Nfl

[Spoonie]

Let's not forget that a QB can look better or worse depending on the system he's playing in, his familiarity with that system, the strengths and priorities of the team and coaching staff, etc. Sanchez is playing in a team that is built on running the ball much more than is currently common within the NFL (last year the team was almost 50/50 with run/pass plays). With McCoy running the inside zone that Chip Kelly loves and doing it so well, it takes the pressure off Sanchez and the passing game. He's a very cerebral coach so rather than just battering teams to death with the run game when they load the box, he will take what's there, put his athletes in space and let Sanchez make relatively easy passes which helps everyone out. Spread the defenders out, find the holes and put your athletes in space. I was a fan of what he did as HC at Oregon and I'm a fan of what he's doing at Philly, despite being a Giants fan.

 

Montana looked like a total boss at the 49ers, but a lot of the passes he was throwing were short timing routes, exposing weak spots that Walsh had identified in the opposing defenses. He just happened to be the guy under center. That's not to say that he was talentless - far from it - but it definitely highlighted his physical abilities, used the guys around him and then his natural leadershipo abilities helped get them out of tight spots by staying calm, throwing a tonne of 5 yard slants to Taylor and letting him take them to the house!

[Captain America]

NEW HARBAUGH GIF

 

[colb]

I love that we've got the stable Harbaugh.

[ca_gere]

Let's not forget that a QB can look better or worse depending on the system he's playing in, his familiarity with that system, the strengths and priorities of the team and coaching staff, etc. Sanchez is playing in a team that is built on running the ball much more than is currently common within the NFL (last year the team was almost 50/50 with run/pass plays). With McCoy running the inside zone that Chip Kelly loves and doing it so well, it takes the pressure off Sanchez and the passing game. He's a very cerebral coach so rather than just battering teams to death with the run game when they load the box, he will take what's there, put his athletes in space and let Sanchez make relatively easy passes which helps everyone out. Spread the defenders out, find the holes and put your athletes in space. I was a fan of what he did as HC at Oregon and I'm a fan of what he's doing at Philly, despite being a Giants fan.

 

Montana looked like a total boss at the 49ers, but a lot of the passes he was throwing were short timing routes, exposing weak spots that Walsh had identified in the opposing defenses. He just happened to be the guy under center. That's not to say that he was talentless - far from it - but it definitely highlighted his physical abilities, used the guys around him and then his natural leadershipo abilities helped get them out of tight spots by staying calm, throwing a tonne of 5 yard slants to Taylor and letting him take them to the house!

 

No doubt Sanchez would look a fool playing in a pass first offense like the Lions or something but you play with what you have. If Chip Kelly didn't think Sanchez could fit into his scheme, he wouldn't have taken him. QBs are drilled day in day out on the playbook and are judged just as much on how well they know it, as they are their throwing ability, movement,etc. (i've been watching A LOT of Hard Knocks) so, whilst the Eagles offense is built on running, it still takes a good QB - as in a QB who knows the playbook, can lead the offense, call the right plays, make the right moves, etc - to carry out the gameplan. Just because his passes are easier doesn't necessarily make him look better. There are so many other ways the QB can get things wrong.

 

I like how Mark Sanchez inspires such interesting conversation.

[Captain America]

Never forget.

 

[Spoonie]

No doubt Sanchez would look a fool playing in a pass first offense like the Lions or something but you play with what you have. If Chip Kelly didn't think Sanchez could fit into his scheme, he wouldn't have taken him. QBs are drilled day in day out on the playbook and are judged just as much on how well they know it, as they are their throwing ability, movement,etc. (i've been watching A LOT of Hard Knocks) so, whilst the Eagles offense is built on running, it still takes a good QB - as in a QB who knows the playbook, can lead the offense, call the right plays, make the right moves, etc - to carry out the gameplan. Just because his passes are easier doesn't necessarily make him look better. There are so many other ways the QB can get things wrong.

 

I like how Mark Sanchez inspires such interesting conversation.

Just to be clear, I wasn't suggesting that Sanchez isn't a good QB - far from it, he's got bags of talent and his mechanics are solid. Quite the opposite really; I was more suggesting that a lot of people think that offensive success is just down to the QB and if the offense doesn't work, it's his fault. In reality, there's a lot more too it than that. The funny thing is that you're absolutely right when you talk about the quality of a QB being more than the physical, but there are still cases in the NFL where OCs and HCs will simplify their playbooks for their starting QBs, including givn gthem half-field reads and such like. It always strikes me as crazy that an NFL team might take their starting QB (one of only 32 in the world!) and decide that they need to strip the playbook back that far, to enable him to get started, but it;s the reality in some cases. I'm pretty sure that happened with Cam Newton in his first season. He was such a physical specimen that they couldn't afford not to have him out there, but his understanding wasn't yet sophisticated enough to allow him to read the entire field of play during a pass!

 

When I'm talking about easy vs difficult passes, I was also thinking beyond the difficulty of the route itself. For example, it's generally considered that throwing a slant to your back side, or a screen are about the easiest throws physically, whereas throwing a deep Out is one of the hardest throws in the game, but I'm also talking about things like throwing to open receivers by creating space and putting defenders in a bind, using rub routes, or even using things like Choice or Option routes, where the receiver changes his route depending on the alignment of the defender. When you start using those sorts of things (and obviously they take a lot of practice) you make it much less likely that the QB will be throwing the ball into traffic or into tight windows between defenders, which reduces the likelihood for turnover and gives the receiver more room to adjust and make the QB look good.

 

Really interesting conversation tho! Another thing that your comment brought to mind was the debate that I've had over the past few years with the last two guys who were OCs at one of the clubs where I coach. One believed in coaching the QB to such a level that he could call all of his own plays from the line of scrimmage and the other felt that he was better placed to call them from the sideline than the QB. Obviously the level is light years apart and the playbooks much more basic, but the principle is the same. It is very rare, even in the NFL for QBs to be trusted with calling their own plays. Brady and P. Manning are the obvious examples of players who have that level of trust, but most don't because the OCs job is on the line if the team doesn't perform. Generally they're engaged in dialoguie with the OC or his representative on the sideline if he's in the booth, about what he's seeing, what he things would/wouldn't work but the play itself is normally determined by the OC.

[ca_gere]

I totally knew what you meant and didn't think you were suggesting Sanchez was bad. (why am I sticking up for him so much?!). You raise a very good point r.e. QB input on Offense not being the be all end all.

 

As for the changing up of the system to suit a certain QB, I assume the same often happens when a franchise gets its hands on a freak WR or RB? AJ Green comes to mind. So much was going through him his first couple of years. Surely deep routes wasn't the OC's philosophy, rather he was playing to his strengths. I'd also assume that the best offenses do a bit of both... bending the playbook to get the ball into the hands of their most capable players, without losing touch of their core gameplan.

 

The melding of personnel and playbook is one of the things that makes American Football so interesting. I'm just throwing numbers arbitrarily but it's almost like the game is comprised of 60% tactics, 20% carrying out the job, 20% individual brilliance. That's probably unique in sport. It's not like in football where you could probably stick 11 superb individuals in any order and they'd beat 11 ok ones. I'm simplifying obviously, but the point i'm making is that personnel outweigh tactics in a lot of cases in football. Players are better, therefore teams are better. 

[Spoonie]

In interesting question again! They say in football coaching circles that "It's not about the Xs and Os, it's about the Jimmys and Joes!" And that is true at our level, it's true at High School and College in the states but it's probably slightly less true at the NFL, and the reason is that every single person on every single roster is an elite athlete. Even the worst players in the NFL are absolute phenoms. Take a guy like JaMarcus Russell who was a total bust. He could throw the ball through the uprights from the half way line, from his knees, when he was a freshman in college!! So it is MUCH harder to find mismatches with personnel than it is at lower levels. The way that you find and exploit those mismatches, is by having a deep understanding of your opposition, your own guys abilities and creating the opportunities through alignment, play design, etc. So when you hear commentators talking about Tight Ends in particular, where they're too big for DBs but too fast for LBs, that's the kind of thing you exploit. And that explains why guys like Gronk, Davis, Graham, etc have becomes such big features in the NFL.

 

It's a fascinating game for exactly the reasons you describe. A good friend of mine is currently a defensive assistant at Mississippi State, who are ranked #1 in the NCAA for the first time in their history! On Saturday they play against Alabama, the team who I follow and with one of the best HCs of all time, Nick Saban. Coach has spent the best part of two weeks breaking down film of Alabama's offense, looking for clues in alignment, line splits, angle of shoulders, foot position, whatever he can find to give a key to what play they might be expecting. He's not doing it alone, he's one of a whole team who are doing it, but they did the same thing against Auburn, who have one of the most innovative offensive minds in the game with their HC Gus Malzahm and the level of detail he was getting into was phenomenal. It culminated in a win and a huge part of it is down to that preparation. You see certain down and distance tendencies, which narrow their potential play calls, then you see a certain alignment which narrows it further based on film study and then you roll the dice and try to call something which is gonna make you a play. It's an incredible game of cat and mouse and it's the reason I love the sport.

[ca_gere]

[colb]

[ca_gere]

I think the logistics of having a 33 team league is what will doom NFL UK.

 

Isn't it supposed to be one of the fodder teams that are moving, rather than a new franchise? Jaguars I thought.

[Spoonie]

If it happens, they will lift and shift a team (probably the Jags) to London. But I agree, the understanding of the game is more than just the visual spectacle. I remember being really into chess when I was young and I would read magazines and they'd discuss games where someone had used a certain opening and it was the same opening that had been used by someone in 1978 or whatever. That's the closest thing I can relate it to. And the depth you can get to with your knowledge and understanding is staggering, not only in terms of stats and players, but in terms of formations and schemes, tendencies and scenarios.

 

They play it at high school and below in Mexico and Japan surprisingly, but I agree with what you're saying. It's that understanding that Friday is HS ball, Sat is college and Sunday is NFL, then Monday night football as a bonus. And when you look at a team like the Jets with Rex Ryan, you think of his dad and all the crazy shit he used to call and the way that his style and tastes influenced his son and the tendencies that creates. And dudes like Dick Lebeau who have been innovating with the same size of field and the same number of players and coming up with all kinds of new and crazy shit every time the offenses come up with a new iteration. Even the backroom stuff is incredible. Read The War Room about Belichick's approach to scouting and drafting and the way that's spread with his guys moving on. Incredible stuff!

[colb]

Isn't it supposed to be one of the fodder teams that are moving, rather than a new franchise? Jaguars I thought.

Just spent 60 million doing up their stadium, I imagine they're locked into Jacksonville for a good few years.

[colb]

Read The War Room about Belichick's approach to scouting and drafting and the way that's spread with his guys moving on. Incredible stuff!

It's not a bad book - but the Patriots "dynasty" hasn't exactly done well since moving on. Pioli was a flop in KC, and Dimitroff looks like he's getting the boot at the end of the season (with Pioli in tow no doubt).

[Spoonie]

It's more the process I was talking about, in terms of the level of effort that goes on in that specific aspect of the game, which most people don't ever see.

 

But looking at it, Piolo had one good year with KC really, but the Falcons have certainly improved since Dimitroff arrived. They went 56-24 in his first fivefull seasons, vs 35-45 the five before he arrived. The wheels seem t have fallen off last season and this, and they've not yet got it done in the playoffs, but that's only 4 losses fewer than the Pats over the same time frame and they have been incredibly consistent since Belichick took over.

[colb]

I'm not convinced that Bellichick is all that great at drafting. His best players tend to come from trades.

Brady was a fluke, Vollmer and Gronk have been great, Jerod Mayo took 4 years to get good - after being picked 10th. Apart from that there's not been a whole lot to get excited about in the last few years. Spikes maybe?

[Captain America]

It's unsure who would move to London but the 33 team league isn't much of an issue.  Everytime they expanded by one team so they've had odd numbers before.  It just means more divisional games for the 5 team division.  It was done in 99 when the Browns came back.

[Spoonie]

I'm not convinced that Bellichick is all that great at drafting. His best players tend to come from trades.

Brady was a fluke, Vollmer and Gronk have been great, Jerod Mayo took 4 years to get good - after being picked 10th. Apart from that there's not been a whole lot to get excited about in the last few years. Spikes maybe?

It's a fair point. He's good at getting the best from under valued players, but as you say, usually once they're already in the league

[Captain America]

It's a fair point. He's good at getting the best from under valued players, but as you say, usually once they're already in the league

 

I think we're underrating some of their players.  No one drafts that many all pro stars every draft, Pats have got a lot of good players recently.

 

Mcourty, Solder, Vereen, Ridley, Gronk, Spikes, Mayo, Hernandez (he's a murderer but he was a great hybrid TE), Chung, Vollmer, Edelmen. Hightower.

 

All solid NFL starters, with a couple of Pro Bowlers.  That's only the last 5 years or so I can remember.

[colb]

He's definitely a solid drafter - he does very well at trading high picks, taking good prospects in bulk in the lower rounds and giving them time to develop.

 

I'm just saying that I don't buy into the myth that's grown up around him as some kind of draft savant.

[Captain America]

Jesus, the Bill offense needs to help their DLine.  The DLine is doing work and the offence just cannot score touchdowns.

[Captain America]

Sky was showing Philly Green Bay last night, what a car crash.  From the first play.

 

Philly have to be the worst 7-3 team I can remember seeing.

[colb]

I watched Bears Vikings - interesting watching football with no clock, must have been horrific for the coaching staffs.

[ca_gere]

Raiders finally won a game. Not for the lack of trying to lose. That last 3rd down when Alex Smith gets sacked and about 5 Raiders are still celebrating when the Chiefs are getting to the line of scrimmage... total bonehead move.

 

@colb, that Jets book arrived. I'm only about 100 pages in but really liking it so far. Good call.

[Captain America]

Justin Tuck payed for his overall useless free agent contract with that timeout though.

Veteran savvy.