusted completely. I have spat the dummy out and sulked in the past when promoting gigs hasn't gone my way, but one learns a lot every single gig one organises and promotes.

But every promoter has differing methods, and that is probably a good thing. Promoters find what works for them and what they are looking to achieve by putting on gigs and I completely respect that.

[The Milner]

Although I see your points and agree slightly, my personal method is to avoid relying on the bands to get people through the door. As a promoter, if I book a band - any band, regardless of location, profile, etc - I feel it is entirely my responsibility to get people through the door and spread the word about the gig. Sure, bands can do their little bit by means of telling their friends and family about the gig, but for me, if I book an act to play on a bill then I am looking to promote that act and hopefully help them gain new listeners and increase their audience/fanbase. Thus, I am promoting them.

I have learned the very hard way - if I lose money on a gig then I am entirely responsible and will look at methods of ensuring it doesn't happen ever again. Although I am strictly non-profit, making a profit on the door is a brilliant feeling as it means I can pay the bands a little more than I guaranteed them (I only look to cover overheads). And I always guarantee a band a fee now - regardless of location/profile. And I would never offer a band a slot purely on the basis that "they pull a big crowd" unless I had seen them before and really liked their set, or I had heard really good things from people I trusted completely. I have spat the dummy out and sulked in the past when promoting gigs hasn't gone my way, but one learns a lot every single gig one organises and promotes.

But every promoter has differing methods, and that is probably a good thing. Promoters find what works for them and what they are looking to achieve by putting on gigs and I completely respect that.

all very good points like, i wish more promoters had the time and energy to do as much promotion as you seem to do for your gigs.

[Guest idol_wild]

all very good points like, i wish more promoters had the time and energy to do as much promotion as you seem to do for your gigs.

I make time and energy. Other aspects of my life are taking a back seat just now so I can go ahead and do things the way I want to.

I only have gigs booked until 3rd May, though. After that I'll calm down and book more occassionally

[The Milner]

I make time and energy. Other aspects of my life are taking a back seat just now so I can go ahead and do things the way I want to.

I only have gigs booked until 3rd May, though. After that I'll calm down and book more occassionally

its decent your willing to lose a lot of your down time to aid your gigs, do you want to do something more with promoting or is it purely as a hobbie basis?

[Guest idol_wild]

its decent your willing to lose a lot of your down time to aid your gigs, do you want to do something more with promoting or is it purely as a hobbie basis?

For the moment, it's purely a hobby/something I enjoy doing.

[The Milner]

For the moment, it's purely a hobby/something I enjoy doing.

then my hat is most definately off to you sir, i dont think i could give that much of my free time towards promoting unless id considered taking it up more full time.

[Guest idol_wild]

then my hat is most definately off to you sir, i dont think i could give that much of my free time towards promoting unless id considered taking it up more full time.

It's the same with anything, though. You sacrifice other things to do the things you enjoy while your mind and body are still capable of them.

I also sacrifice other things to sit and play Football Manager for hours every week, y'know? I have a suspicion you can empathise with that one!

[The Milner]

It's the same with anything, though. You sacrifice other things to do the things you enjoy while your mind and body are still capable of them.

I also sacrifice other things to sit and play Football Manager for hours every week, y'know? I have a suspicion you can empathise with that one!

yes football manager its a cunt for that, ive dedicated too much of my life to that game!!!

[FatHand]

It's the same with anything, though. You sacrifice other things to do the things you enjoy while your mind and body are still capable of them.

QUOTE]

I concur. It's for the love of music at the end of the day. Profit can only be seen as a bonus most of the time. It is unlikely that I will make a loss on my night, but that is just the way it is designed. I do, however, put money and effort into my music which always costs and can't really be recouped unless by some freak chance a large amount of money came from something I created or was involved in.

You have to do it while the drive and ideas are there.

[Monster Zero]

Although I see your points and agree slightly, my personal method is to avoid relying on the bands to get people through the door. As a promoter, if I book a band - any band, regardless of location, profile, etc - I feel it is entirely my responsibility to get people through the door and spread the word about the gig. Sure, bands can do their little bit by means of telling their friends and family about the gig, but for me, if I book an act to play on a bill then I am looking to promote that act and hopefully help them gain new listeners and increase their audience/fanbase. Thus, I am promoting them.

I have learned the very hard way - if I lose money on a gig then I am entirely responsible and will look at methods of ensuring it doesn't happen ever again. Although I am strictly non-profit, making a profit on the door is a brilliant feeling as it means I can pay the bands a little more than I guaranteed them (I only look to cover overheads). And I always guarantee a band a fee now - regardless of location/profile. And I would never offer a band a slot purely on the basis that "they pull a big crowd" unless I had seen them before and really liked their set, or I had heard really good things from people I trusted completely. I have spat the dummy out and sulked in the past when promoting gigs hasn't gone my way, but one learns a lot every single gig one organises and promotes.

But every promoter has differing methods, and that is probably a good thing. Promoters find what works for them and what they are looking to achieve by putting on gigs and I completely respect that.

Now that is a proper promoter attitude, unlike these hopeless cunts who call themselves 'promoters' then bleat on about how bands never got people in the door and insist on bands selling a certain amount of tickets before they are paid....you aren't a promoter, you are someone who can book a room. Well done, my Granny can do that.