How many local bands get things in writing?

[black_matter]

Kinda got me thinking due to Exposure@lemontrees thread on bands pulling out of gigs.

How many local bands employ the use of contracts/getting things in writing before playing a gig? Do any of you local bands get a set amount to be paid in writing before playing a gig? I remember a Musicians Union representative coming to our college to explain that getting things in writings the first step to becoming more professional but it got me thinking that how many local promoters would feel happy signing a binding contract saying "x amount of money must be paid to the band after playing etc etc"?

Anyway, all just thoughts and stuff but what are your thoughts on this situation?

[Guest Exposure @ Lemon Tree]

Hey - I do this for the Exposure @ Lemon Tree clubnights, but to be quite honest, don't have the time to do it for all the shows I'm putting on - in hindsight, I wish I had....

Although - I wouldn't be overly comfortable at putting an agreed fixed fee for every band that plays at the likes of the gigs I'm sticking on at the Tunnels/Snafu etc. I've lost a bit of cash on these shows, and am hoping upcoming ones will even it out. If I'd agreed a fixed fee for the bands I'd have been even more out of pocket. I prefer to do it in an informal way - if the gig is really well attended, the bands will get a bigger fee, and if the attendance is low, they'll get a bit less.

We (The Underkills) have never signed any contracts, but we're very far from being a professional band...

[Paulscoconutass]

In 8 years of gigs in bands and acoustic I've never had anything in writing before a gig. Only thing close to this was writing out the set-lists (PRS forms?) at the Lemon Tree.

[FatHand]

Does anyone get a verbal agreement even????

Considering bands don't take any of the financial risk when a promoter is putting on a night, there is no incentive for them to put extra effort into pulling in a crowd. I agree with the principle Calum mentioned above, if the night does well then the band's fee should reflect this, this generates the incentive for the band to do a bit of graft with advertising and plugging themselves (over and above promoter). At the end of the day, the only way money can be made from gigs is by getting people through the door so I'd say that this is the first port of call for being more professional rather than getting involved in legal documents. These document work both ways but who is really going to enforce them?

Perhaps verbally agree this with the promoter? Or even just put on your own night, then you can take all the bounty for yourself?

[Guest Exposure @ Lemon Tree]

Does anyone get a verbal agreement even????

Considering bands don't take any of the financial risk when a promoter is putting on a night, there is no incentive for them to put extra effort into pulling in a crowd. I agree with the principle Calum mentioned above, if the night does well then the band's fee should reflect this, this generates the incentive for the band to do a bit of graft with advertising and plugging themselves (over and above promoter). At the end of the day, the only way money can be made from gigs is by getting people through the door so I'd say that this is the first port of call for being more professional rather than getting involved in legal documents. These document work both ways but who is really going to enforce them?

Perhaps verbally agree this with the promoter? Or even just put on your own night, then you can take all the bounty for yourself?

Enforcing them would be the most difficult part. Say you've agreed a 50 fee, are you really going to take a promoter/venue to court if they only pay you 20 cos of shit gig attendance? Or if a band doesn't turn up, is the promoter going to take them to court and sue them? It's different when you get into booking big touring bands to play at the likes of Music Hall (or even Lemon Tree/Moshulu) where there are likely to be a massive amount of pre-sales, and sold out shows etc. You need to get something in writing to cover your ass in the event of a no-show, and the band would want a guarantee.

I guess it's a case of weighing up the hassle of getting written agreements in place against the risk of how much you could lose out on etc. For local unsigned bands playing small shows at the small local venues, I don't see much point in putting written agreements in place.

[soundian]

At the local level merely having the relevant details (where, when, how much) in writing is sufficient. Even an email or a PM etc is good enough.

Not so much for legal reasons but to prevent any misunderstandings later. If it's there in black and white no once can argue about who said what.

[FatHand]

At the local level merely having the relevant details (where, when, how much) in writing is sufficient. Even an email or a PM etc is good enough.

Not so much for legal reasons but to prevent any misunderstandings later. If it's there in black and white no once can argue about who said what.

Good point.

[The Milner]

could most bands take any kind of legal action? Take into consideration that 90% will not be paying any tax on any money they make from gigs, so therefor would be getting themselves into more trouble than its worth, no?

[FatHand]

could most bands take any kind of legal action? Take into consideration that 90% will not be paying any tax on any money they make from gigs, so therefor would be getting themselves into more trouble than its worth, no?

no .

[Guest Exposure @ Lemon Tree]

At the local level merely having the relevant details (where, when, how much) in writing is sufficient. Even an email or a PM etc is good enough.

Not so much for legal reasons but to prevent any misunderstandings later. If it's there in black and white no once can argue about who said what.

Exactly, even if you are looking from a legal point of view - e-mails can constitute a written agreement, and at the very least is good evidence of what was agreed (i.e. better than verbal, cos it's just one person's word against another).

But I'd go back to the enforceability point - if someone screws someone else over with money or not turning up or whatever. At the low level local stuff, there won't be any legal action taken because it's simply not worth the time/money/hassle. Reputation wise, a promoter can get publicly slated if they don't pay what was pre-agreed (if anything was pre-agreed), or a venue can stop putting on a certain band if they screw them over in anyway etc.

I don't think there's really a problem with any of this anyway. There does seem to have been a lot of bands pulling out of (not just my) shows lately, but having something in writing wouldn't have stopped it, because you'd have to put something in that said "if the band fails to appear, or pulls out of the show within x number of weeks, they will be liable to pay the promoter x amount of money" for it to even mean anything. The chances are the band won't be happy signing something like that, or if they do pull out, they'll just tell the promoter where to go if he tries to go after them for the money, and the chances of the promoter taking any legal action for the sake of 50 is very unlikely.

[FatHand]

could most bands take any kind of legal action? Take into consideration that 90% will not be paying any tax on any money they make from gigs, so therefor would be getting themselves into more trouble than its worth, no?

There is always Judge Judy

[RF Scott]

Enforcing them would be the most difficult part. Say you've agreed a 50 fee, are you really going to take a promoter/venue to court if they only pay you 20 cos of shit gig attendance? Or if a band doesn't turn up, is the promoter going to take them to court and sue them? It's different when you get into booking big touring bands to play at the likes of Music Hall (or even Lemon Tree/Moshulu) where there are likely to be a massive amount of pre-sales, and sold out shows etc. You need to get something in writing to cover your ass in the event of a no-show, and the band would want a guarantee.

I guess it's a case of weighing up the hassle of getting written agreements in place against the risk of how much you could lose out on etc. For local unsigned bands playing small shows at the small local venues, I don't see much point in putting written agreements in place.

If you've AGREED a 50 fee, and get paid 40% of that, I think you're more than entitled to create a shit storm. Vans and bellies don't run on thin air. If a promoter isn't going to pay the full fee due to poor turnout, why AGREE on a fee in the first place?

[Guest Exposure @ Lemon Tree]

could most bands take any kind of legal action? Take into consideration that 90% will not be paying any tax on any money they make from gigs, so therefor would be getting themselves into more trouble than its worth, no?

That's also a good point. Although you could probably argue your way out of it and set off costs against the income. I'm certain if I tallied up all the money I've personally pocketed from playing in the Underkills that I'd be at a loss when you take into account money paid on equipment, practice, recording, flyers/posters, travelling to "away" gigs, and accommodation etc.

Different if you're actually making money out of your band, but I'd suspect the more professional outfits that actually make money will probably be putting in tax returns and paying any tax they owe.

[RF Scott]

That's also a good point. Although you could probably argue your way out of it and set off costs against the income. I'm certain if I tallied up all the money I've personally pocketed from playing in the Underkills that I'd be at a loss when you take into account money paid on equipment, practice, recording, flyers/posters, travelling to "away" gigs, and accommodation etc.

Different if you're actually making money out of your band, but I'd suspect the more professional outfits that actually make money will probably be putting in tax returns and paying any tax they owe.

If your band is with an agency or anything like that there's no way to get out of being registered, really. That said, it'll have it's benefits too - trips to service stations can then become 'business expenses.'

[Guest Exposure @ Lemon Tree]

If you've AGREED a 50 fee, and get paid 40% of that, I think you're more than entitled to create a shit storm. Vans and bellies don't run on thin air. If a promoter isn't going to pay the full fee due to poor turnout, why AGREE on a fee in the first place?

Yeah man, I agree with you. If I pre-agree a fee with anyone, I pay it regardless if I'm going to lose money.

All I'm saying is that taking actual legal action is unlikely to happen for the sake of like 30. And like I said, there will definitely be a shit storm kicked up, and the promoter would get a bad reputation.

[Guest Exposure @ Lemon Tree]

If your band is with an agency or anything like that there's no way to get out of being registered, really. That said, it'll have it's benefits too - trips to service stations can then become 'business expenses.'

That's pretty much what I was getting at. I was including the likes of Copy Haho in the "more professional outfits" and I would fully have expected you guys to be doing the old tax returns.

My band doesn't make money, definitely doesn't. If we filled in tax returns we'd never be paying tax anyway!!

[black_matter]

If you've AGREED a 50 fee, and get paid 40% of that, I think you're more than entitled to create a shit storm. Vans and bellies don't run on thin air. If a promoter isn't going to pay the full fee due to poor turnout, why AGREE on a fee in the first place?

I would agree with this 100%. The only way to get better and further in the music industry is to create a revenue and to carry on in the industry whilst getting fucked over by small time promoters is not fair for all the work put in by the bands.

Just for the record though, i'm 100% not talking from experience or of any promoters locally.

Also, when does a band know they are of the stature to request written evidence of agreements? Should it be a flat out policy of touring bands to require written evidence?

[The Milner]

There is always Judge Judy

did you need to quote me twice to come up with that nugget of humour?

[FatHand]

I got the impression that this thread was about local bands rather than touring bands. I'd deal with touring/travelling bands in the same way but I'd probably put a guaranteed minimum fee that I'd be willing to pay out of my own promoter's pocket. It's the way I'd like to be dealt with when playing away from home. At least you can budget to some degree if you know how much your are going to get. Anything extra is a bonus, still providing that extra incentive to put some leg work in. Money makes the world go round (and pays for recordings, t-shirts, CDs etc).

[Guest Exposure @ Lemon Tree]

I would agree with this 100%. The only way to get better and further in the music industry is to create a revenue and to carry on in the industry whilst getting fucked over by small time promoters is not fair for all the work put in by the bands.

Just for the record though, i'm 100% not talking from experience or of any promoters locally.

Also, when does a band know they are of the stature to request written evidence of agreements? Should it be a flat out policy of touring bands to require written evidence?

I think in this day and age, you're going to have something written down (in an e-mail/myspace message/text message/whatever) - not what most people think of when they think of a contract, but by law, all you need for a contract to exist is offer and acceptance, and it's all written evidence that you can certainly use. A lot of business transactions (outside the music industry) are done these days by e-mail, and contract disputes would often involve print-outs of e-mails etc as evidence of what's been agreed.

I just can't see anyone taking people to court for the sake of 20/30 or whatever. Like I said above I don't actually think it's a problem, but I have heard the odd occasion when bands say they haven't been paid what was previously agreed.

[Adam Easy Wishes]

A lot of business transactions (outside the music industry) are done these days by e-mail, and contract disputes would often involve print-outs of e-mails etc as evidence of what's been agreed.

True to a certain extent, but contractual terms cannot be agreed by agreeing via e-mail.

A signature / scanned executed contract document can, however, but it's certainly not the safest practice. I would always insist on fully executed hard copies.

If an agreement is reached via e-mail it must be expressed verbally or written down in hard-copy before it's legally binding - e-mails do not stand up in court as a valid piece of evidence because they are far too easy to fake. The only exception to this would be if the e-mail is taken to court and both parties agree that they are as intended...however I doubt respective lawyers ever let this happen given that if they're in court then companies aren't going to want to be seen to be standing together on any matter.

[Guest Exposure @ Lemon Tree]

True to a certain extent, but contractual terms cannot be agreed by agreeing via e-mail.

A signature / scanned executed contract document can, however, but it's certainly not the safest practice. I would always insist on fully executed hard copies.

If an agreement is reached via e-mail it must be expressed verbally or written down in hard-copy before it's legally binding - e-mails do not stand up in court as a valid piece of evidence because they are far too easy to fake. The only exception to this would be if the e-mail is taken to court and both parties agree that they are as intended...however I doubt respective lawyers ever let this happen given that if they're in court then companies aren't going to want to be seen to be standing together on any matter.

Have to disagree with you. There is no requirement for a contract to be in writing generally. There are certain exceptions (mainly for heritable property). E-mails can be used as evidence of what has been agreed. It's not an ideal situation because as you say, they can be easily faked, but so can a written/signed contract.

An ideal situation is to get every single agreement down in hard copy and signed by both parties, but a fact of business (especially smaller businesses) is that a lot of things are agreed on the phone/e-mails etc and nothing ever gets signed.

[Adam Easy Wishes]

Have to disagree with you. There is no requirement for a contract to be in writing generally. There are certain exceptions (mainly for heritable property). E-mails can be used as evidence of what has been agreed. It's not an ideal situation because as you say, they can be easily faked, but so can a written/signed contract.

An ideal situation is to get every single agreement down in hard copy and signed by both parties, but a fact of business (especially smaller businesses) is that a lot of things are agreed on the phone/e-mails etc and nothing ever gets signed.

They can be used as evidence in the course of a legal argument, yes, however (I'll probably be wrong here), I would doubt that an e-mail has ever contributed to the outcome of a case directly. It's far too easy to attack from a lawyer's point of view.

An agreement reached via e-mail is not legally binding, and where smaller businesses perhaps do operate like that, I would assume it is taken in good faith that both parties are happy with it.

Yes, offer + acceptance = contract, however it is not the case that an e-mail acceptance deems the contract legally binding, because although the intent may be there, like I said above it is far too easy to attack should a dispute arise.

Did you study law, per chance?

[Guest Exposure @ Lemon Tree]

Did you study law, per chance?

I'm a trainee lawyer

It's a few years since I studied Contract Law at uni, but I think I'm right in saying that pretty much anything can constitue an offer and acceptance. E-mailed terms are much stronger than a verbal agreement, and it's long been recognised that verbal agreement is binding.

When there is no physical hard copy signed agreement, what constitutes the "contract" is pretty much everything else. The court would look at what's been said in e-mails/letters and try to find the intention of the parties.

(By the way - none of this is actually based on what I do at work - I work in Oil & Gas, and everything is always done by written contract. It's more based on what I studied at uni, and from cases of people I know who operate in smaller businesses etc)

[neepheid]

People who welch on any agreement, be it verbal or written have no honour. Yes, life gets in the way and circumstances change. However, just pretending that nothing's happening isn't the way ahead. The best weapon to combat the adversity of change is honest and open discussion.