2009/2010 season thread.

[Guest Gladstone]

The points on Celtic/Rangers being "entitled" to play in the EPL weren't really the reason I posted this on here. It was more for a discussion on what would come of the SPL.

The EPL clearly doesn't need us, but at the same time, they could bring in some extra revenue to the EPL because Celtic and Rangers are both global brands, and are big clubs with big worldwide fanbases whether you like it or not.

There's no doubt in my mind that if both teams were in the EPL they'd flourish. The reason they do poorly in Europe most seasons is because of the constraints they have to work within. They are competing against teams with far more money available to them than they can possibly get whilst playing in Scotland. The fact that either team has managed any level of success (by that I mean getting to UEFA finals in recent/semi-recent years, and at getting through the group stages, and beating some very good teams in the CL) is testament to what the teams can acheive with the limited resources they have available. They are constantly outpriced by teams in other countries, and time and time again by teams far less successful, and smaller in stature in England. I don't think this makes Celtic and Rangers small clubs. The amount of money they are both able to generate is astounding to be honest. I don't have any real figures to back this up with, but I'd take a guess that both teams massively outstrip any club outside the top 4 in England in terms of money generated from ticket sales, shirt sales, etc worldwide. The TV money in England is astronomical, and is the main reason that Celtic and Rangers get constantly outpriced by lower table teams.

Saying all that - I don't think that gives them any sort of automatic right to get into the EPL or any division in England.

But, there's nothing stopping it happen if the clubs in England accept the two teams, and whether Celtic and Rangers would be willing to go into the lower leagues. I can't see them being pumped straight into the EPL ever. And there would be a bit of a song and dance if they entered any league other than the lowest league. And, I can't see Rangers or Celtic going for that.

The more I think about it, the less likely I think it will happen.

[Soda Jerk]

The reports I've read are insisting the OF to be placed in League 2. That's certainly much, much closer to the top level than it is to the bottom. If they are to start lower than that, as in the very bottom, then that's a little fairer, but still doesn't sit right and isn't something I'd really want to see happen.

As was explained, the Welsh teams in the English football league weren't because of the teams crying out to play on a bigger stage with bigger prospects so it's certainly a different comparison.

You're saying you wouldn't mind if this and that happened in other leagues that don't really matter to you, but what if it was your league? A couple of astoundingly popular English clubs with the facilities and stability to gradually compete and be a massive force in the Scottish football league? Watching your team possibly get beaten 3 or 4 times a season, or whatever the madcap SPL procedure is, by what is essentially a foreign team from a country you couldn't possibly have any bigger rivalry with? You'd be fine with that? The English FA already refuses to arrange friendlies with Scotland, so for clubs to cross the border and join the other Football association is going to cause uproar from a supporters point of view I'm sure, because football fans are irrational, xenophobic idiots. The only way there could possibly be any more uproar would be if the FA demanded Celtic and Rangers to merge as one club.

Rangers pointing out that West Brom earned a substantial amount more revenue than Rangers did last season has made it exceedingly obvious as to why they want to jump ship. Money. There's no money in the SPL. Plenty in the EPL. OF wants money. Can't the English FA just give them both a heap of money so they'll shut up and fuck off?

[Lemonade]

It would create mayhem if that happened. Clubs from all over Europe would suddenly be wanting to jump ship and play in different leagues, you'd end up with Benfica and Sporting playing in La Liga, Lyon playing in the Bundesliga etc. And then the shit teams would want to jump to smaller leagues so they could start winning stuff, Sheffield Wednesday in the SPL for example.

[Soda Jerk]

From some reason that made me chuckle.

The original Atlantic League plan about 10 years ago was for Rangers, Celtic, Benfica, Sporting, Ajax, PSV and a the top two teams from the Danish, Norwegian and Swedish leagues.

That sounds ace. I'd watch that on telly. It'd be like Pre-Season all year round! They should all build new grounds onto one island too, so it could be a proper domestic league, and all the fans could live there, and be in another country, out of everyones way.

I'm just being a shit now.

[Guest Gladstone]

The reports I've read are insisting the OF to be placed in League 2. That's certainly much, much closer to the top level than it is to the bottom. If they are to start lower than that, as in the very bottom, then that's a little fairer, but still doesn't sit right and isn't something I'd really want to see happen.

As was explained, the Welsh teams in the English football league weren't because of the teams crying out to play on a bigger stage with bigger prospects so it's certainly a different comparison.

You're saying you wouldn't mind if this and that happened in other leagues that don't really matter to you, but what if it was your league? A couple of astoundingly popular English clubs with the facilities and stability to gradually compete and be a massive force in the Scottish football league? Watching your team possibly get beaten 3 or 4 times a season, or whatever the madcap SPL procedure is, by what is essentially a foreign team from a country you couldn't possibly have any bigger rivalry with? You'd be fine with that? The English FA already refuses to arrange friendlies with Scotland, so for clubs to cross the border and join the other Football association is going to cause uproar from a supporters point of view I'm sure, because football fans are irrational, xenophobic idiots. The only way there could possibly be any more uproar would be if the FA demanded Celtic and Rangers to merge as one club.

Rangers pointing out that West Brom earned a substantial amount more revenue than Rangers did last season has made it exceedingly obvious as to why they want to jump ship. Money. There's no money in the SPL. Plenty in the EPL. OF wants money. Can't the English FA just give them both a heap of money so they'll shut up and fuck off?

I actually agree with you, and I'm a Celtic fan.

From a selfish point of view, it would be good for Celtic. How could it not be? Well, unless they got punted into the Conference, but they'd surely be able to climb their way out of there up the leagues. But the main concern would be the ability to hold onto or attract any players, and it's pretty doubtful that 60,000 fans would turn out to Conference matches, so a lot of revenue would be gone, just like that. They would have to get up the leagues mighty quick, to start reaping the benefits.

If they did go into League 2, or Championship or Premiership, I'm sure they'd do well and flourish. But as you say, it would be massively unfair on the English clubs. We are hated enough in Scotland as it is, but if we went in and started doing well at the expense of English clubs, we'd be hated even more.

And, I agree on the motivation being one of a money one. I would like to think that the desire for more cash is a means to an end. The end being the ability to compete at the very highest level, something they just can't do in today's climate with the pish money they get from playing in Scotland. But I suspect guys like Martin Bain et al. would be up for lining their own pockets quite handsomely whilst they were at it.

As much as I'd like to see Celtic in there competing against Premiership teams, and having a chance of doing well in Europe etc due to the extra cash, it would be shit not getting to play Aberdeen or Hearts, or Hibs, Dundee Utd etc.

I think the problem in Scotland more than anything is that it is fucking boring. We play the same 8 or so teams plus another couple who go up and down the leagues every few years 3 times each, and the catastrophe that is the "split" means we get to play 5 of these teams an extra time each.

We should play in a 16, maybe 18 team league, and play each other once at home, once away. Winter break because the winter is fucking murder in Scotland anyway. It would make every single game more important. Celtic lost to Rangers at the weekend, but I don't really give a shit. We're still a point ahead, and still have to play them 3 times. Twice at home. It would make the home game far more important if we got beat in the only away game.

I don't want to play in England anymore, let's sort the fucking SPL out instead of trying to join someone else's league because they're doing it better.

[scottyboy]

The reports I've read are insisting the OF to be placed in League 2. That's certainly much, much closer to the top level than it is to the bottom. If they are to start lower than that, as in the very bottom, then that's a little fairer, but still doesn't sit right and isn't something I'd really want to see happen.

As was explained, the Welsh teams in the English football league weren't because of the teams crying out to play on a bigger stage with bigger prospects so it's certainly a different comparison.

You're saying you wouldn't mind if this and that happened in other leagues that don't really matter to you, but what if it was your league? A couple of astoundingly popular English clubs with the facilities and stability to gradually compete and be a massive force in the Scottish football league? Watching your team possibly get beaten 3 or 4 times a season, or whatever the madcap SPL procedure is, by what is essentially a foreign team from a country you couldn't possibly have any bigger rivalry with? You'd be fine with that? The English FA already refuses to arrange friendlies with Scotland, so for clubs to cross the border and join the other Football association is going to cause uproar from a supporters point of view I'm sure, because football fans are irrational, xenophobic idiots. The only way there could possibly be any more uproar would be if the FA demanded Celtic and Rangers to merge as one club.

Rangers pointing out that West Brom earned a substantial amount more revenue than Rangers did last season has made it exceedingly obvious as to why they want to jump ship. Money. There's no money in the SPL. Plenty in the EPL. OF wants money. Can't the English FA just give them both a heap of money so they'll shut up and fuck off?

The analogy is ludicrous though. There is more money to be made in the EPL (or the Championship) so no team will ever wish to join the SPL from the EPL/Championship. It's perfectly fine that the OF want money, as does every other club. Sporting (at least in football) success in now inextricably linked to commercial success (unless the club becomes some billionaire's hobby). There is demand for "clubs with big stadiums" in small leagues to play in bigger, more lucrative leagues. An Atlantic league is unworkable for geographical reasons whereas Celtic going to England isn't much different from fans travelling around Germany or Japan or wherever (I totally disagree that English and Scottish clubs are essentially foreign). You're basically just saying that your opposition is based on xenophobia and protectionism masquerading as some sort of sporting purism (as is anyone's south of the Border, since there is a fair amount of money at stake...).

[delboy]

I've just thought of a cracking idea, why not put the old firm in the english league system and two of the teams close to scotland - carlisle and newcastle, say, in the scottish league. the toon army would love it, they'd have much more of a chance of actually winning something!!! i'm japing btw.

the old firm are big clubs, they have massive home attendences on the same level as the biggest english clubs. and they are both global brands, its a good idea in theory to have them in the english system but complicated how it would actually work, maybe on the same lines as how the welsh clubs operate in england.

even sticking them in at league 2 is unfair for the clubs down there but i just cant see it happening. another idea is maybe they'll get a premier league division 1 which has been talked about before and they could enter that.

if the OF left the scottish system it could make the league very exciting as it would be completely open and another idea touting around was the OF would play their under 21 sides in the SPL, that might work.

John Barnes - what a loser!!! why doesnt he accept he's useless at management (bar a few games as boss of jamaica against rubbish opposition) and just as shite at tv presenting - hope channel five dont give him his old job back. decent player in his day mind.

[delboy]

I actually agree with you, and I'm a Celtic fan.

From a selfish point of view, it would be good for Celtic. How could it not be? Well, unless they got punted into the Conference, but they'd surely be able to climb their way out of there up the leagues. But the main concern would be the ability to hold onto or attract any players, and it's pretty doubtful that 60,000 fans would turn out to Conference matches, so a lot of revenue would be gone, just like that. They would have to get up the leagues mighty quick, to start reaping the benefits.

If they did go into League 2, or Championship or Premiership, I'm sure they'd do well and flourish. But as you say, it would be massively unfair on the English clubs. We are hated enough in Scotland as it is, but if we went in and started doing well at the expense of English clubs, we'd be hated even more.

And, I agree on the motivation being one of a money one. I would like to think that the desire for more cash is a means to an end. The end being the ability to compete at the very highest level, something they just can't do in today's climate with the pish money they get from playing in Scotland. But I suspect guys like Martin Bain et al. would be up for lining their own pockets quite handsomely whilst they were at it.

As much as I'd like to see Celtic in there competing against Premiership teams, and having a chance of doing well in Europe etc due to the extra cash, it would be shit not getting to play Aberdeen or Hearts, or Hibs, Dundee Utd etc.

I think the problem in Scotland more than anything is that it is fucking boring. We play the same 8 or so teams plus another couple who go up and down the leagues every few years 3 times each, and the catastrophe that is the "split" means we get to play 5 of these teams an extra time each.

We should play in a 16, maybe 18 team league, and play each other once at home, once away. Winter break because the winter is fucking murder in Scotland anyway. It would make every single game more important. Celtic lost to Rangers at the weekend, but I don't really give a shit. We're still a point ahead, and still have to play them 3 times. Twice at home. It would make the home game far more important if we got beat in the only away game.

I don't want to play in England anymore, let's sort the fucking SPL out instead of trying to join someone else's league because they're doing it better.

i think you made some really good points there... whats wrong with the conference?? everything actually, there's no way the old firm would compete at that level it would be madness considoring a lot of teams cant handle a few hundred cambridge fans! league 2 would be ok as most the teams in there have decent stadia and could accomodate the away support.

i think you make excellent points about the scottish league system. this playing each other 3/4 times a season (plus possibly in cups) is indeed boring. it needs to be rebranded and rethought out. and scrap the split nonsense and get the winter break back. a 16 team play each other twice a season sounds good with 3 up 3 down from division 1.

[stuartmaxwell]

can montrose win their first game tomorrow at Annan?

fingers bloody crossed.

HOOLICKIN YA MUTANT!

[Guest Gladstone]

BBC SPORT | Football | My Club | T | Tranmere | Tranmere sack Barnes and McAteer

John Barnes is full of amazing ideas, and is way ahead of his time.

It's just a shame none of his players have a fucking clue what he's saying.

[Lemonade]

Calum, for the record, could you possibly remind me what club you support? Cos I don't think you've mentioned it yet.

What's that? Cloud's living in Poland?

[Guest Gladstone]

Calum, for the record, could you possibly remind me what club you support? Cos I don't think you've mentioned it yet.

What's that? Cloud's living in Poland?

Jesus fuck. Have I said it that many times?

Rangers, through and through me.

[Soda Jerk]

The analogy is ludicrous though. There is more money to be made in the EPL (or the Championship) so no team will ever wish to join the SPL from the EPL/Championship. It's perfectly fine that the OF want money, as does every other club. Sporting (at least in football) success in now inextricably linked to commercial success (unless the club becomes some billionaire's hobby). There is demand for "clubs with big stadiums" in small leagues to play in bigger, more lucrative leagues. An Atlantic league is unworkable for geographical reasons whereas Celtic going to England isn't much different from fans travelling around Germany or Japan or wherever (I totally disagree that English and Scottish clubs are essentially foreign). You're basically just saying that your opposition is based on xenophobia and protectionism masquerading as some sort of sporting purism (as is anyone's south of the Border, since there is a fair amount of money at stake...).

It's not an analogy. It's just turning the tables and asking how you, or any other follower of Scottish football would feel if English teams invaded their league. The comparison isn't about money to be made or whatever. It's about how SPL followers would feel about an English side challenging for their domestic honours. I'm certain it wouldn't sit well, just like I'm certain it's not going to sit well with English supporting football fans, like me. Come on. Think about it. if SPL was the domineering force in football over the EPL, and our skint, hopeless Man United and Chelsea were knocking on the door asking to play better, well paid football with the big boys across the border, you'd be telling them where to go in a shot. Scottish football fans would be having none of it, I predict.

Jumping ship to England is the SFA pretty much admitting that the SPL has a problem, and they haven't got the foggiest on how to fix it, or they are looking down on the EPL and thinking "sigh, their's is better". Their top flight makes no money, and by pushing their only hopes of success to another Football Association is as if the SFA have completly given up on sorting their own league out. I predict that if this switch did happen, there would be far less Scots playing for the old firm, and as a result, the SFA and even the national side could reap the consequences. Surely, as a result you would lose European slots and your seed in Europe, dropping the League Champion into the preliminary rounds of the qualifiers. It just looks like bad news all round for Scottish Football as a top flight.

I think what I'm mostly trying to say is, is that we don't want any fucking Huns in England. I guess we don't mind Celtic. But Rangers are like the Leeds United of Scotland. Nob'dy likes yer.

[Lemonade]

Jesus fuck. Have I said it that many times?

Rangers, through and through me.

No mate, you've hardly mentioned it.

We now have Kenny Miller for this.

EDIT: But the little ned always fucking scores against Celtic. Cunt.

Ugo Ehiogu. Another cunt that scored against Celtic. With a spectacular overhead kick no less.

BBC SPORT | Football | Scottish Premier | Ref Thomson admits Old Firm error

Jesus. Just seen this - can't believe that wasn't given!

BBC SPORT | Football | My Club | C | Celtic | Lawwell upbeat on Old Firm exit

The age old "Old Firm in the EPL" debate.

What's everyone think of this?

I'm a Celtic fan, and I think Celtic would do well out of this if it happened.

I actually agree with you, and I'm a Celtic fan.

From a selfish point of view, it would be good for Celtic.

[Soda Jerk]

Celtic

Celtic

Celtic

Celtic

Celtic

Celtic

I just wanted to join in.

[captain burrito]

Berwick Rangers play in the Scottish leagues.

Gretna used to play in England.

Not as big a deal as the OF, but still...

[Lemonade]

In fact I've got a picture of Carrots from that gig we played with the Underkills that time.

[Guest Gladstone]

You promised never to post that pic on the internet.

Cunt.

[soundian]

I think if the OF fuck off to England then Scotland's euro co-efficient is going to swiftly drop to the level where representatives of far-east betting syndicates start turning up in Scottish airports clutching brown envelopes stuffed with cash.

[scottyboy]

It's not an analogy. It's just turning the tables and asking how you, or any other follower of Scottish football would feel if English teams invaded their league. The comparison isn't about money to be made or whatever. It's about how SPL followers would feel about an English side challenging for their domestic honours. I'm certain it wouldn't sit well, just like I'm certain it's not going to sit well with English supporting football fans, like me. Come on. Think about it. if SPL was the domineering force in football over the EPL, and our skint, hopeless Man United and Chelsea were knocking on the door asking to play better, well paid football with the big boys across the border, you'd be telling them where to go in a shot. Scottish football fans would be having none of it, I predict.

Jumping ship to England is the SFA pretty much admitting that the SPL has a problem, and they haven't got the foggiest on how to fix it, or they are looking down on the EPL and thinking "sigh, their's is better". Their top flight makes no money, and by pushing their only hopes of success to another Football Association is as if the SFA have completly given up on sorting their own league out. I predict that if this switch did happen, there would be far less Scots playing for the old firm, and as a result, the SFA and even the national side could reap the consequences. Surely, as a result you would lose European slots and your seed in Europe, dropping the League Champion into the preliminary rounds of the qualifiers. It just looks like bad news all round for Scottish Football as a top flight.

I think what I'm mostly trying to say is, is that we don't want any fucking Huns in England. I guess we don't mind Celtic. But Rangers are like the Leeds United of Scotland. Nob'dy likes yer.

A comparison to a hypothetical situation in order to further your argument is, I'm pretty sure, an analogy but anyway... In principle I am fine with English teams competing in the Scottish league. One of the two horses already fills the ground with union jacks and Rule Britannia so I don't see what further damage Man United or West Brom could do.

It doesn't really matter whether the SPL would benefit or lose from Celtic/Rangers leaving. The fate -commercial, sporting or both- of other clubs in Scotland shouldn't be Celtic's problem. I would also trade a theoretical possibility of automatic CL qualification for a competitive division in a second, since Dundee United aren't likely to grab a CL spot with the OF in the way.

The SFA hasn't given any hint of support to Celtic's proposal. Again half the BBC article is about the SFA desperately trying to talk up the SPL and why Celtic should want to be part of it.

[Nev]

We're trying to sign John Stewart.

Fuck that RIGHT off!

[Scootray]

I think the best thing for Scottish football is to make the "top-flight" with 16/18 teams. It just needs that something extra, because as it's been said already, the SPL is as dull as watching paint dry. If you've got the smaller teams involved, then I think the standard of Scottish football will improve. You've got these young Scottish guys playing week in, week out in a more competitive environment and facing the likes of Rangers and Celtic at least twice a year for a bit of extra gate receipts.

It would take a bit of time to reap results but I think ultimately it would be worth it.

As for the winter break, bring it back. It's practically in force anyway with the amount of games that get cancelled by the weather so what's so wrong with bringing it back? Gordon Smith needs to get his head out of his blue shitty arse and start doing his job properly. Cunt.

[Sam 45]

We're trying to sign John Stewart.

Fuck that RIGHT off!

Man City?

[Murrr]

Man City?

Junkie John lining up with Tevez and Adebayor? Absolutely tremendous.

He's clearly not talking about Peterheid.

[delboy]

back to the realities of tin pot conference "football" this afternoon with a 'home banker' against a poor, struggling Ebbsfleet side. If we dont win today, Martin Ling we be under a bit of pressure already, no win in four and raped by another struggling side Grays Athletic the other week then conceded a late goal to the village idiots from Histon last sunday to get a hardly deserved draw.

We've not been the same since throwing away a two goal lead against ten men Luton Town a couple of weeks ago. It's gonna be a long hard season methinks!

Oh and England playing later but I really dont give a shite...