Independence

[The Milner]

its not what you know its who you know

or who you shag

[Intravenous]

mind u if scotland does get independence we could see history repeating itself with the scots squabbling amongst themselves so much that the english will have to come in and sort it out (again!)

Did they? I'm not contradicting your point just asking for the history. I don't know much about the history inbetween James I and just before the First World War...so did Scotland become independant again after that? Sorry for my ignorance :O

[framheim]

I refuse to show my passport/driving licence at any border crossing in the uk EVER

well that's irrelevent as such checks on land borders within the EU are illegal.

[Frosty Jack]

My guess is that he's sleeping with the Home Secretary.

Was. It was all a bit of a mix-up a while back apparently. That nice Mr Blunkett actually told his secretary that he wanted a BJ...

*he still doesn't know...*

[Cloud]

well that's irrelevent as such checks on land borders within the EU are illegal.

No they're not - only customs checks were formally abolished. They're strictly speaking illegal, but it only refers to the systematic checks on borders, but stops based on suspicions are still legal. You also still have to slow down to cross the border on a lot of EU crossings. It's apparently a favoured game of the French to stop cars just down the road from the Belgian border, particularly ones with UK numberplates.

It should also be noted that the UK has pretty much ignored the laws on customs checks - ignoring the blatant abuses at ports, I've also seen them manning the Blue (EU) Lane in airports despite being completely illegal to do so.

Immigration checks are still perfectly legal, though dependent on whether the country has implemented the Schengen Treaty or not. I'm not too sure what checks can be carried out in the Schengen area once you've entered it from outside, but countries are free to suspend Schengen as they see fit (Germany suspended it forthe World Cup 2006, Portugal for Euro 2004, France just after 7/7 and so on).

Chances are that if an independent Scotland becomes a reality, we will continue to be part of the Common Travel Area that covers the IoM, the Channel Islands, the UK and Ireland. There wouldn't be any real reason to control passengers at the border - and I'm sure if the UK can trust Ireland to carry out checks, then we can trust England not to screw it up for us.

[Larsen B]

I am mostly in favour of Scottish Indepdence. Largely becuase I believe Scotland is a more forward thinking country (with the exception of old firm fans). There could be a real chance to make social progress and improve the living standards of Scottish people through indepdence. We could become politically more like a Scandanavian country, who are usaully said to have the highest standard of living in the world.

Explain to me how i personally, as a Celtic fan, am not a forward thinking Scot?

[GraemeC]

well that's irrelevent as such checks on land borders within the EU are illegal.

It actually hacks me off that you can pass between member countries on mainland europe without even a cursory glance, but try flying or taking the ferry to mainland europe without a passport.....

[Guest Callum, Underflow]

I've never been so torn on who to vote for. I usually vote lid dems but recently i'm swaying towards SNP. I would never have voted for it solely on oil reasons but with renewable energy coming to the fore (Scotland haveing the best natural resources in western europe) and don't want to see our wee country being wrecked to produce energy for england (selfish i know). This renewable energy can also provide some of the short fall in money someone was talking about before. Also instead of comparing Scotland to Scandanavia it my be better to compare us with the Rep of ireland. They seem to be doing really well for themselves now after joining the euro and have a better standard of living than we do (apart from the cost of beer).

[Shaki]

Explain to me how i personally, as a Celtic fan, am not a forward thinking Scot?

You're Irish.

[Sam_b]

. I think Scotland (along with Northern Ireland and Wales), get a raw deal in British politics, which has become a consequence of being controlled by a Government who has it's interests firmly in it's own soil

If that is the case, then why does Scotland have more MPs per constituents than England? Similarly, we have the advantage of having a parliament which lets us have a hell of a lot of freedoms, much more then say the likes of people in the North of England.

We also have to remember the amount of funding that Scotland has got in the past from Westminster...its not that bad a deal.

[Chris]

We also have to remember the amount of funding that Scotland has got in the past from Westminster...its not that bad a deal.

The funding scotland gets from westminster is it's "share" of money raised in Scotland through taxes, oil etc. It's actually a pretty shitty deal.

[Larsen B]

You're Irish.

Only an eighth.

[Cloud]

It actually hacks me off that you can pass between member countries on mainland europe without even a cursory glance, but try flying or taking the ferry to mainland europe without a passport.....

Not all member countries (at the moment). All of the 2004 succession countries have still to implement the Schengen agreement, though it's been signed. Fair enough, the checks these days are nothing but a glance (late night bus from Riga to Warsaw, two border checks, total time spent looking at passport 10 seconds), but they're still in place.

Strictly speaking, we would have to take our passports under the Schengen agreement anyway as a lot of mainland Europe countries have the compulsory carrying of ID - and our only valid state ID is a passport.

The only benefit of the proposed ID cards will be to allow us to travel in the EU without needing to bring our passport.

[Shaki]

Only an eighth.

OK. You're allowed to vote.

I was taking the piss of general small mindedness, wasn't having a go...

[delboy]

I think we're actually getting more back these days. Mind you... overall we've given more to England than we've ever had back.

My only negative against it would be to question the economy for when the oil runs out in around 60 years. A lot of companies are beginning to drill abroad now though.

you know the older i get the more cynical i get, in 60 years time i'll be in the same position as ronnie barker or john peel or a very confused 97 year old! i do see your point however!

[framheim]

I think we're actually getting more back these days. Mind you... overall we've given more to England than we've ever had back.

My only negative against it would be to question the economy for when the oil runs out in around 60 years. A lot of companies are beginning to drill abroad now though.

but that's a question worth asking of the current government as well. what are they doing to secure the economic viability of the north east with declining oil returns? fuck. all.

[framheim]

What would you like them to do?

hmm, dunno. i'm not in the energy business. i'm just trying to prompt discussion. it does seem from my perspective that nothing much is done to prepare the north east for the day when oil runs out, perhaps i'd just have them openly discussing it so that folks round here start to get used to the idea. start looking into how to keep those skills and manpower in the north east somehow.

[Larsen B]

My sister who works as a completions engineer claims they'll still keep lots of offices in Aberdeen even thought they will be drilling elsewhere. Obviously Aberdeen would still be taking a massive blow though.

[JaseyBoi]

My sister who works as a completions engineer claims they'll still keep lots of offices in Aberdeen even thought they will be drilling elsewhere. Obviously Aberdeen would still be taking a massive blow though.

What company does she work for?..As i only know of one female who does this in the entire field of completions........Oh and aberdeen will always have oil BASED comanys aslong as BP and shell stay...When they go all oil company offices will go.....Oh and are we talking actual oil comapnys here or oil service companys?.As lets face it we have never been rich because we have oil ..We became rich because we provide services within the oil industry.......And we always will now.......Its not really anything to do with what country can provide these services cheaper now...Aberdeen has years and years of experience and our work to these oil comapnys is second to none...Hense why we have some of the biggest names in oil based in aberdeen.......

My tuppence worth regarding that ONE post lol

[framheim]

interesting story out today:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6070866.stm

[Cloud]

What would you like them to do?

I'd have liked them to ringfence the windfall tax for use in Scotland, for a start. I would also liked to have seen the creation of a fund (ala Norway) to ensure that we keep on seeing the benefits beyond the end of oil in the North Sea.

I have a feeling, however, that there'll be North Sea oil and gas for a long time yet, especially as it's an European resource. It may not be viable at the minute to get at some of it, but when the easier stuff runs out, there's bound to be demand to get all of it out.

[Larsen B]

What company does she work for?..As i only know of one female who does this in the entire field of completions........Oh and aberdeen will always have oil BASED comanys aslong as BP and shell stay...When they go all oil company offices will go.....Oh and are we talking actual oil comapnys here or oil service companys?.As lets face it we have never been rich because we have oil ..We became rich because we provide services within the oil industry.......And we always will now.......Its not really anything to do with what country can provide these services cheaper now...Aberdeen has years and years of experience and our work to these oil comapnys is second to none...Hense why we have some of the biggest names in oil based in aberdeen.......

My tuppence worth regarding that ONE post lol

I'm quite ignorant about the whole affair, so instead of answering your questions I'm actually just gonna say nothing for fear of Jaseyboi reprisals.

[JaseyBoi]

I'm quite ignorant about the whole affair, so instead of answering your questions I'm actually just gonna say nothing for fear of Jaseyboi reprisals.

Damnit dude :) .....I really should use more emotions ....Totaly wasnt having a go ....Ive changed my ways after my stint in bannedland......My makeup with the dude that got me banned made me realise not everyone on this board is as tardy as they make out :o (you feel the love phil? )

Anywho back to the independace debate.......I honestly believe WHEN scotland gets its independace will be when our economy isnt as strong as it is or has been in the past.......Why would a nation want to part with a smaller nation that brings in so much revenue......If we had been giving independace years ago it would have been a good things but now im not so sure.......

Also most statistics are uk based like unemployment and such...England dont want to be seen as a lazy nation so stats can help by sticking uk on them not just england......

[framheim]

couple of new stories out today which are quite interesting:

http://www.theherald.co.uk/politics/72783.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/6079026.stm

is it just me or is there a bigger deal about independence now than before any other election of recent memory? seems to be a news story every couple of days about it.

[Cloud]

is it just me or is there a bigger deal about independence now than before any other election of recent memory? seems to be a news story every couple of days about it.

I think it may be because there's a very real possibility that the next parliament will be a very complicated affair - Labour are guaranteed 30-35 seats, but after that, there is real questions over how many seats the others might get. I don't personally think that the pro-Independence parties will gain enough seats to force through a referendum, but there is a very real prospect of the SNP doing well enough to become the largest party, if not the governing one.

At the minute, the Lab-Lib coalition has a majority of 5 - and I think that will dwindle down to nothing. My gut feeling is that Labour will join forces with the Conservatives in order to hold onto power - but it will be a very, very thin majority in the end.

All we really need is a independence-minded centre-right party to really shake things up, though