The Lemon Tree "Drinking in the Last Chance Saloon"

[unknown pleasures]

Originally posted by DR DRAKE:

HEY... I RUN A LTD COMPANY! THINK I'LL POP DOWN TO THE COUNCIL AND GET THEM TO HAND OVER SEVERAL THOUSANDS OF POUNDS TO MAKE DRAKE'S A LITTLE SMARTER!!! Amazing that the money is always found when it's needed!!!!! So how exactly does a Ltd company recieve funding without going through the usual million months of form filling and dead phone lines?! Or is it because it isn't effectively a ltd company yet? All in the timing huh?!

No I'm not pissed off!!!!!!!!!! RIGHT!!!!!!

I think the Ltd thing is a bit of a red herring. After all, Accord is also a limited company ... and it's wholly owned by the Council.

There's hundreds of potential reasons for doing it, on both sides. The black arts of accountancy, eh?

[Graeme]

I thought they had to be a charity to get SAC money and the like.

[soundian]

Originally posted by DR DRAKE:

HEY... I RUN A LTD COMPANY! THINK I'LL POP DOWN TO THE COUNCIL AND GET THEM TO HAND OVER SEVERAL THOUSANDS OF POUNDS TO MAKE DRAKE'S A LITTLE SMARTER!!! Amazing that the money is always found when it's needed!!!!! So how exactly does a Ltd company recieve funding without going through the usual million months of form filling and dead phone lines?! Or is it because it isn't effectively a ltd company yet? All in the timing huh?!

No I'm not pissed off!!!!!!!!!! RIGHT!!!!!!

I refer you to my equally sarcastic post.

[soundian]

Originally posted by unknown pleasures:

I think the Ltd thing is a bit of a red herring. After all, Accord is also a limited company ... and it's wholly owned by the Council.

There's hundreds of potential reasons for doing it, on both sides. The black arts of accountancy, eh?

But as far as funding and taxes go, Ltd is a completely different black art to charitable trust.

[chilli]

I sympathise

The Cull has started, just the same as where I work;

[ragudave]

Originally posted by unknown pleasures:

I think the Ltd thing is a bit of a red herring. After all, Accord is also a limited company ... and it's wholly owned by the Council.

There's hundreds of potential reasons for doing it, on both sides. The black arts of accountancy, eh?

The LTree cant be a real charity. I mean they dont have people with clipboards and bibs standing outside HMV bugging the happiness of passers by for a wee direct debit....

Yep the black arts of a/countancy, corporate finance, public sector politics, charity and corporate law and arts funding are a little less than transparent. Of course we could privitise everything - I mean its not as if PLCs get large subsidies. Well apart from Stagecoach, Firstgroup and National Express to name but three....

[unknown pleasures]

Originally posted by soundian:

But as far as funding and taxes go, Ltd is a completely different black art to charitable trust.

Oh, I know. I'm just saying that, just because it's now a Ltd company, it doesn't mean it no longer has a relationship with the Council.

I mean AECC is a Ltd company, but the Council almost exclusively funded its refurbishment.

The Council put up funding to support a new owner for Richards.

If you're a farmer, the EU will pay you not to grow things. The list goes on and on.

[Jim Stax]

And the wee guys get trampled underfoot for believing, and doing the right thing! (Your post was inspired Ian)! Where did all our money go by the way? (I know... Very simplistic but what the hell)

[Biz]

Sad to hear the Lemontree is financially up the creek again,it is expensive to get in and the price of a decent pint is rediculous but at least they have decent toliets with taps that work without soaking your midriff like in Dr Drakes,and you can rest your arms on the bar or tables without getting stuck,and they hardly ever use that dry ice, which is great for hiding the fact that the venue is pretty empty,but absolutely horrendous for my health.I was once very ill for 3 days due to the excessive dry ice in The Triple Kirks..

The Lemontree is great it caters foe a very varied clientele and although expensive ,still worth every penny.

[Dizzy Storm]

If I/the bar and many other independant venues, had money thrown at me/them from all angles then we too would be able to afford to buy tables that didn't contain their own gravitational pull: taps that adhered to the laws of taps (try using the one that doesn't soak you midrift) and I 'would' spend a fortune on dry ice so that Biz would loose his voice and not be able to heckle nonsense every five minutes. Amazing what can/could be done with public money huh!!!

[unknown pleasures]

yeah, but you'd also have to employ a experimental sewing and crochet development officer ... or something.

thing is, Drakes and the LT are, if you ask me, the two best venues in town - and two of my favourites anywhere ... but for completely different reasons. selfish, but I like them the way they are.

although if someone could arrange for Drakes to be as close to my house as the Tree is, that would be handy. cheers.

[Alan Cynic]

I vote Shawn the Ox for experimental sewing & crochet development officer.

[andylemontree]

I'd just like to clarify one or two things.

The Lemon Tree has changed status from one non-profit arrangement to another and remains a registered charity.

The reason The Lemon Tree is publicly funded is to support worthwhile activities that cannot be expected to pay for themselves - drama classes, special needs theatre, free music performances, kids workshops and theatre and certain specialist areas of music such as jazz and world music etc.

Overall, the music programme makes money and cross-subsidises the less commercial aspects of our remit from both the City Council and the Scottish Arts Council. While employer confidentiality prevents me from going into this in more detial, the current situation is all the more frustrating as the music programme is currently achieving record attendance and box office figures.

Initial steps to rectify things have now thankfully been taken and we are now very optimistic that we will be back on an even keel within the next few months. In the meantime, there should be no appreciable effect on the quality and quantity of the music programme.

[soundian]

Originally posted by andylemontree:

I'd just like to clarify one or two things.

The Lemon Tree has changed status from one non-profit arrangement to another and remains a registered charity.

The reason The Lemon Tree is publicly funded is to support worthwhile activities that cannot be expected to pay for themselves - drama classes, special needs theatre, free music performances, kids workshops and theatre and certain specialist areas of music such as jazz and world music etc.

Overall, the music programme makes money and cross-subsidises the less commercial aspects of our remit from both the City Council and the Scottish Arts Council. While employer confidentiality prevents me from going into this in more detial, the current situation is all the more frustrating as the music programme is currently achieving record attendance and box office figures.

Initial steps to rectify things have now thankfully been taken and we are now very optimistic that we will be back on an even keel within the next few months. In the meantime, there should be no appreciable effect on the quality and quantity of the music programme.

I know the Evening Express is hardly the fount of all knowledge but they said it was now a Ltd co. How can it have charitable status at the same time? Or have the EE got it horribly wrong again and should stick to reporting cats stuck up trees?

You say the music programme makes money which cross-subsidises the less commercial aspects. As a tax payer I'm quite happy to subsidise the Lemon Tree program, a mere spit in the ocean compared to the overall budget my poll tax pays for, and a worthy contribution, but 140,000 loss is not a spit in the ocean to all the other venues in Aberdeen .

That's what's pissing people off, no other venue in trouble would be given a penny by the council if they were (they know this cos they mostly are) in debt and everyone involved lives on the bones of their arse to make sure these venues don't go under. It's not as if they don't give an eclectic mix of music either.

Rant rant rant but I'm sorry, I don't see where it's fair at all.

Is it cos most independent venues can't afford to pay someone to fill out endless forms all day, which you seem to need to do to get any external funding?

p.s. I hope that if anyone loses their job at the LT it's the people who messed it up, not the people who make it work.

p.p.s. Record attendance and box office figures haven't been translated into record break-evens. Why?

Oops, Jim already asked that.

[Jim Stax]

As above!!! Wouldn't usually get vexed but...

And to the those that 'do' their best at the LT... More power!

[chilli]

Its the Public versus the Private sector argument all over again. If its public & seen worthwhile in in areas where decisions are made, then funding will be made ie Scottish Opera another 5m subsidy, but WHY should a minority art form with a generally privledged audience get public funding yet again, when their audience have the capabilty of sticking their hands in their bulging wallets?

Aberdeen I believe is not meeting its artistic quota (monetary) in comparison to the Central Belt, so funding the variance in the LT is very welcome, providing it meets its commitment to be eclectic & subsidise minority events. So good luck to resolving the blight & hope things become settled & bubbly again soon.

The private music venues in Aberdeen should be applauded for what they are doing

especially those owners who bring artists to the city when normally make their usual stop off points Glasgow & Edinburgh. I believe even the much maligned Dundee sees arts as a way of bringing better quality academia to their fair city. Perhaps the way forward is NETWORKING like minded venues in all four cities & therefore reducing possible costs & increasing quality at the same time?

two hats

Mike

[andylemontree]

More clarification then...

As I said before, the music programme does make money overall and is in pretty good health financially. The other areas of our work don't, and aren't designed to, hence the subsidy (including that contributed from the music programme).

However, that side of our remit clearly hasn't been managed properly and has led to our current predicament. It's also very important to note that any extra assistance from the City Council over and above our annual funding (the quoted 140000) will be in the form of a loan and will have to be paid back.

I'm not sure how it works legally but the Lemon Tree remains a non-profit charity. It doesn't mean we can't make money (and we'll have to in order to pay back that loan) just that it has to be re-invested back into the organisation to further our work.

And you think you're annoyed about it...

[Dizzy Storm]

8o

[The Ghost Of Fudge]

hmmmm.

i'm not sure if that's classed as wasting bandwidth. i may have to inform the godfather of aberdeen-music.com ......

[betamax]

Originally posted by andylemontree:

The reason The Lemon Tree is publicly funded is to support worthwhile activities that cannot be expected to pay for themselves - drama classes, special needs theatre, free music performances, kids workshops and theatre and certain specialist areas of music such as jazz and world music etc.

worthy things for sure (apart from jazz...) and tres worthy of public funding imo - unlike most other things that are publicly funded (coppers, traffic wardens, councils etc)

still dont know why its such a pricey place to drink ?(

[misterdale]

Originally posted by Biz:

The Lemontree is great it caters foe a very varied clientele and although expensive ,still worth every penny.

Here Here!! although it's not THAT expensive.

[Cloud]

Originally posted by soundian:

I know the Evening Express is hardly the fount of all knowledge but they said it was now a Ltd co. How can it have charitable status at the same time? Or have the EE got it horribly wrong again and should stick to reporting cats stuck up trees?

It's entirely possible to have charitable status and be limited by guarentee at the same time - if I'm right in thinking this, basically what the LT have done is change from a Trust to a Ltd company - while retaining charitable status. As long as they keep to the charity rules, then there's not a problem. As I understand it, as long as the venue doesn't make a profit for it's owners/members and is for the good of the general public, then charitable status can stay.

I suspect liability is the reason behind the change, though.

[andylemontree]

It's actually a coincidence that our current financial difficulties arose simultaneously with the changeover from trust to limited company. That process has been in the pipeline for around two years as part of the Advancement programme we're going through supported by the Scottish Arts Council and just happened to reach fruition as the shit hit the fan. I can undestand people putting 2 and 2 together but the two things are genuinely unconnected.