music theory

[Alan Cynic]

I tend to side with Neil Ex here. I know next to no music theory....all those tadpoles impaled on phone lines upset me. Three chords and the right attitude are all that's needed to be creative.

I can admire musical virtuosity, but am rarely moved by it in the way that I am by a simple, but heartfelt song.

[bryn]

GOFONES go by things that sound good before things that are technically right. GOFONES beleive that learning music theory actually enhances stupidity' date=' therefore making the idiot even more dumb. GOFONES say by learning music theory, you get into a habit of trying to work out things that work, rather than experimenting and listening. GOFONES will bite your balls off, you ignoram[i']ass. Look at The Strokes, I bet you they all know music theory. That's why they play predictable music. Instead of mucking about on his guitar, the guy goes, 'oh a C and an E and a G will work here' and he writes it down next to a treble clef ,whatever, then he'll play it and think to himself 'it's ok, but I can't think of anything that will go better, wait, I'll try playing it in a different sequence', then he'll find something that's slightly better and say to himself, 'oh that's a bit better, it's still not great, but i can't think of anything else, i'll go check in my music theory book', then he checks in his music theory book and sees that a D will work aswell, so he tries adding a D but can't get anything good, mainly because he's lost his ear for music, but he still has it a little bit, he then says to himself, 'oh I'll just stick with that bit I came up with because my music theory book says nothing else will work, and my music theory book says 'dischords are strictly forbidden in pop music''.

There's some music theory for you all.

Thats bullshit, nearly every rock band ever has gone with the non theoretical approach. 'GOFONES go by what sounds good blah blah; The strokes use theory so theyre shit.' No the strokes probably know bugger all about theory or using their ears, thats why they sound shit and predicatable and boring. Composers use a theoretical approach. I can write music with basslines and guitar lines (which have been tried and tested) without touching an instrument, not by sticking to harmony rules but just hearing the parts in my head. For some reason I find this approach gives you far more articulate and pronounced rythms plus a whole wedding celebration of other musical advantages. In theory, with a couple of books at your side, you could write some insane music, music you wouldnt ever see or realise sitting in your bedroom stuck in a rut.

[Alan Cynic]

I can write music with basslines and guitar lines (which have been tried and tested) without touching an instrument' date=' not by sticking to harmony rules but just hearing the parts in my head. For some reason I find this approach gives you far more articulate and pronounced rythms plus a whole wedding celebration of other musical advantages. In theory, with a couple of books at your side, you could write some insane music, music you wouldnt ever see or [i']realise sitting in your bedroom stuck in a rut.

I think Neil Ex wants to avoid "tried and tested" stuff....it's the untried and dangerous things which excite him, living on the edge as he does, and I sympathise with his view (despite sticking to 3 major chords and one minor myself!).

Sorry if I'm misinterpreting you, Neil!!

[bryn]

I think Neil Ex wants to avoid "tried and tested" stuff....it's the untried and dangerous things which excite him' date=' living on the edge as he does,QUOTE']

Which is equally attainable if not more by a theoretical approach

[Alan Cynic]

You could be right (in theory anyway!)

[Guest Neubeatz]

Learning music theory is ok, there are aspects of it which can be used in a universal language way with others who have learned the same theory, but different cultures have different theorum, so cross theory is possible for those practising,as well as alternative theory.

Playing covers on the other hand will fuck and corrupt an artists natural creativity, a "virgin artist" is the purest creator, but they are few and far between.

Does anyone know any artists who have never played a cover???

[Lawy Lawson:Attorney]

Does anyone know any artists who have never played a cover???

I find ad verbatim copies of other people's music the dullest thing on earth. Being able to "do the solo from Enter Sandman" just doesn't interest me and I can't be arsed learning other people's music. I'm still shit though. I really should learn some covers just to see "theory in practice".

[Guest neil ex]

Aye Alan, along the right lines. I know you're a fan of what we, GOFONES, are doing. It's very flattering indeed.

[Guest Electric Tibet]

anyone that makes music is aware of music theory at some intuitive level.

Just like how studying linguistics wont make you a poet, any poet must have some grasp of how to express themselves.

[Guest neil ex]

I find ad verbatim copies of other people's music the dullest thing on earth. Being able to "do the solo from Enter Sandman" just doesn't interest me and I can't be arsed learning other people's music. I'm still shit though. I really should learn some covers just to see "theory in practice".

Regarding covers, I reckon people should try and work out music themselves rather than just read the sheet music to perfect a song note for note. It doesn't matter how off you are, it's your interpretation of the song. One of my favourite cover versions is Jimi Hendrix's version of All Along the Watchtower. It's completely his own version, his own style.

I wouldn't ever learn someone's music now so I could practise it. I'd learn it because i like the piece of music, simple as. I'm as good a guitarist technically as I ever will be.

Surely you want to learn some people's music because you like it? I don't know if I'd ever perform a cover version infront of people, but I sit in my room with a guitar and sing along.

[Guest lime ruined my life]

neil ex, i think its quite niave of you to say that music theory says that dischords are forbidden in pop music. music theory doesn't put any rules on music, but does state a bunch of guidelines which may prove useful to you. infact, id interpret one of the principles of music theory to be that the wonder of music lies between the contrast of dissonance and conssonance. be that within a chord, or within a chord sequence, or a passing note, whatever.

your being totally stupid by saying music theorys useless, sorry. it just seems really really dumb to say that.

[Doc Ascension]

Music theory is immensely helpful in songwriting - i mean i've learning stuff all the time (by no means have I bothered with much...).

It really helps get songs written quicker, and thinking up rhythm lines is easier when you know more...

However, its too easy to get too "Mechanical" and "manufacturered" if you rely too much. I find it best to see what happens and use theory to back up what sounds good and help guide it a little. But I wouldn't pick a chord prog then look up all the scales i can solo/melody over it!

[PaulDW]

I am of the crew that is not really into music theory, I have a some knowledge of it as I used to learn Piano and I am getting voice coaching just now. But I don't rely on it, and I write music down in either chord notation or tab because thats what a lot of the guitarists/bassists use (if they use anything at all other than their ears), they don't use standard notation. I dare say if required I would write it all out proper if necessary, but I usually get by fine without it. I think its a matter of personal choice, I am always learning bits of theory, and Im glad I know what I do know, but in general I don't think it has overly affected my songwriting or performing... I still continue to write and bring in ideas like I always have. (unless of course, because I know soem theory, Im thinking bout it sub-concsiously)

In terms of Higher and Advanced Higher music though... The majority of my theory knowledge was learnt after I passed both of those with A's... So I don't think its as necessary there, as long as you have ability, creativity and some self discipline to actually do the work!

[ThE bAsS MeKaNiK]

Electric Tibet wrote:

anyone that makes music is aware of music theory at some intuitive level.

agree 100%. how can it be possible to play any instrument to any style and NOT know some form of theory??? Can you keep in time/same key/etc.......

knowing theory and other peoples works are immensley helpful because it opens up your mind to ideas (like rhythms, key changes, tempo changes) that otherwise you may never have thought of. i reckon playing some covers can be a good thing because its always good to play in another style from normal. it means you will always be more open to adopting a style for some of your own songs which may not have occured to you, therefore giving that piece a distinctly different feel.

of course, if all you learn are 3 chord pop/rock songs this may not help that much......

[The Milner]

Electric Tibet wrote:

agree 100%. how can it be possible to play any instrument to any style and NOT know some form of theory??? Can you keep in time/same key/etc.......

knowing theory and other peoples works are immensley helpful because it opens up your mind to ideas (like rhythms' date=' key changes, tempo changes) that otherwise you may never have thought of. i reckon playing some covers can be a good thing because its always good to play in another style from normal. it means you will always be more open to adopting a style for some of your own songs which may not have occured to you, therefore giving that piece a distinctly different feel.

of course, if all you learn are 3 chord pop/rock songs this may not help that much......[/quote']

I agree alot with what you said there.

The way i see is its better to know the rules and break them than it is not to know them at all. I'm currently studing music after 4 years of not doing any theory since school and ive found it has helped me heaps. Im self taught on the drums and have played for 6 years and just started drum lessons since starting this course and again i have found that learning the theory behind it all has helped me in terms of techique, ideas and just general playing. But at the same time i dont feel that every musicion needs to have a huge amount of musical knowlage to be good.

On the whole covers issue, im in a pub covers band and have been for 4 years and i dont feel like anyless of a musicion or anything because of it. I dont see any problem in playing covers of other peoples songs if thats the kinda thing the band wants to do. i have taken heaps of ideas from that band into point/stayover and its helped us alot.

[bryn]

i reckon playing some covers can be a good thing because its always good to play in another style from normal. it means you will always be more open to adopting a style for some of your own songs which may not have occured to you' date=' therefore giving that piece a distinctly different feel.[/quote']

So by this theory, you copy someone elses style in order to gain your own original sound?

?(?(?(

I think the key to originality would be never learn someone elses music. Just listen to it as opposed to replicating it.

[The Milner]

So by this theory' date=' you copy someone elses style in order to gain your own original sound?

?(?(?(

I think the key to originality would be never learn someone elses music. Just [i']listen to it as opposed to replicating it.

No what they are trying to say is playing music that maybe isnt the style your band is in or the style you play in normaly can be good as you get ideas that you might not have tried normaly.

this is done in all music tho, im sure almost every style of music has ideas or concepts taken from other styles thats just what happens.

[Danny Doubt]

I barely know how to tune my guitar' date=' I know fuck all...[/quote']

you barely know how to play...lol

[Guest stuartmaxwell]

you barely know how to play...lol

funny that

i was going to say the same thing about you

[Doc Ascension]

...and they're offf....

[ThE bAsS MeKaNiK]

So by this theory' date=' you copy someone elses style in order to gain your own original sound?

?(?(?(

I think the key to originality would be never learn someone elses music. Just [i']listen to it as opposed to replicating it.

i never said anything about copying or replicating other peoples styles. how do you know if your sound is original if you`ve never played someone elses style? arent all the best martial artists those ones who know a few different techniques? arent the best(?!) musicians those who can adapt themselves to numerous different styles?? how can you believe that by NOT playing other peoples musical styles you are automatically original yourself????? seems a bit silly to me....

my 2 cents

[Jimmygoodein]

So by this theory' date=' you copy someone elses style in order to gain your own original sound?

?(?(?(

I think the key to originality would be never learn someone elses music. Just [i']listen to it as opposed to replicating it.

let us think about music as a language for a minute. It would be very hard to try and learn the english language by working from nothing else but yourself, but from being around your family and freinds you pick up the language. WHen your very young its likely you imitate your mum or dad but as you grow older the more things you hear the wider a vocabluary you have and you can pick and choose things to find your own voice.

[Guest stuartmaxwell]

let us think about music as a language for a minute. It would be very hard to try and learn the english language by working from nothing else but yourself' date=' but from being around your family and freinds you pick up the language. WHen your very young its likely you imitate your mum or dad but as you grow older the more things you hear the wider a vocabluary you have and you can pick and choose things to find your own voice.[/quote']

fuck a duck

that is a great point!

[Guest davetherave]

Theory v Play by ear

let us think about music as a language for a minute. It would be very hard to try and learn the english language by working from nothing else but yourself' date=' but from being around your family and freinds you pick up the language. WHen your very young its likely you imitate your mum or dad but as you grow older the more things you hear the wider a vocabluary you have and you can pick and choose things to find your own voice.[/quote']

Damn good analogy. Personally I dont read a note of music as my own belief has always been that music comes from somewhere other than the dots on a page. I appreciate Sight reading is a very useful skill but it needs someone with a good ear for music to play music with real feeling. That feeling and expression comes through absorbing the styles and techniques of as many different musicians as possible. The more you absorb, the more you develop as a player. Bruce Lee once said something like "pour water into the cup, it becomes the cup. Pour water into a bowl it becomes the bowl. Be water!".

Just my own humble opinion, thanks for listening, cheers, Dave.

[Nicola]

This site got me through my music theory! Its not much help if you really wana learn it perfectly, but the summary sheets are ace and the little lesson test thingys are good for memorising key signatures etc

www.musictheory.net